Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
OLD RED DAMASK
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Great idea Beags I'd love a copy.
BTW I'm winning the trip to S.A. however having a dodgy ticker don't think the Lightning flight would be a good idea...so if I win I will be looking for a volunteer to help me quaff the South African vino.
BTW I'm winning the trip to S.A. however having a dodgy ticker don't think the Lightning flight would be a good idea...so if I win I will be looking for a volunteer to help me quaff the South African vino.
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Assuming, of course, that MoD Corporate Greed™ doesn't get in the way or claim 'crown copyright'
Easy when you know how -
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Beagle, I think it's more likely to be TVOC rather than the MoD which tries to make a fast-buck!
Although I wish the team the very best of luck with their attempts to get 558 back into the air, the people who run the group (or at least some of them) seem to have a very bad attitude. When I got the go-ahead to reprint my Vulcan book, I approached the team to ask if I could interview them about the project. They sent me a very snappy reply, saying that I could use material from their website but that any further "material" would be withheld because I was simply out to make a profit and that they would publish their own book to raise money for 558!
All well and good, except I produced the Vulcan book for peanuts, and I merely wanted to help promote the team's project. Clearly, they will not have the resources to produce a decent book themselves, and of course they don't have any "material" which is particularly rare - I simply wanted to talk to them about the restoration project, so by being so snotty with me, they simply shot themselves in their proverbial foot.
Even more bizarre was the sudden inability of the Vulcan's prospective captain to even return my mail. Particularly annoying when he had previously used loads of my own slides to produce posters which he sold at air shows for his own profit (I never even got so much as a free poster). So you can see that I'm less-than enthused by TVOC's attitude!
As ever, it seems to have become a typical "club" which is ultimately concerned only with self-interest rather than the future of 558. It's a sad business, after all, I was merely offering to help and promote them! Still, despite all that, I hope 558 manages to fly again, regardless of the very odd people that run the project.
UncleFester, I remember that flight too, I was busy taking still shots, and it was hard work, thanks to the Herk crew having invited half of Lyneham along for a free trip too! Thankfully I'd previously taken some other shots of 558 from a CFS Jet Provost - ever tried chasing a Vulcan in a JP? It's certainly a challenge!
Shaggy, the new book isn't going to be available until late next year I suspect, as I've only just started work on it. However it should be pretty good when it's finished, as it will be big, detailed and hopefully the "last word" on the Vulcan. Much more so than my earlier Vulcan book which was a bit disappointing.
Although I wish the team the very best of luck with their attempts to get 558 back into the air, the people who run the group (or at least some of them) seem to have a very bad attitude. When I got the go-ahead to reprint my Vulcan book, I approached the team to ask if I could interview them about the project. They sent me a very snappy reply, saying that I could use material from their website but that any further "material" would be withheld because I was simply out to make a profit and that they would publish their own book to raise money for 558!
All well and good, except I produced the Vulcan book for peanuts, and I merely wanted to help promote the team's project. Clearly, they will not have the resources to produce a decent book themselves, and of course they don't have any "material" which is particularly rare - I simply wanted to talk to them about the restoration project, so by being so snotty with me, they simply shot themselves in their proverbial foot.
Even more bizarre was the sudden inability of the Vulcan's prospective captain to even return my mail. Particularly annoying when he had previously used loads of my own slides to produce posters which he sold at air shows for his own profit (I never even got so much as a free poster). So you can see that I'm less-than enthused by TVOC's attitude!
As ever, it seems to have become a typical "club" which is ultimately concerned only with self-interest rather than the future of 558. It's a sad business, after all, I was merely offering to help and promote them! Still, despite all that, I hope 558 manages to fly again, regardless of the very odd people that run the project.
UncleFester, I remember that flight too, I was busy taking still shots, and it was hard work, thanks to the Herk crew having invited half of Lyneham along for a free trip too! Thankfully I'd previously taken some other shots of 558 from a CFS Jet Provost - ever tried chasing a Vulcan in a JP? It's certainly a challenge!
Shaggy, the new book isn't going to be available until late next year I suspect, as I've only just started work on it. However it should be pretty good when it's finished, as it will be big, detailed and hopefully the "last word" on the Vulcan. Much more so than my earlier Vulcan book which was a bit disappointing.
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Thanks very much!
I've waded through these threads and I'm exhausted!
Although I've PM'd a few people, I would ask again that if any of you guys want to relate your stories or information on Vulcans, do please PM or email me, as I really would like to gather as many stories as a I can for my new book.
Naturally, I will trace the development and service history of the Vulcan, but this is "old stuff" now, and I think the book would be much more interesting if it contained more direct stories from the people who flew and maintained the aircraft.
I should point-out that discussing the weapons and war role, routes, etc., is no longer a sensitive subject; much has already been discussed in print, and now that the RAF hasn't been in the nukes business for many years, it's no longer a subject to be shrouded in mystery, so I hope to add much more information in my new book about how the Vulcan was actually used, and how it would have operated in a real-time war role. I think it important that this new book (which will probably be the last "big" book on the Vulcan) gives a proper account of what the Vulcan was all about, not just the same old potted history that we've all seen many times before.
I'd be very interested in more information about the one (or is it two?!) incidents in 1969, as that is an event which hasn't been recorded in earlier Vulcan books. Indeed, I'd be very interested in any information about exercises, QRA, and so on.
I'm also on the lookout for photographs, so that I don't have to churn-out too many photos which have been seen before, but of course there's a limit to what I can do. If anyone has any photos they can lend me, I can certainly scan them and return them.
Does anybody have a photo of either of the two Vulcans that received two-tone brown "desert" camouflage on the lower surfaces of the aircraft, during one of the Red Flags? I have a couple of snapshots but they'e fairly distant, so I'm still on the lookout for closer shots if anyone knows of any.
All contributions gratefully received, and credited to their source - it would be a shame if all of the information on this thread wasn't put into print in some form!
[email protected]
I've waded through these threads and I'm exhausted!
Although I've PM'd a few people, I would ask again that if any of you guys want to relate your stories or information on Vulcans, do please PM or email me, as I really would like to gather as many stories as a I can for my new book.
Naturally, I will trace the development and service history of the Vulcan, but this is "old stuff" now, and I think the book would be much more interesting if it contained more direct stories from the people who flew and maintained the aircraft.
I should point-out that discussing the weapons and war role, routes, etc., is no longer a sensitive subject; much has already been discussed in print, and now that the RAF hasn't been in the nukes business for many years, it's no longer a subject to be shrouded in mystery, so I hope to add much more information in my new book about how the Vulcan was actually used, and how it would have operated in a real-time war role. I think it important that this new book (which will probably be the last "big" book on the Vulcan) gives a proper account of what the Vulcan was all about, not just the same old potted history that we've all seen many times before.
I'd be very interested in more information about the one (or is it two?!) incidents in 1969, as that is an event which hasn't been recorded in earlier Vulcan books. Indeed, I'd be very interested in any information about exercises, QRA, and so on.
I'm also on the lookout for photographs, so that I don't have to churn-out too many photos which have been seen before, but of course there's a limit to what I can do. If anyone has any photos they can lend me, I can certainly scan them and return them.
Does anybody have a photo of either of the two Vulcans that received two-tone brown "desert" camouflage on the lower surfaces of the aircraft, during one of the Red Flags? I have a couple of snapshots but they'e fairly distant, so I'm still on the lookout for closer shots if anyone knows of any.
All contributions gratefully received, and credited to their source - it would be a shame if all of the information on this thread wasn't put into print in some form!
[email protected]
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
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Tim, book me up for copy no 1 and your autograph please. (Always good to have something to forge....)
Good luck and I seriously hope to enrich you by pennies when it comes out.
Conan
Good luck and I seriously hope to enrich you by pennies when it comes out.
Conan
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Thanks for the support but I won't be getting any richer, no matter how many people buy it. I settled for a one-off fee to produce it (and you'd be horrified to know how much- or how little it was!) but I thought it would be an interesting project, so what the hell!
Ultimately, I'd be happy if the end result is something that is at least close to a "definitive" book on our beloved Vulcan, chiefly because I seriously doubt if any other publisher will ever produce something so substantial on the Vulcan. These days, plane books just don't interest publishers, so it's hard work to get anything worthwhile commissioned, sadly.
Ultimately, I'd be happy if the end result is something that is at least close to a "definitive" book on our beloved Vulcan, chiefly because I seriously doubt if any other publisher will ever produce something so substantial on the Vulcan. These days, plane books just don't interest publishers, so it's hard work to get anything worthwhile commissioned, sadly.
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Anyhow you will be writing about the aircraft that was responsible for causing all of its pilots to have very great affection bordering on love. The thrills of flying the Vulcan went undiminished by familiarity and every one of us want to do it again. It's nervous system through the stick blended beautifully with ones own although I did try hard to have that hardly discernable breakout force on elevator reduced.
Is there another Vulcan pilot who would not choose it as his favourite. An F-111 comes close.
Is there another Vulcan pilot who would not choose it as his favourite. An F-111 comes close.
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Milt,
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say I would nominate the Vampire T11 as my favourite. It took some mastering to fly it properly and once mastered brought a smile every time. Why was it a problem? Brakes that were less effective than bars of soap, no throttle slam control (AFRCU), slow engine acceleration, bands of engine revs that you were not allowed to use and so on plus it flew very nicely thank you. Long landing rollers were character building - couldn't stop and it was a long time in getting the engine back to providing thrust. If you moved the throttle too quickly the engine made a funny continuous burping noise and the only solution was to close the throttle and start again which definately made you think.
ACW
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say I would nominate the Vampire T11 as my favourite. It took some mastering to fly it properly and once mastered brought a smile every time. Why was it a problem? Brakes that were less effective than bars of soap, no throttle slam control (AFRCU), slow engine acceleration, bands of engine revs that you were not allowed to use and so on plus it flew very nicely thank you. Long landing rollers were character building - couldn't stop and it was a long time in getting the engine back to providing thrust. If you moved the throttle too quickly the engine made a funny continuous burping noise and the only solution was to close the throttle and start again which definately made you think.
ACW
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So would I Biker, but aeropsace publishers are a mean and conservative lot, and although they accept that the Vulcan is a commercial subject, they tend to glaze-over at the thought of producing books on the Victor or Valiant. That's why we ultimately end-up with books on V-Bombers rather than individual aircraft. I wrote such a book ("V-Bombers") for PSL/Haynes some years ago, chiefly because it was the only way I could get anything published about the Valiant and Victor!
Spare a thought for lunatics such as myself who adore Varsities - can you imagine a book on the Varsity ever being published?!
Spare a thought for lunatics such as myself who adore Varsities - can you imagine a book on the Varsity ever being published?!
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I once knew a bloke called "Tiny" Tew who I believe was a Nav on 9 Sqn in late 60's/early 70's. (might be wrong) He told me a story about a Vulcan landing in which a main wheel (maybe 2) came adrift. Aircraft landed safely and no body injured, but the wheel bounced across the road, through a field and demolished part of a farmers chicken shed. P***ed off farmer returned wheel in a tractor trailer the next day. Not sure of exact details now as this was some years back. However, others may know more and might like to tell the tale.
Another ex Vulcan man I knew was "Ernie" Batty, now passed on sad to say. Ernie told a hillairious story about a visit to Gib when very junior. His crew went on a bender and all he could remember next morning was some bar done up with rope and fishing nets, and some large fronted woman who's boobs he kissed. It turned out the "bar" was the Officer's Mess and the woman was the Stn Cdr's wife!!! Crew were met on the mess steps by the Staish who knew the Captain, and ignoring Ernie completly bid his friend goodby, saying come back anytime, but don't ever bring HIM. Story as told by Ernie much funnier than I can reproduce here.
My contact with Tin Triangle was I am sad to say, limited to controlling Lightnings on Fighter Affil in various places, and laying on Ladies Mile beach watching 9 and 35 Sqn landing at Akrotiri when I was on 280 SU at Cape Gata in early 1970's. Happy days!!!
Another ex Vulcan man I knew was "Ernie" Batty, now passed on sad to say. Ernie told a hillairious story about a visit to Gib when very junior. His crew went on a bender and all he could remember next morning was some bar done up with rope and fishing nets, and some large fronted woman who's boobs he kissed. It turned out the "bar" was the Officer's Mess and the woman was the Stn Cdr's wife!!! Crew were met on the mess steps by the Staish who knew the Captain, and ignoring Ernie completly bid his friend goodby, saying come back anytime, but don't ever bring HIM. Story as told by Ernie much funnier than I can reproduce here.
My contact with Tin Triangle was I am sad to say, limited to controlling Lightnings on Fighter Affil in various places, and laying on Ladies Mile beach watching 9 and 35 Sqn landing at Akrotiri when I was on 280 SU at Cape Gata in early 1970's. Happy days!!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
RayDarr, I just missed the incident that tew reported. It was at Coningsby about May-Jun 64. The sqn cdr made an approach, I don't recall any mitigating factors, on 25 I think. Having thumped the deck they got airborne again minus port main - not sure if they lost 4 pair or just part of the boggie.
The loose wheels then bounced down the airfield missing the 3 QRA ac armed with yellow Suns, where the 29S HAS site, and the rest is as you say.
S****** gout airborne again and made a successful landing at Waddington and I think IX had a new CO. (Could have been 35, certainly not 12). Not long after the new CO B**** ploughed in on recovery from a practice assymetric.
Now I need help after severe brain fade. What was the size of the NBS offsets? Were the internals 20000 yds and the externals 40000 yards?
The loose wheels then bounced down the airfield missing the 3 QRA ac armed with yellow Suns, where the 29S HAS site, and the rest is as you say.
S****** gout airborne again and made a successful landing at Waddington and I think IX had a new CO. (Could have been 35, certainly not 12). Not long after the new CO B**** ploughed in on recovery from a practice assymetric.
Now I need help after severe brain fade. What was the size of the NBS offsets? Were the internals 20000 yds and the externals 40000 yards?
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My best mate in the RAF when a Captain on Vulcan at Waddo managed to wipe out 16 of the 18 tyres on landing. Got a bit tense and landed with the toe brakes applied. Axminster shuffle followed I believe. I do hope he doesn't read PPRune.
Mind you his previous Captain who was the OC of 44 turned all the PFC's off whilst aerodynamic braking after landing and stuffed the nose leg up a bit (actually a lot!).
ACW
Mind you his previous Captain who was the OC of 44 turned all the PFC's off whilst aerodynamic braking after landing and stuffed the nose leg up a bit (actually a lot!).
ACW
PN
It's getting on for 40 years since I last touched NBS, but that sounds right to me.
Tim
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Now I need help after severe brain fade. What was the size of the NBS offsets? Were the internals 20000 yds and the externals 40000 yards?
Tim
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I have a few questions that arise out of ploughing through this thread and its sub-threads. I flew Vulcans when we had both 201 and 301 engines so some of my confusion may be caused by this. We were introducing Sim Start as a mod. Prior to Sim Start we used to start No 2 engine either using an Artouste (or was it a Palouste) or by cross feeding from the Rover AAPP - the rest were started by cross feeding from No 2. After the mod it was all high pressure air so you could not cross feed anymore. On QRA we used to leave the aircraft cocked ready for Sim start with all throttles at full. You had to either go straight off (from the ORP) or catch the engines at about 70% I think. I seem to remember you had to watch the JPTs and if you retarded the throttles too soon the engine stopped (or the JPT went too high?). I do not recall any ripple starts.
The questions are after the Sim start mod how did we start the engines normally i.e. not on QRA? The other question is about the Take Off/Cruise switch which was not fitted when I was flying Mk2's as far as I can recall - when was that introduced or was it a Mk1/1A thing?
ACW
The questions are after the Sim start mod how did we start the engines normally i.e. not on QRA? The other question is about the Take Off/Cruise switch which was not fitted when I was flying Mk2's as far as I can recall - when was that introduced or was it a Mk1/1A thing?
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Take-Off/Cruise?
Was that the power option on the 301? In take-off the engines would run at 101-104% for take-off. Later they used cruise only thus 98-99% for take-off and still more than enough. Is that right?
TimL, thanks, I remember 56... as the maximum but could not for the life of me remember if it was based on the 40k offsets.
Was that the power option on the 301? In take-off the engines would run at 101-104% for take-off. Later they used cruise only thus 98-99% for take-off and still more than enough. Is that right?
TimL, thanks, I remember 56... as the maximum but could not for the life of me remember if it was based on the 40k offsets.
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Starting, and the T/O Cruise switch
In my day the palouste was used if a serviceable one was available. Normally staring an outer engine first. Never bled start air from the AAPP (cannot remeber that as an option). The most common start was a single rapid on an outer, then crossfeeding at 70% to individually start the others. In a hurry it would be the simultaneous crossfeed at 93%. I seem to remember that to even up the wear/numbers of rapid shots across the engines we were a number of times asked to rapid an inner, and then would crossfeed start the other side, throttle back that inner and crossfeed back from the other outer to start the first. Vaguely remeber something about intake airflow and hot starts!
The T/O Cruise switch was lightly wire locked in my day. It limited the 301s to cruise power - 17000lbs - same as the 201s in Take Off. This I always found to be perfectly adequate! The reason, if memory serves me correctly was to preserve the engines from the fearful earsplitting bashing that the engineers gave them in trying to get up to that 104ish% (overswing permitted to 107%?). On displays, scrambles at shows etc crewchiefs were known to do a bit of relocking on the quiet.
The T/O Cruise switch was lightly wire locked in my day. It limited the 301s to cruise power - 17000lbs - same as the 201s in Take Off. This I always found to be perfectly adequate! The reason, if memory serves me correctly was to preserve the engines from the fearful earsplitting bashing that the engineers gave them in trying to get up to that 104ish% (overswing permitted to 107%?). On displays, scrambles at shows etc crewchiefs were known to do a bit of relocking on the quiet.
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The Palouste was the referred start in the 70's at least, if necessary using that engine to crossfeed the rest individually [Palousts were notoriously unreliable in those days]; the main reason for that was to save wear and tear on the rapid start combustion chambers. If no Palouste [or more likely, if u/s] rapid start No1 then individual LP crossfeed. The 'ripple rapid' was normally used for exercises or on QRA in the late 60's [set throttles to 70%, select rapid and hit the individual start buttons in the sequence 1,3,2,4. The 'Mass Rapid' or 'Sim Start' was a single button start - the ac was prepped and the throttles set at 70%, alternators set to 'ON'. Hitting the Sim Start button, rapid started all engines together, the alternators came on line automatically and the PFCs then automatically started. ACW418 - in my time [68 onwards] there was always the option to use either LP or HP air.
The External Sim Start was the exciting one, where the crewchief had an external button he pushed to fire up everything, when the crew got to the door. The captain was first on board and when he got to his seat, he throttled back all 4 engines then got on intercm before strapping in.
Apparently, there was a case where the chief hit the button, but the captain couldn't find the doorkey. The storey goes that the ac started to push the chocks forward by the time the key was found and the door opened. Could have been very nasty, because directly in front of the runaway ac was another fully nuclear armed ac...
I once did a start using the AAPP bleed. It took quite some time for the pressure to build in the system and the AAPP was not happy giving away bleed air - it banged and crashed and the JPT went off the clock.
The 301s were more powerful engines designed for Skybolt and then the Blue Steel carriers [BMk2s]. They had a take-off/cruise switch that controlled the thrust avail as 50+Ray said. 'Takeoff' was used when flying a wet round [ie, fully-fuelled] Blue Steel, usually off QRA [at the end of the 30-day on state for the ac - the warhead was removed and ballast fitted].
Halycon days...
The External Sim Start was the exciting one, where the crewchief had an external button he pushed to fire up everything, when the crew got to the door. The captain was first on board and when he got to his seat, he throttled back all 4 engines then got on intercm before strapping in.
Apparently, there was a case where the chief hit the button, but the captain couldn't find the doorkey. The storey goes that the ac started to push the chocks forward by the time the key was found and the door opened. Could have been very nasty, because directly in front of the runaway ac was another fully nuclear armed ac...
I once did a start using the AAPP bleed. It took quite some time for the pressure to build in the system and the AAPP was not happy giving away bleed air - it banged and crashed and the JPT went off the clock.
The 301s were more powerful engines designed for Skybolt and then the Blue Steel carriers [BMk2s]. They had a take-off/cruise switch that controlled the thrust avail as 50+Ray said. 'Takeoff' was used when flying a wet round [ie, fully-fuelled] Blue Steel, usually off QRA [at the end of the 30-day on state for the ac - the warhead was removed and ballast fitted].
Halycon days...