Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, long johns, G-pants, vest and shirt (hairy flying shirt), AVS, flying suit and pressure jerkin.
Waddle like a duck and a real disincentive to have too much to drink and risk having to have a pee.
Remember the presure jerkins? Great big blue canvas babygrows with the orange stoll and the shoulder pads to stop the harness slipping.
Waddle like a duck and a real disincentive to have too much to drink and risk having to have a pee.
Remember the presure jerkins? Great big blue canvas babygrows with the orange stoll and the shoulder pads to stop the harness slipping.
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PN
Yes of course. Don't remember the long johns but always wore the pressure jerkin - I don't think we had separate Mae Wests on Vulcans. Did you use the AVS and was it always u/s like the pilots ones? Just blew cold air but you didn't realise till it was too late so you froze for about three hours at altitude. There was nothing so startling as seeing your mate practising pressure breathing at North Luffenham - neck size increased about two fold it seemed. Do they still do that today at the Av Med School.
ACW
Yes of course. Don't remember the long johns but always wore the pressure jerkin - I don't think we had separate Mae Wests on Vulcans. Did you use the AVS and was it always u/s like the pilots ones? Just blew cold air but you didn't realise till it was too late so you froze for about three hours at altitude. There was nothing so startling as seeing your mate practising pressure breathing at North Luffenham - neck size increased about two fold it seemed. Do they still do that today at the Av Med School.
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, our QFI had a thing about wearing the full fig just in case. This was after the force had gone LL. But he knew a thing or two as we deployed to the Far East later that year with all the kit.
We wore ordinary LSJs when we did not plan to fly above 450. Didn't look forward to wearing all the kit at 30 deg plus.
Used to use the AVS for coolth more than warmth. Unlike the drivers airframe sitting there doing nothing I had to jump around the cockpit passing up butty boxes, hot soup etc and then shooting astro.
We wore ordinary LSJs when we did not plan to fly above 450. Didn't look forward to wearing all the kit at 30 deg plus.
Used to use the AVS for coolth more than warmth. Unlike the drivers airframe sitting there doing nothing I had to jump around the cockpit passing up butty boxes, hot soup etc and then shooting astro.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Yes still got blown up in the F4 fig. Not as bad as it was not as high as 560. Only had the 56 treatment once, thereafter it was 520. Still a bastard with the oxygen streaming over the eyeballs.
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PN
I think you were refering to what Navs usually call the master race!
I saw someone post on here a bit back about being explosively decompressed to 52K but I thought we went a bit higher than that. I had a skinful of beer the night before which nearly led to another explosive decompression.
ACW
I think you were refering to what Navs usually call the master race!
I saw someone post on here a bit back about being explosively decompressed to 52K but I thought we went a bit higher than that. I had a skinful of beer the night before which nearly led to another explosive decompression.
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The first bang was to 560. Thereafter the annual refresher was shorter and lower. I published the figures from my log book.
Ah yes, forgot (no I didn't) the twin winged master race. Mind you far harder to fly with only one wing.
Remember one morning, skipper called back after morning prayers, 'mutter mutter mutter.' We tackled him later, it was about him hitting a runway marker board about 5000 feet down the runway (just under 1700 yards Milt). Seems the 3 foot high board had been hit 10 feet inboard of the tip of the wing - at night!
WHEN
Apparently the previous night when our skipper was doing a check ride on a different crew's copilot - soon to become an ex-V-force copilot.
Which sqn ACW? I was on 12.
Ah yes, forgot (no I didn't) the twin winged master race. Mind you far harder to fly with only one wing.
Remember one morning, skipper called back after morning prayers, 'mutter mutter mutter.' We tackled him later, it was about him hitting a runway marker board about 5000 feet down the runway (just under 1700 yards Milt). Seems the 3 foot high board had been hit 10 feet inboard of the tip of the wing - at night!
WHEN
Apparently the previous night when our skipper was doing a check ride on a different crew's copilot - soon to become an ex-V-force copilot.
Which sqn ACW? I was on 12.
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Sqn Ldr McMaster telling an enthralled audience that he had taken a Vulcan above Mach 1.0 and that he would never do it again as both pilots were pulling as hard as they could with both hands to recover.
Could someone explain why that would be the case? Milt?
The aircraft presumably wouldn't reach that speed in level flight and also, presumably, wasn't meant to fly that fast, so......?
Could someone explain why that would be the case? Milt?
The aircraft presumably wouldn't reach that speed in level flight and also, presumably, wasn't meant to fly that fast, so......?
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Auto Mach Trim
My memory may be at fault, but here goes. Shock wave build up progessively pushed the nose down. AMT began to extend at about (?)0.88 to apply up elevon. Both AMT at full extension was about three quarters of max control deflection up, and that was reached at about .94 or .95 I believe, certainly faster than we were supposed to go, and speeds normally obtainable only when going downwards IMHO.
On a previous subject, most of my Scrambles were at normal BTR training weights, and I cannot remember the separation time. I do recall a couple of scrambles for VIP displays where we taxied forward off the ORP together then sat for the appropriate delay before releasing brakes. One occasion was in heavy rain (Duke of G?) as a Co in number 3. I remember that when No1 went to full power we lost sight of nearly everything in the blast of horizontal water and the ASI read 70+ while we were stationary.
On a previous subject, most of my Scrambles were at normal BTR training weights, and I cannot remember the separation time. I do recall a couple of scrambles for VIP displays where we taxied forward off the ORP together then sat for the appropriate delay before releasing brakes. One occasion was in heavy rain (Duke of G?) as a Co in number 3. I remember that when No1 went to full power we lost sight of nearly everything in the blast of horizontal water and the ASI read 70+ while we were stationary.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
50+Ray, very good. As you say AMT gave just about full up elevon. Without a tail there was no more to give.
Why do M 1.0? 'Cause it's there? Or more likely an accidental excursion.
Happened in Cyprus too. Aircraft dived and both pilots pulled and overstress. Saved the aircraft.
Or thought they had. The ground experts said it would have recovered without the overstress when it entered the thicker air around 30k. IAS would be higher and more control authority would have been available.
Wonder how long and how many cups of coffee it took to work that one out? Rather different trying the same trick at several times the speed of the Cresta run.
Why do M 1.0? 'Cause it's there? Or more likely an accidental excursion.
Happened in Cyprus too. Aircraft dived and both pilots pulled and overstress. Saved the aircraft.
Or thought they had. The ground experts said it would have recovered without the overstress when it entered the thicker air around 30k. IAS would be higher and more control authority would have been available.
Wonder how long and how many cups of coffee it took to work that one out? Rather different trying the same trick at several times the speed of the Cresta run.
Thread Starter
If I recall correctly, Auto Mach Trim applied increasing up elevon as the IMN increased and the Centre of Pressure moved further and further aft, until at M0.97, AMT was holding 75% up elevon. That left only 25% further elevon available to recover from any high speed, until the IMN decreased in the descent.
'No trimming above M0.9' if I recall corrctly, meaning you held a push force against the AMT if you needed to cruise at greater than M0.9 - and gave a natural pitch up behaviour if stick force was relaxed.
Having got into a high speed descent once due to trying to be too clever, I can certainly confirm that with AMT working as adevertised, it takes a looooong time to recover from extreme descent angles with only 25% up elevon left to play with until the TAS/IAS ratio improves in the lower atmosphere.
My error was to throttle to idle and extend full airbrake at FL450, then pitch into the descent thinking that accelerating against airbrake would significanty increase the descent rate. Which it did - except that I'd forgotten about the additional strong nose-down trim change you expereince about 7 sec after extending airbrakes. So Iwas caught by surprise when it happened and I ended up with a much steeper dive angle and a lot more IMN than I'd intended (M0.97-ish was certainly seen...), thus nearly dropped a boom right overhead Bawtry - where AOC 1 Gp would no doubt have had questions asked!
Regarding throttle settings on scrambles, there was some potential problem due to a fuel valve being held open by fuel flow in the flow control unit (or whatever an Olympus 'carburettor' was termed), meaning that if you parked the throttles at the 50% setting used for rapid starts and then opened them fully, the valve might stay open and an over rich fuel flow restrict the available thrust. I certainly remember being told to throttle to idle briefly after a ripple rapid start in order to allow the valve to close, before opening up to scramble.
'No trimming above M0.9' if I recall corrctly, meaning you held a push force against the AMT if you needed to cruise at greater than M0.9 - and gave a natural pitch up behaviour if stick force was relaxed.
Having got into a high speed descent once due to trying to be too clever, I can certainly confirm that with AMT working as adevertised, it takes a looooong time to recover from extreme descent angles with only 25% up elevon left to play with until the TAS/IAS ratio improves in the lower atmosphere.
My error was to throttle to idle and extend full airbrake at FL450, then pitch into the descent thinking that accelerating against airbrake would significanty increase the descent rate. Which it did - except that I'd forgotten about the additional strong nose-down trim change you expereince about 7 sec after extending airbrakes. So Iwas caught by surprise when it happened and I ended up with a much steeper dive angle and a lot more IMN than I'd intended (M0.97-ish was certainly seen...), thus nearly dropped a boom right overhead Bawtry - where AOC 1 Gp would no doubt have had questions asked!
Regarding throttle settings on scrambles, there was some potential problem due to a fuel valve being held open by fuel flow in the flow control unit (or whatever an Olympus 'carburettor' was termed), meaning that if you parked the throttles at the 50% setting used for rapid starts and then opened them fully, the valve might stay open and an over rich fuel flow restrict the available thrust. I certainly remember being told to throttle to idle briefly after a ripple rapid start in order to allow the valve to close, before opening up to scramble.
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Auto Mach Trims have their limits.
I can only talk to the Vulcan and Victor Mk 1s although a few flights in a Vulcan Mk2 as an IRE were a bonus.
The extract from memoirs has been posted some time ago on another thread but may be of interest in the current context.
The IMN reached was a transitory reading before all attention was concentrated on recovering from a serious mach tuck
Towards the end of 1957, Flt Lt Rus Law was selected to replace me at Boscombe Down. He was then completing the ETPS course at Farnborough. I commenced handing over my responsibilities for all Vulcan flight tests to others in the squadron. Flt Lt Ray Bray was to pick up on weapon carriage and release trials. So, one day we were out over Lyme Bay in Vulcan 892 with a full load of practice bombs. One point for measurement was to be at the corner of the aircraft flight envelope with the weapon bay doors open. This was 415 Kts IAS, 0.98 IMN and 3.5 g. The cross over for IMN and IAS was at about 27,000 ft.
Ray was flying the aircraft from the right seat. We started a spiralling descent at high mach number from above 35,000 ft, aiming to reach all of the test conditions together at 27,000 ft.
The Vulcan had an increasing nose down pitching moment due to shock wave effects as speed increased above 0.88 IMN. To artificially correct this instability, Avro had inserted an auto mach trimmer in the elevator controls. The trimmer responded to mach number by extending increasing up elevator without any change to stick position or feel until it ran out of authority at 0.98 IMN. There was then little remaining elevator movement available, especially for manoeuvre.
We were thus spiralling down with almost full up-elevator. I had discussed these limits during our pre-flight briefing so we were a bit wary.
As it happened, Ray pulled a little too tightly into the spiral just short of our target conditions and speed dropped off. He relaxed stick back pressure to recover speed which increased too quickly and to overshoot just as we had reached the limit of the auto mach trimmer. The result was an abrupt increase in nose-down pitch and an attempt to control this by further back-stick. But there was no more left, the elevators were at full authority.
I grabbed the stick with both hands, stopped the roll and tried to milk some more elevator. With two of us pulling hard on the stick, we found it to be very firmly against the stops. But, the nose was pitching down at an increasing rate as mach number went up past 1.0. I let go of the stick with my right hand and pulled all engines back to idle, before pondering the effects of the speed brakes if I were to extend them now at a speed well above their maximum operating speed. There was a real risk of them failing structurally. By now we were going through the vertical with the Mach No reaching 1.04+ . I was considering pushing under and slowly rolling upright.
I took the risk and slammed down the speed brake control and felt them bight. IAS and IMN started to come back and, slowly at first, the elevators started to pitch the nose up. We came back through the vertical at about 18,000 ft and soon gained normal control. Continuing buffet reminded us that the weapon bay doors were still open. To my relief they closed as we continued to pull out of our dive, regaining level flight at 8,000 ft. Any ships below would have received a very substantial sonic bang.
There was a residual abnormal noise and my concern about the speed brakes returned. I called base and asked for assistance from any airborne aircraft in the vicinity. A Canberra was vectored towards us as I headed back towards Boscombe Down. I found that, as I slowed the aircraft, the noise became worse. At 150 Kts the noise in the cockpit was like blowing across the top of an empty bottle. Soon we had a Canberra pilot looking us over. He spotted a small access hatch open under the nose and no other problem of external significance. The hatch turned out to be the access to the oxygen filling connections.
Ground inspection revealed that the rear bulkhead of the weapons bay had been deformed. If that had let go we would have lost our tail.
This turned out to be the first time that a V bomber had gone supersonic. It was not to be a normal event. In the next year one of B Squadron's Victors ran-away nose down after losing a pitot tube and broke up over the Bristol channel.
I continued to learn the elements of survival as a test pilot. A wide general knowledge of all aircraft systems was basic, together with a solid appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses of aircraft structures. Necessary also was an ability to continuously assess all factors and limitations applying to critical areas of flight and performance, always matching all aspects to one's own personal and crew abilities.
I can only talk to the Vulcan and Victor Mk 1s although a few flights in a Vulcan Mk2 as an IRE were a bonus.
The extract from memoirs has been posted some time ago on another thread but may be of interest in the current context.
The IMN reached was a transitory reading before all attention was concentrated on recovering from a serious mach tuck
Towards the end of 1957, Flt Lt Rus Law was selected to replace me at Boscombe Down. He was then completing the ETPS course at Farnborough. I commenced handing over my responsibilities for all Vulcan flight tests to others in the squadron. Flt Lt Ray Bray was to pick up on weapon carriage and release trials. So, one day we were out over Lyme Bay in Vulcan 892 with a full load of practice bombs. One point for measurement was to be at the corner of the aircraft flight envelope with the weapon bay doors open. This was 415 Kts IAS, 0.98 IMN and 3.5 g. The cross over for IMN and IAS was at about 27,000 ft.
Ray was flying the aircraft from the right seat. We started a spiralling descent at high mach number from above 35,000 ft, aiming to reach all of the test conditions together at 27,000 ft.
The Vulcan had an increasing nose down pitching moment due to shock wave effects as speed increased above 0.88 IMN. To artificially correct this instability, Avro had inserted an auto mach trimmer in the elevator controls. The trimmer responded to mach number by extending increasing up elevator without any change to stick position or feel until it ran out of authority at 0.98 IMN. There was then little remaining elevator movement available, especially for manoeuvre.
We were thus spiralling down with almost full up-elevator. I had discussed these limits during our pre-flight briefing so we were a bit wary.
As it happened, Ray pulled a little too tightly into the spiral just short of our target conditions and speed dropped off. He relaxed stick back pressure to recover speed which increased too quickly and to overshoot just as we had reached the limit of the auto mach trimmer. The result was an abrupt increase in nose-down pitch and an attempt to control this by further back-stick. But there was no more left, the elevators were at full authority.
I grabbed the stick with both hands, stopped the roll and tried to milk some more elevator. With two of us pulling hard on the stick, we found it to be very firmly against the stops. But, the nose was pitching down at an increasing rate as mach number went up past 1.0. I let go of the stick with my right hand and pulled all engines back to idle, before pondering the effects of the speed brakes if I were to extend them now at a speed well above their maximum operating speed. There was a real risk of them failing structurally. By now we were going through the vertical with the Mach No reaching 1.04+ . I was considering pushing under and slowly rolling upright.
I took the risk and slammed down the speed brake control and felt them bight. IAS and IMN started to come back and, slowly at first, the elevators started to pitch the nose up. We came back through the vertical at about 18,000 ft and soon gained normal control. Continuing buffet reminded us that the weapon bay doors were still open. To my relief they closed as we continued to pull out of our dive, regaining level flight at 8,000 ft. Any ships below would have received a very substantial sonic bang.
There was a residual abnormal noise and my concern about the speed brakes returned. I called base and asked for assistance from any airborne aircraft in the vicinity. A Canberra was vectored towards us as I headed back towards Boscombe Down. I found that, as I slowed the aircraft, the noise became worse. At 150 Kts the noise in the cockpit was like blowing across the top of an empty bottle. Soon we had a Canberra pilot looking us over. He spotted a small access hatch open under the nose and no other problem of external significance. The hatch turned out to be the access to the oxygen filling connections.
Ground inspection revealed that the rear bulkhead of the weapons bay had been deformed. If that had let go we would have lost our tail.
This turned out to be the first time that a V bomber had gone supersonic. It was not to be a normal event. In the next year one of B Squadron's Victors ran-away nose down after losing a pitot tube and broke up over the Bristol channel.
I continued to learn the elements of survival as a test pilot. A wide general knowledge of all aircraft systems was basic, together with a solid appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses of aircraft structures. Necessary also was an ability to continuously assess all factors and limitations applying to critical areas of flight and performance, always matching all aspects to one's own personal and crew abilities.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Checking the ODM, there was a negative correction to IMN to get TMN. Typically this was -0.03 ie .98 IMN would equate to 0.95 true. The actual correction varied with height and weight.
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I remember doing a GSU ride mach run [J LeB] when the mach transient went from .93 to .96. Honest guv, I was doing everything right. I didn't touch anything, just held the attitude and power and made comment. He saw it too and after a few secs it settled back down to .93. The only conclusion we could reach was that we had hit a large pocket of warmer air. Didn't feel any different, but maybe it just didn't last long enough to take effect...
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Samuel, been there, just avoided the done that.
Stable, inverted, climbing and 20k on the clock going up. Fortunately P1 had the presence of mind to lower the nose and roll erect. At least that is what I think he did, I was just standing between the seats at the time.
Stable, inverted, climbing and 20k on the clock going up. Fortunately P1 had the presence of mind to lower the nose and roll erect. At least that is what I think he did, I was just standing between the seats at the time.