Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Fair enough Tim, but if you yourself are asking what Doc Bob doe's all day then how can you say that he is'nt worth the money? I know i havnt a clue what he has brought to the project so im sure as hell aint qualified to comment so what makes you ? And i would assume it's its a hell of a lot more than you.
Oh and it wasnt sarcasm Tim, it was a genuine question.
Gregg
Oh and it wasnt sarcasm Tim, it was a genuine question.
Gregg
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And thats my point Tim! seeing as you dont know what he does then he is just as likely to deserve his earnings as not, yet you see fit to
criticise ! thats the same as you saying im not tworth the money i earn without knowing how much i earn or what i do to earn it!!
Simply put you are not in a position to comment on his value for money when you admit to not haveing any idea what he does. When you do know what he does then feel free to comment so untill then may i respectfully suggest you follow Beagles advice.
criticise ! thats the same as you saying im not tworth the money i earn without knowing how much i earn or what i do to earn it!!
Simply put you are not in a position to comment on his value for money when you admit to not haveing any idea what he does. When you do know what he does then feel free to comment so untill then may i respectfully suggest you follow Beagles advice.
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I certainly am with Tim on this. I have it on very good authority as to what Dr. P. is paid.
Sadly, I have given my word not to reveal the amount, but in my opinion, Tim's critiscisms are very justified!!!!
Sadly, I have given my word not to reveal the amount, but in my opinion, Tim's critiscisms are very justified!!!!
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If you can't give details because you have given your word, then why bring it up in the first place 
. With all due respect, either give your source or just don't mention it, all it does is stir up bad feelings 
.
. With all due respect, either give your source or just don't mention it, all it does is stir up bad feelings .
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The issue here of course is that as they are a charitable organisation it is not their money, they are merely trustees and as such are accountable.
Nobody knows what anyone does all day, but we are entitled to know. Apart from donated funds from the public the taxpayers money has gone into the project as well as shareholders funds from other private companies.
Isn't it the same as always, everyone really just wants the whole truth, good bad or ugly?
Nobody knows what anyone does all day, but we are entitled to know. Apart from donated funds from the public the taxpayers money has gone into the project as well as shareholders funds from other private companies.
Isn't it the same as always, everyone really just wants the whole truth, good bad or ugly?
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Good point and yes they do want the truth, but untill it is revealed how much they are paid then everything else is hearsay, i have lots of things on good authority but unless it comes direct from the organisation then i wouldnt even hint at knowing it, sadly this thread and others on other forums just shows that people have personal issues with the organisation which for many taints what they have to say.
The point i keep making to Tim which he chooses to ignore is that unless he knows what Dr bob spends his working hours doing and what he has achieved within the set up and exactly how much he is paid then Tim is not in a position to shout out on her or anywhere else that Dr Bob is or isnt worth the money he may or not be paid.
That would be the same as me saying that Tims books are utter pants and not worth the money paid for them without me reading them! which i havnt so i cant say that can i? And to be perfectly frank with you all i would have expected better coming from someone in his position.
The point i keep making to Tim which he chooses to ignore is that unless he knows what Dr bob spends his working hours doing and what he has achieved within the set up and exactly how much he is paid then Tim is not in a position to shout out on her or anywhere else that Dr Bob is or isnt worth the money he may or not be paid.
That would be the same as me saying that Tims books are utter pants and not worth the money paid for them without me reading them! which i havnt so i cant say that can i? And to be perfectly frank with you all i would have expected better coming from someone in his position.
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Andrew....Nobody knows what anyone does all day, but we are entitled to know. Apart from donated funds from the public
Surely the public in general are happy? they have seen their investment fly..
the taxpayers money has gone into the project
What taxpayers money? may I ask as I understand it there has been no direct support from the govenment for this project
As for the lottery... they have gone on record as saying that the VTST project has been a resounding success as far as they are concerned because it is one of their 1 in 4 projects that actually was completed.... VTS's remit was to return the aircraft to "Full Working Order" not flight, which they did very successfully
The accounts say nobody earned more than what was it? £60,000? well if Dr Pleming was taking what you suggest how much did that leave for the rest... assuming the Senior Managers are on £60K & engineering staff are on industry wage levels.. not a lot I fancy.
I have been doing a little research...1 CEO (?), 2 Senior Managers (60k a piece?)..... 5 engineers(?)............. wonder how the salaries cake is devided among the rest?
The 3 Logistics, 3 office staff, 1 access, 1 education?
Surely the public in general are happy? they have seen their investment fly..
the taxpayers money has gone into the project
What taxpayers money? may I ask as I understand it there has been no direct support from the govenment for this project
As for the lottery... they have gone on record as saying that the VTST project has been a resounding success as far as they are concerned because it is one of their 1 in 4 projects that actually was completed.... VTS's remit was to return the aircraft to "Full Working Order" not flight, which they did very successfully
The accounts say nobody earned more than what was it? £60,000? well if Dr Pleming was taking what you suggest how much did that leave for the rest... assuming the Senior Managers are on £60K & engineering staff are on industry wage levels.. not a lot I fancy.
I have been doing a little research...1 CEO (?), 2 Senior Managers (60k a piece?)..... 5 engineers(?)............. wonder how the salaries cake is devided among the rest?
The 3 Logistics, 3 office staff, 1 access, 1 education?
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The bottom line is that HLF invested money in the project on behalf of the "populace" including gift aid money courtesy of the taxpayer whichever way you dice it up.
Saying working order not flight is splitting hairs as the pitch in the HLF bid was to return it to flight for x years, not one. The HLF are hardly going to say anything other than positive things.
That's all academic however. It's not even a question of "are they worth it?". It is a charitable trust and they are required to be accountable, whether they like it or lump it. I could care less who is paid what if it is shown to be value, it's up to them to show value. Personally, if the project is well run and efficient pay whatever the going rate is. They haven't demonstrated that they have run things efficiently.
If they can and do, spot on and good luck to all for getting paid what they are worth.
The challenge is continually convincing the public to donate and surely they have to show the money will be well spent in doing so. The solution is in the hands of the trust. Publicise their uptodate accounts, give a detailed business plan and progress reports (beyond "we're confident" or "we're all doomed unless").
Whilst the winter is upon us, get some info out and re-enthuse everyone or they will surely loose out on potential donors and that may affect the projects viability.
Saying working order not flight is splitting hairs as the pitch in the HLF bid was to return it to flight for x years, not one. The HLF are hardly going to say anything other than positive things.
That's all academic however. It's not even a question of "are they worth it?". It is a charitable trust and they are required to be accountable, whether they like it or lump it. I could care less who is paid what if it is shown to be value, it's up to them to show value. Personally, if the project is well run and efficient pay whatever the going rate is. They haven't demonstrated that they have run things efficiently.
If they can and do, spot on and good luck to all for getting paid what they are worth.
The challenge is continually convincing the public to donate and surely they have to show the money will be well spent in doing so. The solution is in the hands of the trust. Publicise their uptodate accounts, give a detailed business plan and progress reports (beyond "we're confident" or "we're all doomed unless").
Whilst the winter is upon us, get some info out and re-enthuse everyone or they will surely loose out on potential donors and that may affect the projects viability.
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My God you're hard work bubbles !
Okay, one more try...
It's like this - Pleming has taken (and continues to take) a huge amount of money out of the project's funds. That much is a fact. Regardless of whether you have details of precisely how much he has been paid, and when, and for what, the published figures ought to be enough to convince you that it's a hideously large sum, yes?
Okay, well do you not think that given the circumstances of the project, Pleming has a duty to explain in the fullest terms what, precisely, he does in exchange for this money? Given that he continually avoids providing an explanation, does it not seem odd to you?
Likewise, do you not think that, even given the best will in the world, the amount of money he's taken cannot possibly be justified? Surely you're not seriously suggesting that someone who has merely overseen an aircraft restoration project and done some (spectacularly unsuccessful) fund raising is actually entitled to anything approaching the amounts of money that appear to have gone his way?
I truly am astonished that so many people (and particularly the aerospace media) have failed to address this matter. It's quite amazing that when so much cyber space and print media has been devoted to endless discussion of how cash-starved the project is, nobody has stopped to ask why so much of the money raised hasn't even been spent on the Vulcan at all.
Okay, one more try...
It's like this - Pleming has taken (and continues to take) a huge amount of money out of the project's funds. That much is a fact. Regardless of whether you have details of precisely how much he has been paid, and when, and for what, the published figures ought to be enough to convince you that it's a hideously large sum, yes?
Okay, well do you not think that given the circumstances of the project, Pleming has a duty to explain in the fullest terms what, precisely, he does in exchange for this money? Given that he continually avoids providing an explanation, does it not seem odd to you?
Likewise, do you not think that, even given the best will in the world, the amount of money he's taken cannot possibly be justified? Surely you're not seriously suggesting that someone who has merely overseen an aircraft restoration project and done some (spectacularly unsuccessful) fund raising is actually entitled to anything approaching the amounts of money that appear to have gone his way?
I truly am astonished that so many people (and particularly the aerospace media) have failed to address this matter. It's quite amazing that when so much cyber space and print media has been devoted to endless discussion of how cash-starved the project is, nobody has stopped to ask why so much of the money raised hasn't even been spent on the Vulcan at all.
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Tim
if you were to actually see what is being said to you with an open mind and drop the grudge you hold you would see what i am saying, and that is that untill you and i and everyone else knows for sure what Doc bob earns and what he has done to earn that money then neither you or i or anybody else is in a position to judge weather he is worth the money or not. This however has not stopped you from on more than one occasion saying that his earnings are not justifiable, Just exactly how can you say this? Do you know what he has brought to the project? do you know exactly how much he has earned from the project?
if you were to actually see what is being said to you with an open mind and drop the grudge you hold you would see what i am saying, and that is that untill you and i and everyone else knows for sure what Doc bob earns and what he has done to earn that money then neither you or i or anybody else is in a position to judge weather he is worth the money or not. This however has not stopped you from on more than one occasion saying that his earnings are not justifiable, Just exactly how can you say this? Do you know what he has brought to the project? do you know exactly how much he has earned from the project?
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Bubbles,
It states in the public accounts what he and his company earned, nobody is guessing at it.
Tim, forget that it's Dr P. It doesn't matter. The point is whoever earns it must be justifiable and accountable.
Thus far, there is no justifications issued for any of their spending / salaries. It perplexes me apart from fees / salaries that they ran at A SURPLUS for two years and even then wrote off the fat end of £100k on pursuing merchandising. What the heck is that all about?
It states in the public accounts what he and his company earned, nobody is guessing at it.
Tim, forget that it's Dr P. It doesn't matter. The point is whoever earns it must be justifiable and accountable.
Thus far, there is no justifications issued for any of their spending / salaries. It perplexes me apart from fees / salaries that they ran at A SURPLUS for two years and even then wrote off the fat end of £100k on pursuing merchandising. What the heck is that all about?
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I know it says it in the accounts, but my point is that Tim cannot say without knowing for sure that the wages are not justified, im not saying they are but unless we know what the individuals have brought to the project then the wages are just as likely justified as un-justified, this seems lost on Tim.
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Agreed. However, any salary of anything to anyone needs to be justifiable. The worry I have is that the trustees seem to have taken the role of private company directors.
They are guardians of the trusts money and need to go the xtra mile to be clear and transparent particularly with such large sums of money and need to be very clear to avoid anyone, including Dr P, having a conflict of interests.
It's the same story sadly. Publish the acocunts, explain them, have an AGM where everyone can ask their awkward questions etc and stand up and be accountable. Or, offer some other such forum more discreetly, either way, be answerable for their actions on behalf of everyone.
If Dr P or the tea lady is worth their salaries then good luck, it shouldn't be personal. Likewise the major decision in the accounts seems to be to reach an arrangement with creditors, primarily MA, to effectively mortgage future surpluses to pay off the debts. Might be a smart decision but we don't have the benefit of being able to ask and make sure.
I hope they wake up and follow their own advice aboute being more communicative before it is too late. I recall asking the same questions of FI when she was there, offering to go down to meet her and publish the questions and answers anyone wanted asked unedited and she declined. Not much has really changed on the management side although credit, the staff and engineering team have been nothing short of superb and hats off to them.
Best wishes to all for 2009.
They are guardians of the trusts money and need to go the xtra mile to be clear and transparent particularly with such large sums of money and need to be very clear to avoid anyone, including Dr P, having a conflict of interests.
It's the same story sadly. Publish the acocunts, explain them, have an AGM where everyone can ask their awkward questions etc and stand up and be accountable. Or, offer some other such forum more discreetly, either way, be answerable for their actions on behalf of everyone.
If Dr P or the tea lady is worth their salaries then good luck, it shouldn't be personal. Likewise the major decision in the accounts seems to be to reach an arrangement with creditors, primarily MA, to effectively mortgage future surpluses to pay off the debts. Might be a smart decision but we don't have the benefit of being able to ask and make sure.
I hope they wake up and follow their own advice aboute being more communicative before it is too late. I recall asking the same questions of FI when she was there, offering to go down to meet her and publish the questions and answers anyone wanted asked unedited and she declined. Not much has really changed on the management side although credit, the staff and engineering team have been nothing short of superb and hats off to them.
Best wishes to all for 2009.
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Think you're wasting your time there Andrew, it's kinda like hitting your head against a brick wall. I assume everybody else grasps what you and I have been saying so maybe we should leave it at that?!
Ah the dear Felicity... I used to tell myself that she was the root of TVOC's problems, but...
Ah the dear Felicity... I used to tell myself that she was the root of TVOC's problems, but...
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Yes your quite right Tim it is exactly like hitting ones head off a wall, im not saying that any ones wage is justified what i have been asking you is how can you say that Doc Bobs wage is not justified? as we have no clear idea of what he has done in his time with the project then nobody can say that his earnings are or not justified, yet you completley ignore what i am saying as it is not agreeing with you. Till you know for sure what he has achieved then you cant really say that he ( or anyone else) is/is'nt worth his pay.
I also have not at any time disagreed with those that have said that open accounts etc are needed to show that our money has been used properly. Your attitude to others on various fora is really letting you down and had you simply answerd my original question with a straight answer theni wouldnt keep "carping" on.
I also have not at any time disagreed with those that have said that open accounts etc are needed to show that our money has been used properly. Your attitude to others on various fora is really letting you down and had you simply answerd my original question with a straight answer theni wouldnt keep "carping" on.
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Very surprising that PPrune allows Tim's constant personal bashing of an award-winning member of the preservation movement to go on like this. It's so blatantly a personal grudge - Tim has been asked repeatedly to back up his mumblings about financial cloak and daggery, but always weasels out of doing so.
In Tim's world, raising 7 million quid is 'spectacularly unsuccessful fund raising'.
That, on its own, says it all I think.
Happy new year to all at Brunters - I look forward to another year of airshow appearances from an aircraft Tim would like to see exported to another country.
In Tim's world, raising 7 million quid is 'spectacularly unsuccessful fund raising'.
That, on its own, says it all I think.
Happy new year to all at Brunters - I look forward to another year of airshow appearances from an aircraft Tim would like to see exported to another country.
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Kieron Kirk
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Should I see the continued sniping and point scoring on PPRuNe, I for one will just call it a day and walk away as I find it irritating and pointless.
Tempsford
I'll join you.
Ciarain.
Please, those who wish to endlessly rake over what has already been written before, do it somewhere else.
I for one am SICK of it!
Ciarain.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Should I see the continued sniping and point scoring on PPRuNe, I for one will just call it a day and walk away as I find it irritating and pointless.
Tempsford
I'll join you.
Ciarain.
Please, those who wish to endlessly rake over what has already been written before, do it somewhere else.
I for one am SICK of it!
Ciarain.
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Tim wind your neck in a bit.
Haven't we established that we all (of those contributing to this debate anyway) want open and transparent accounting and disclosure of material facts.
Irrespective of what they spent the money on lets just see some clarity and openness, nothing more or less. If that produces issues then they can be debated. At the moment there are obviously some issues some people want answers about but thus far we don't have them, so let's not make it personal.
How do we get answers to these issues? Anyone got practical ideas or suggestions?
Haven't we established that we all (of those contributing to this debate anyway) want open and transparent accounting and disclosure of material facts.
Irrespective of what they spent the money on lets just see some clarity and openness, nothing more or less. If that produces issues then they can be debated. At the moment there are obviously some issues some people want answers about but thus far we don't have them, so let's not make it personal.
How do we get answers to these issues? Anyone got practical ideas or suggestions?
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OK! That is enough.
This witch hunt will stop forthwith.
There may be a shred of truth here and there but that is not cause to engage in sniping and backbiting - especially the winding up kind. One or two of you are pressing hard to gain home runs. Just cut it out and be constructive.
If I see one more example of this occuring again, no matter how trivial, I will ban you/he/she from participating in this thread. No warnings, no explanations - nothing - you will be gone. I trust that is fully understood.
I am sick that some good people have been driven out and are no longer contributing - I plan to get them back.
PPP
This witch hunt will stop forthwith.
There may be a shred of truth here and there but that is not cause to engage in sniping and backbiting - especially the winding up kind. One or two of you are pressing hard to gain home runs. Just cut it out and be constructive.
If I see one more example of this occuring again, no matter how trivial, I will ban you/he/she from participating in this thread. No warnings, no explanations - nothing - you will be gone. I trust that is fully understood.
I am sick that some good people have been driven out and are no longer contributing - I plan to get them back.
PPP