Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
Cunning Artificer
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...the most stunning military event of the twentieth century...
Operation Overlord didn't amount to much then... Nor Hiroshima...
I take it they no longer teach history at school.
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Help us Save The Vulcan
In brief, Vin de Terre Ltd (Spalding) has joined the challange to help raise the required funds and in an attempt to do our bit we have launched a special Wine just for the Vulcan.
100% of the profits will be going to the project!
We thought this would be a great chance to raise some money for the project whist offering the 'customer' a rewarding and commemorate bottle of wine.
We know this is just one of the many ways to raise money and the road ahead is indeed challanging. But our strong ties to the RAF and our determination to do all we can is hopefully going to help raise some much needed funds.
In anycase you can find our more here and maybe pass this link around to other supporters, or wine lovers.
We all sincerely hope this is not the end of the road and we certainly shall be working desperatly to raise every penny we can.
See us tonight/tomorrow on Calendar news and this weekend on Lincs FM!
I hope everyone can keep their heads up and lets all pull in the same direction!
All the best
Tom
www.SAVETHEVULCAN.co.uk
100% of the profits will be going to the project!
We thought this would be a great chance to raise some money for the project whist offering the 'customer' a rewarding and commemorate bottle of wine.
We know this is just one of the many ways to raise money and the road ahead is indeed challanging. But our strong ties to the RAF and our determination to do all we can is hopefully going to help raise some much needed funds.
In anycase you can find our more here and maybe pass this link around to other supporters, or wine lovers.
We all sincerely hope this is not the end of the road and we certainly shall be working desperatly to raise every penny we can.
See us tonight/tomorrow on Calendar news and this weekend on Lincs FM!
I hope everyone can keep their heads up and lets all pull in the same direction!
All the best
Tom
www.SAVETHEVULCAN.co.uk
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floppy arms,
a great idea, but I'm not sure I can drink enough wine to get the £1,000,000 (or whatever the amount is today) needed by the end of the month!!
Might have fun trying tho'
Kind regards
TSM
a great idea, but I'm not sure I can drink enough wine to get the £1,000,000 (or whatever the amount is today) needed by the end of the month!!
Might have fun trying tho'
Kind regards
TSM
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I'm afraid I can't post-up details of private correspondence but I will of course let you know any important points - I'm awaiting a further reply from Dr. Pleming at present, as I'm trying to get the details as clear as possible. Like everyone, I'm tired of trying to see through the proverbial smoke and haze!
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Thats a bit off side Tim isn't it?
You let us all know that you have a letter from Pleming, with concrete news and saying that things aren't as bad as they appear, and then tell us you cannot disclose anything!
Why not? is it Top Secret? Commercial in Confidence? What?
Come on, things are reportedly pretty bleak, I should of thought that now is the time to bring things out in the open in a last-gask effort to recover the situation.
The Winco
You let us all know that you have a letter from Pleming, with concrete news and saying that things aren't as bad as they appear, and then tell us you cannot disclose anything!
Why not? is it Top Secret? Commercial in Confidence? What?
Come on, things are reportedly pretty bleak, I should of thought that now is the time to bring things out in the open in a last-gask effort to recover the situation.
The Winco
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It just so happens that I've received more information a few minutes ago. I can't post-up personal correspondence as that would be most unfair (and of course, it's not going to encourage TVOC to tell us much, is it?!). Anyway, this is how the situation seems to be:-
Yes, they do need another 250k to keep going and Dr Pleming thinks they might well be able to get this much cash by the end of the month. They have indeed issued redundancy notices because they're obliged to - the project has to be wound-up at the end of the month if the money isn't found, otherwise the Trust has to go into insolvency.
If the 250k figure isn't reached, then the aircraft's future has to be reviewed. There appears to be some possibility of putting the whole project "on hold" but of course even keeping the aircraft in suspended animation would cost yet more money, and make the ultimate goal drift further away.
The key to the project would seem to be the HLF people. Having already put so much cash into the project, it seems crazy that they can't add just a little bit more to see it through - if they don't, then all of their cash is wasted. Pleming says that the HLF will not supply any more cash without a policy decision from the top. Personally, I think this is where TVOC and others ought to be putting pressure on HLF. It is, after all, our money that they are going to be wasting if they don't cough-up another 250k (or less).
David Walton is charging TVOC hangar/storage rent and will continue to do so. I find this quite astonishing, but Pleming points-out that the rest of the hangar is a money-making asset (B&Q etc), but you'd think that of all people, Walton would have helped by waiving such charges... it seems not, and this is where a substantial amount of cash has gone. A staggering 275k so far and another 15k a month from here onwards. Absolutely mind-numbing, isn't it?
Richard Branson has been approached repeatedly but he's evidently not interested. Marshall's are doing the work but they're doing nothing for free - quite the opposite in fact and they're treating the project as a purely commercial venture. Likewise, Rolls Royce are doing nothing and are in fact one of the most expensive parts of the project. British Aerospace is helping by taking-on liability for free, but the boss doesn't want to offer any more financial support than that (even though it sounds like other BAe people do). So these Great British institutions aren't helping at all - in fact they're all busy making a fast buck! Shabby in the extreme...
Pleming also accepts that marketing and promotion has not been as good as it could have been, but like everyone else, he thinks it would be awful if we're left with "a useless hulk" at the end of this month after so much cash has been thrown at the project.
So there we are... not dead and buried just yet, but with three weeks to find about 200k, it's hanging in the balance. You'd think that somebody, somewhere, could find this cash. I really don't know what we can do at this late stage. To add to the problems, Pleming is ill and is going into hospital next week! Out of all this, I find it surprising and vaguely disgusting that key players like Marshalls (who are only too happy to crow about their achievements when it suits them) are doing nothing to support the project other than taking a very hefty fee. Likewise, Rolls Royce of all people, are busy making cash out of the project - shameful. I'm also amazed that when Walton bought the aircraft in the first place, he sees fit to take huge amounts of money just to keep the aircraft on his property. What kind of benefactor is that?!
But worst of all, it seems quite bizarre that after giving 2.7 million, the HLF can't hand-out another 250k to keep the project alive, and thereby avoid wasting their original investment. Absolute madness, and I would have thought that this is the key subject that someone ought to be highlighting in the media. It needs someone with some clout to get the project into the national media, instead of skulking around in local newspapers and regional programmes. Somebody ought to be shouting about how our Great British Companies are just out to make a fast buck out of an important heritage project, and that our beloved HLF seems happy to throw-away millions, all for the sake of spending another small amount. Complete madness!
So, I can only suggest that we try and spread the word. Find those RAF people with history, experience and a respect for the V-Force and see if they can tap the right shoulders to give this project some really high profile publicity while it's still viable. If the aircraft can be restored to flying condition (something which now seems likely early next year if cash is found) then it could be removed from Bruntingthorpe and hopefully relocated to a site where money doesn't have to be shelled-out simply to stand still (Scampton? Honington? Wyton? Marham? Surely the MoD could help-out here without jumping on the money-making bandwagon?).
All ideas gratefully received...!
Yes, they do need another 250k to keep going and Dr Pleming thinks they might well be able to get this much cash by the end of the month. They have indeed issued redundancy notices because they're obliged to - the project has to be wound-up at the end of the month if the money isn't found, otherwise the Trust has to go into insolvency.
If the 250k figure isn't reached, then the aircraft's future has to be reviewed. There appears to be some possibility of putting the whole project "on hold" but of course even keeping the aircraft in suspended animation would cost yet more money, and make the ultimate goal drift further away.
The key to the project would seem to be the HLF people. Having already put so much cash into the project, it seems crazy that they can't add just a little bit more to see it through - if they don't, then all of their cash is wasted. Pleming says that the HLF will not supply any more cash without a policy decision from the top. Personally, I think this is where TVOC and others ought to be putting pressure on HLF. It is, after all, our money that they are going to be wasting if they don't cough-up another 250k (or less).
David Walton is charging TVOC hangar/storage rent and will continue to do so. I find this quite astonishing, but Pleming points-out that the rest of the hangar is a money-making asset (B&Q etc), but you'd think that of all people, Walton would have helped by waiving such charges... it seems not, and this is where a substantial amount of cash has gone. A staggering 275k so far and another 15k a month from here onwards. Absolutely mind-numbing, isn't it?
Richard Branson has been approached repeatedly but he's evidently not interested. Marshall's are doing the work but they're doing nothing for free - quite the opposite in fact and they're treating the project as a purely commercial venture. Likewise, Rolls Royce are doing nothing and are in fact one of the most expensive parts of the project. British Aerospace is helping by taking-on liability for free, but the boss doesn't want to offer any more financial support than that (even though it sounds like other BAe people do). So these Great British institutions aren't helping at all - in fact they're all busy making a fast buck! Shabby in the extreme...
Pleming also accepts that marketing and promotion has not been as good as it could have been, but like everyone else, he thinks it would be awful if we're left with "a useless hulk" at the end of this month after so much cash has been thrown at the project.
So there we are... not dead and buried just yet, but with three weeks to find about 200k, it's hanging in the balance. You'd think that somebody, somewhere, could find this cash. I really don't know what we can do at this late stage. To add to the problems, Pleming is ill and is going into hospital next week! Out of all this, I find it surprising and vaguely disgusting that key players like Marshalls (who are only too happy to crow about their achievements when it suits them) are doing nothing to support the project other than taking a very hefty fee. Likewise, Rolls Royce of all people, are busy making cash out of the project - shameful. I'm also amazed that when Walton bought the aircraft in the first place, he sees fit to take huge amounts of money just to keep the aircraft on his property. What kind of benefactor is that?!
But worst of all, it seems quite bizarre that after giving 2.7 million, the HLF can't hand-out another 250k to keep the project alive, and thereby avoid wasting their original investment. Absolute madness, and I would have thought that this is the key subject that someone ought to be highlighting in the media. It needs someone with some clout to get the project into the national media, instead of skulking around in local newspapers and regional programmes. Somebody ought to be shouting about how our Great British Companies are just out to make a fast buck out of an important heritage project, and that our beloved HLF seems happy to throw-away millions, all for the sake of spending another small amount. Complete madness!
So, I can only suggest that we try and spread the word. Find those RAF people with history, experience and a respect for the V-Force and see if they can tap the right shoulders to give this project some really high profile publicity while it's still viable. If the aircraft can be restored to flying condition (something which now seems likely early next year if cash is found) then it could be removed from Bruntingthorpe and hopefully relocated to a site where money doesn't have to be shelled-out simply to stand still (Scampton? Honington? Wyton? Marham? Surely the MoD could help-out here without jumping on the money-making bandwagon?).
All ideas gratefully received...!
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Vulcan - Not Dead Yet!
Although we have a thread on this subject elsewhere, I thought it important that I highlight this matter more clearly because of the impending threat of disaster!
The TVOC project has been going well, and the aircraft is still due to be rolled-out (albeit with components missing) at the end of this month. It is scheduled to fly again early next year and yet... unless another 200-250k is found within the next three weeks, the project will have to be terminated, and although the Trust could continue, the odds on ever starting-up the project again are virtually zero.
Having got this far, it seems ludicrous that the project might now have to be chopped. There's much that can be done, and most importantly, somebody ought to be putting pressure on the Lottery people to cough-up this cash, otherwise their hefty investment (2.7 million) is going to go straight down the proverbial pan.
Publicity and lots of it - that's what is needed at this critical stage so that the project can proceed to the flight stage, and then (finally!) some sponsors can finally see what they would be getting for their money. But the project needs some people with clout who can make the right people sit-up and take notice. Surely, there must be people out there in the RAF/MoD who can bring this matter to the attention of the right people? What a waste if all this effort and money amounts to nothing.
The TVOC project has been going well, and the aircraft is still due to be rolled-out (albeit with components missing) at the end of this month. It is scheduled to fly again early next year and yet... unless another 200-250k is found within the next three weeks, the project will have to be terminated, and although the Trust could continue, the odds on ever starting-up the project again are virtually zero.
Having got this far, it seems ludicrous that the project might now have to be chopped. There's much that can be done, and most importantly, somebody ought to be putting pressure on the Lottery people to cough-up this cash, otherwise their hefty investment (2.7 million) is going to go straight down the proverbial pan.
Publicity and lots of it - that's what is needed at this critical stage so that the project can proceed to the flight stage, and then (finally!) some sponsors can finally see what they would be getting for their money. But the project needs some people with clout who can make the right people sit-up and take notice. Surely, there must be people out there in the RAF/MoD who can bring this matter to the attention of the right people? What a waste if all this effort and money amounts to nothing.
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Whilst I admire the determination shown by those who wish to see the Vulcan fly again, I think it is a white elephant and that £2.7M and an extra £250K could be much, much better spent on more worthy causes. And I don't mean on lottery focus groups for gay Sheffield hacks!
Joke
RM
Joke
RM
I understand that there will be a piece on Yorkshire TV's 'Calendar' programme this evening (10891H SR22.0 FEC 5/6 for those with Sky Digital in other regions)...
Please make your support for the Vulcan to the Sky project known by e-mailing [email protected]
Idiots like Radar Muppet - please $od off!
Edited to add: YTV piece now due to be shown sometime next week!
Please make your support for the Vulcan to the Sky project known by e-mailing [email protected]
Idiots like Radar Muppet - please $od off!
Edited to add: YTV piece now due to be shown sometime next week!
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Aug 2006 at 17:17.
Tim, you will recall that Marshall Aerospace was recently awarded a £1.52 BILLION contract for the Hercules Integrated Operational Support programme? Well, Lord 'Larry' Drayson, MinDP reckons that this will save the British taxpayer some £171 MILLION over 24 years.
Now, Marshall Aerospace themselves will probably receive about 33% of the HIOS dosh - so surely they could find it in themselves to part with the minute amount, in those terms, which would be needed to keep the 558 programme?
Vulcan Murdered by Greed - that wouldn't make pretty PR....
Now, Marshall Aerospace themselves will probably receive about 33% of the HIOS dosh - so surely they could find it in themselves to part with the minute amount, in those terms, which would be needed to keep the 558 programme?
Vulcan Murdered by Greed - that wouldn't make pretty PR....
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
unless another 200-250k is found within the next three weeks, the project will have to be terminated
When oh when will someone come out and unequivacably tell the truth about how much money is needed to see the project through to fruition - to get it onto the show circuit? And if that needs some contingency to cover further overruns, OK, so admit it and plan for it. That way, at least potential donors big or small know where they really stand. Really, until such meaningful information is forthcoming, throwing further money at the project would seem to be throwing good money after bad.
In any case, the project shouldn't be in this state now. Any good project management should have covered the issues the project now faces pretty much before it was launched. If the initial planing work had been done properly, if costing had been realistic, if contingency had been put in place to cover overruns, the project would either (a) have never been started or (b) would have secured the funding to run to conclusion already in place. Don't blame the HLF, or Waltons, or BAe, or Marshalls - for the most part they're commercial organisations that have shareholders to satisfy in preference to sentimentality. To ask the HLF for more now merely suggests that there was some incompetence in preparing the original funding request - or was the most optimistic budget put up because it was felt that would be easier to secure and that overruns could be sorted out later?
My feeling is that no commercial donor is coming forward because the project is such a mess, still with unclear targets and budgets. If a Vulcan-minded person or organisation did exist, then realistically I think that they only way they'd engage would be if the project was temporarily stopped, the entire management team on the project was fired, and a realistic reassessment of the full and true future requirements of the project was put in place before any further work was undertaken.
According to the statement on the VOC website, £1m, not 250k, is required bt the end of the month in order to continue the project.
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php
The XH558 Club also quotes Dr Pleming as saying that the running costs will be £1.2m per year.
http://www.vulcan558club.com/AGM_Min..._Questions.doc
So for the quoted 15-year timespan of the project, with inflation, well over £20m will be required.
If these figures are correct, then £1.2m to get it to its first airshow next season, then another £1.2m for a season's operating costs means that £2.4m of this (plus funding for the next set of 'unforseen overuns') will be needed by September next year!!!!!
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/index2.php
The XH558 Club also quotes Dr Pleming as saying that the running costs will be £1.2m per year.
http://www.vulcan558club.com/AGM_Min..._Questions.doc
So for the quoted 15-year timespan of the project, with inflation, well over £20m will be required.
If these figures are correct, then £1.2m to get it to its first airshow next season, then another £1.2m for a season's operating costs means that £2.4m of this (plus funding for the next set of 'unforseen overuns') will be needed by September next year!!!!!
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Am I alone in being constantly baffled by this whole saga? XM558 flew into Bruntingthorpe so it was already in half way reasonable nick, and has been hangared since then. It is not a complicated aircraft. It may have been when it was on QRA - but not now. It’s a four jet with basic hydraulics for gear, brakes, speed brakes, nose wheel steering - and PFCU’s for flight control surfaces. The electrics are 50’s technology but now that the NBS and ECM have gone the aircraft has a huge excess of amps available - generators are not a critical item - lose one and you wouldn’t notice.
And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?
I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.
The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….
And I hear that several zero time inhibited engines are on hand, and on the books. There may have been areas of corrosion that needed attention - but why these vast sums of money to get the wheels off the deck again. Apart from a conventional service of hydraulic components and PFCU’s about the biggest non-routine job I would have expected would be some re-wiring in critical areas. And what’s it cost to re-certify two bang seats?
I’m left with a feeling of the ‘man in the street’, the punter, being taken for a ride here. I’d be pleased to be convinced otherwise, but it’ll be difficult. Anyone got any real numbers on costs. I did see a listing somewhere that mentioned several thousand to service a ‘beam compass’ - which, I suspect, supports my point.
The word ‘restoration’ keeps popping up. It ain’t a ‘restoration’, or at least it shouldn’t be - as I said, it flew in………….
No, a complete major has been carried out. Certain structural work has been carrried out to extend the aircraft life to the planned final flight date; the engineering team have kept close to the anticipated schedule and that side of the project has gone well.
I950s-60s electrics and hydraulics are far from being as benign as your post implies! 4000 psi hydraulics, large moving components such as landing gear - all to be restored in an expensive 21st century 'Health and Safety' environment...... There will be more setting up work to do when the engines are run - trying to get 4 AC generators to paralel properly is often tricky in a VC10, in a Vulcan the alternator trimming has to be done externally and can be more of an art than a science!
Most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. But all such work has to be thorough and to normal standards, if the CAA is to let the aircraft fly.
I very much doubt whether the 'man in the street' is being taken for a ride. Certain costs, to me, seem surprising - such as the rent of the restoration hangar - but, overall, this is a hard working team trying to realise their dream that others may yet see the majesty of the Vulcan in flight.
I950s-60s electrics and hydraulics are far from being as benign as your post implies! 4000 psi hydraulics, large moving components such as landing gear - all to be restored in an expensive 21st century 'Health and Safety' environment...... There will be more setting up work to do when the engines are run - trying to get 4 AC generators to paralel properly is often tricky in a VC10, in a Vulcan the alternator trimming has to be done externally and can be more of an art than a science!
Most of the antique avionics are being replaced by more reliable, modern systems. But all such work has to be thorough and to normal standards, if the CAA is to let the aircraft fly.
I very much doubt whether the 'man in the street' is being taken for a ride. Certain costs, to me, seem surprising - such as the rent of the restoration hangar - but, overall, this is a hard working team trying to realise their dream that others may yet see the majesty of the Vulcan in flight.
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Looking in from the periphery, the commercial nature of the restoration has got to be its Achilles heal. Marshall's have to make their margin and that must be a huge drain on voluntary contributions. Though I understand the CAA must be satisfied the work has been carried out professionally, there has got to be some scope to use volunteer expertise. I stand ready to be corrected.
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Pleming says that the HLF will not supply any more cash without a policy decision from the top. Personally, I think this is where TVOC and others ought to be putting pressure on HLF. It is, after all, our money that they are going to be wasting if they don't cough-up another 250k (or less).
Interesting that this item is being pushed on the VulcanToTheSky forum at the moment:
For those who are interested in helping the project, what about trying to contact the HLF and register our public interest in seeing this project completed? It's all very well and good the Trust looking for cash to complete the project. If the public are asking for the same results surely their chances are that much greater? as the Lottery Fund are doing this for us aren't they? They don't want to be seeing in-fighting and moaning amongst the supposed fans of this aircraft.
I have found their website here:
www.hlf.org.uk
And I think the regional offices for the Vulcan project would be:
http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/InYourArea/EastMidlands/
Chiltern House
St Nicholas Court
25-27 Castle Gate
Nottingham, NG1 7AR
Tel: 0115 9349050
Can all those interested in aiding the project give them a ring or email, and register support of this project and their concern?
If the engineers are looking to publicise the problems surely it's because they are worried they will have found new jobs and not be able to complete this project if the cash comes through at too late an hour. What action needs to be taken, wants to be taken now.
If any on here can help, then let's do our bit. I will.
This is on the Key Publishing forum at present. Not a bad idea...... What does everyone think? Support of the Project is needed at moment.
It's got to be worth a try. [email protected]
I have found their website here:
www.hlf.org.uk
And I think the regional offices for the Vulcan project would be:
http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/InYourArea/EastMidlands/
Chiltern House
St Nicholas Court
25-27 Castle Gate
Nottingham, NG1 7AR
Tel: 0115 9349050
Can all those interested in aiding the project give them a ring or email, and register support of this project and their concern?
If the engineers are looking to publicise the problems surely it's because they are worried they will have found new jobs and not be able to complete this project if the cash comes through at too late an hour. What action needs to be taken, wants to be taken now.
If any on here can help, then let's do our bit. I will.
This is on the Key Publishing forum at present. Not a bad idea...... What does everyone think? Support of the Project is needed at moment.
It's got to be worth a try. [email protected]
SSBS
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
LP, in that the RAF was asking for LAC/SAC to build wiring looms and not need to be qualified I guess that is your answer.
Different tack, did they get the volunteers?
Different tack, did they get the volunteers?