Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
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Grey Matter is Stirring
50+Ray and FJJP
Thanks for your posts which are beginning to get the memory going. I was mid 60's on IX and all our a/c were 301 engined and I don't think they had the T/O Cruise switch then. Pre Sim Start it was all LP air and the usual method of starting was using the Rover as that could be started from the internal batteries and I seem to think we used No 2 as that did not have a restrictor in its engine air - hence the T/O check then of Engine Air Switches 1,3 and 4 on; 2 off. I remember this well as I once got them the wrong way and nearly blew our ear drums in on T/O as well as overspeeding the bootstrap turbine. I could be wrong on using No 2 first.
What I did not remember was that you could cross feed the HP Air after the Sim Start mod. I certainly remember that we set the throttles to full for a Rapid Sim Start on QRA. Perhaps the incident with the crew chief changed the setting to 70%. I wonder if the Artouste was the LP Air starter trolley and the Palouste the later HP Air one?
Great memories are flooding back - many thanks again.
ACW
Thanks for your posts which are beginning to get the memory going. I was mid 60's on IX and all our a/c were 301 engined and I don't think they had the T/O Cruise switch then. Pre Sim Start it was all LP air and the usual method of starting was using the Rover as that could be started from the internal batteries and I seem to think we used No 2 as that did not have a restrictor in its engine air - hence the T/O check then of Engine Air Switches 1,3 and 4 on; 2 off. I remember this well as I once got them the wrong way and nearly blew our ear drums in on T/O as well as overspeeding the bootstrap turbine. I could be wrong on using No 2 first.
What I did not remember was that you could cross feed the HP Air after the Sim Start mod. I certainly remember that we set the throttles to full for a Rapid Sim Start on QRA. Perhaps the incident with the crew chief changed the setting to 70%. I wonder if the Artouste was the LP Air starter trolley and the Palouste the later HP Air one?
Great memories are flooding back - many thanks again.
ACW
The External Sim Start was the exciting one, where the crewchief had an external button he pushed to fire up everything, when the crew got to the door. The captain was first on board and when he got to his seat, he throttled back all 4 engines then got on intercm before strapping in.
Apparently, there was a case where the chief hit the button, but the captain couldn't find the doorkey. The storey goes that the ac started to push the chocks forward by the time the key was found and the door opened. Could have been very nasty, because directly in front of the runaway ac was another fully nuclear armed ac...
Apparently, there was a case where the chief hit the button, but the captain couldn't find the doorkey. The storey goes that the ac started to push the chocks forward by the time the key was found and the door opened. Could have been very nasty, because directly in front of the runaway ac was another fully nuclear armed ac...
The 'ripple rapid' was normally used for exercises or on QRA in the late 60's [set throttles to 70%, select rapid and hit the individual start buttons in the sequence 1,3,2,4. The 'Mass Rapid' or 'Sim Start' was a single button start - the ac was prepped and the throttles set at 70%, alternators set to 'ON'. Hitting the Sim Start button, rapid started all engines together, the alternators came on line automatically and the PFCs then automatically started. ACW418 - in my time [68 onwards] there was always the option to use either LP or HP air.
For us all to remember this sort of thing after all these years one can only conclude that the training we received was first rate, either that or we have a fine grasp of the trivia.
YS
Pontius
That would figure. The square root of 2*40000^2 is 56568.5...
Tim L
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
TimL, thanks, I remember 56... as the maximum but could not for the life of me remember if it was based on the 40k offsets.
Tim L
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember one failed start at Cottesmore. The rapid air system could manage a sim start of all four and a single engine rapid. Obviously the 6000 psi air could therefore be used 5 times and was very useful on landaways.
On this occasion the usual PoWWWWW was a more muted pow... The chief then suggested either another engine or the other bottles with almost predictable results - po.... and again p......
As radar I quipped in 'Any air in the bottles?' The chief assured us that the bottles had all been charged BUT took the little curved panel between the 1 and 2 engines off and found NO AIR. Same of the starboard side.
The conclusion was obvious and we all deplaned and handed the jet back for a proper BF! Can't remember if we flew that day.
On this occasion the usual PoWWWWW was a more muted pow... The chief then suggested either another engine or the other bottles with almost predictable results - po.... and again p......
As radar I quipped in 'Any air in the bottles?' The chief assured us that the bottles had all been charged BUT took the little curved panel between the 1 and 2 engines off and found NO AIR. Same of the starboard side.
The conclusion was obvious and we all deplaned and handed the jet back for a proper BF! Can't remember if we flew that day.
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Vulcan start
Slightly off thread but -
dark night, ground run required for alternator fault diagnosis, crew chief doing the run, me at the AEO's seat. Palouste up and running, crew chief pushes the button, "RPM, oil pressure, JPT - no JPT" says the chief. Considerable delay while chief sratches head, engine still rotating. "Oh dear", says the chief, "I forgot the ignition". Switches ignition on, suddenly we have JPT. We also have a rapidly expanding flame front tearing through the cloud of vapourised fuel at the back of the aircraft. No problem for us, fire section on the other side of the airfield think the worst and set off to damp down the suspected burning wreckage. Blue lights everywhere, shut down, back to the crewroom to rethink and start again.
dark night, ground run required for alternator fault diagnosis, crew chief doing the run, me at the AEO's seat. Palouste up and running, crew chief pushes the button, "RPM, oil pressure, JPT - no JPT" says the chief. Considerable delay while chief sratches head, engine still rotating. "Oh dear", says the chief, "I forgot the ignition". Switches ignition on, suddenly we have JPT. We also have a rapidly expanding flame front tearing through the cloud of vapourised fuel at the back of the aircraft. No problem for us, fire section on the other side of the airfield think the worst and set off to damp down the suspected burning wreckage. Blue lights everywhere, shut down, back to the crewroom to rethink and start again.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
And back on thread, the good thing about a display scramble off the ORP was the 'silent' sim rapid start.
Normally the Hoochin would be running and providing elecrical power but of course it was noisy. For VIP display purposes the aircraft would sit there 'dead' no noise and waiting the scramble order rather than moving up from 15 to 05 and then 02.
The order would come through to scramble and the crew, at a sort of cockpit readiness, door closed, strapped in etc would hit the mass rapid and start rolling to be airborne from cold in about 30 odd seconds. Only think was, as recounted earlier the engine instruments didn't kick in until 70% rpm.
The aircraft would be well on its way down the runway, gyros running up, engine instruments coming on-line and the jet almost flyable before it was actually at 02.
Seem to remember the AEO would start the Rover to speed the elctrics up. The nav kit would be going on computer and ADC only waiting for the NBS and Doppler to catch up.
Remember one Vulcan 1a scramble at Finningley when one jet got airborne on2 and another on 2 with a 3rd spooling up.
Normally the Hoochin would be running and providing elecrical power but of course it was noisy. For VIP display purposes the aircraft would sit there 'dead' no noise and waiting the scramble order rather than moving up from 15 to 05 and then 02.
The order would come through to scramble and the crew, at a sort of cockpit readiness, door closed, strapped in etc would hit the mass rapid and start rolling to be airborne from cold in about 30 odd seconds. Only think was, as recounted earlier the engine instruments didn't kick in until 70% rpm.
The aircraft would be well on its way down the runway, gyros running up, engine instruments coming on-line and the jet almost flyable before it was actually at 02.
Seem to remember the AEO would start the Rover to speed the elctrics up. The nav kit would be going on computer and ADC only waiting for the NBS and Doppler to catch up.
Remember one Vulcan 1a scramble at Finningley when one jet got airborne on2 and another on 2 with a 3rd spooling up.
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Pontius Nav
Were those scrambles made with a full load or at light weight.
Could the Victors exhibit similar attributes?
I only flew the Mk 1 Vs and a couple of rides in a Mk 2 Vulcan with Blue Steel to Woomera. I think they all had electric starters on 112V.
Were IPN starters ever tried? (Iso Propyp Nitrate)
Were those scrambles made with a full load or at light weight.
Could the Victors exhibit similar attributes?
I only flew the Mk 1 Vs and a couple of rides in a Mk 2 Vulcan with Blue Steel to Woomera. I think they all had electric starters on 112V.
Were IPN starters ever tried? (Iso Propyp Nitrate)
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Milt,
I think for VIP demo purposes we never had a full fuel load but on certain exercises (Ex Kinsman) when we were dispersed around the British Isles were scrambled with full fuel (but no weapons).
The problem with a 4 ship ORP scramble was that the first two just left the throttles alone and took off but no's 3 and 4 had to wait so you were throttling back to hold the beast but not too far so you could keep your stream distance. One crew got it wrong and went across the runway onto the grass on the other side. Very red faces but fortunately was only a practice.
ACW
I think for VIP demo purposes we never had a full fuel load but on certain exercises (Ex Kinsman) when we were dispersed around the British Isles were scrambled with full fuel (but no weapons).
The problem with a 4 ship ORP scramble was that the first two just left the throttles alone and took off but no's 3 and 4 had to wait so you were throttling back to hold the beast but not too far so you could keep your stream distance. One crew got it wrong and went across the runway onto the grass on the other side. Very red faces but fortunately was only a practice.
ACW
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..and a wonderful sight a four-ship scramble of Victor 2s or Vulcans was to behold. Once experienced. albeit as a spectator, never forgotten.As for the scramble warning, I, as a fireman [then] made it a point to be never beaten to the pan by a crew in your funny little bus. We'd be on our second cuppa before you lot arrived!
On reflection, in discussing scrambles with my son who has just bought the book, "V-Force" by Robert Jackson [Midland Counties], actual scrambles were a comparatively rare event; in two years at Cottesmore I only ever witnessed one! A huge privilege gentlemen. Thank you.
On reflection, in discussing scrambles with my son who has just bought the book, "V-Force" by Robert Jackson [Midland Counties], actual scrambles were a comparatively rare event; in two years at Cottesmore I only ever witnessed one! A huge privilege gentlemen. Thank you.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Actual scrambles, in the 60s took place on Micky Finn's. The next best was the QRA 02 where we would start and taxi. Sometimes we would go from bed to 02 (2 miles away) in about 8 minutes or so against the max time of 13 minutes.
Scramble interval in the late 60s was increased to 30 seconds stream. First we did I think it was almost every man for himself. I have one shot from the Cranwell ORP, we were the spare crew, with one gone, one climbing and two on and the whole lot black.
The practice scrambles were done with fuel loads as light as 20-30k. Basically transit plus div and min landing fuel. However even at 190k the beast on take-off power I seem to remember needed less than 5000 feet to get airborne (well less).
I meant to say, at Cranwell we did several scramble practise over a few days. I also remember one Saturday our crew had to combat check 5 of the aircraft sitting there. I remember winding it up, checking the NBS (fully) wnding it down and juming in the next jet. I think the whole process took about one hour and that included running all the engines up too.
Scramble interval in the late 60s was increased to 30 seconds stream. First we did I think it was almost every man for himself. I have one shot from the Cranwell ORP, we were the spare crew, with one gone, one climbing and two on and the whole lot black.
The practice scrambles were done with fuel loads as light as 20-30k. Basically transit plus div and min landing fuel. However even at 190k the beast on take-off power I seem to remember needed less than 5000 feet to get airborne (well less).
I meant to say, at Cranwell we did several scramble practise over a few days. I also remember one Saturday our crew had to combat check 5 of the aircraft sitting there. I remember winding it up, checking the NBS (fully) wnding it down and juming in the next jet. I think the whole process took about one hour and that included running all the engines up too.
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Scramble interval in the late 60s was increased to 30 seconds stream.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Lyneham Lad, and that was why they settled on 20-30 seconds.
I had a look at the ODM today, unfortunately the 301 Take-off power tables are incomplete. Never-the-less the answers were interesting.
At 190,000 the take-off run for 201 series and 301 on cruise power and ISA -5 was 4 000 feet. At ISA +20 the difference was more marked. The 201 ground run was 4 800 whereas the 301 was only 4 200.
The climb to height at full power was available though. At 190k the 201 series would take 11.5 minutes and use 6 500lbs of fuel to FL425. The 301 on cruise power would take 12 minutes and 6 700lbs of fuel to reach FL432. But at take-off power it would use only 5 500lbs and take 9.5 minutes to reach FL425.
High speed cruise was also interesting. The 301 could achieve 0.9 mn at 138k FL 500 whereas the 201 could not achieve that until it was at 133k.
Fuel burn was also fascinating. Starting low level at 160k at 350kts the 201 would burn 21k per hour compared with the 301 burning only 19k.
On 3 engines, at 325kts the 301 fuel burn was 14.5k/hr falling to 12.5k/hr on 2 engines. With the 201 series, its fuel burn would have been constant at 15k/hr on 2 or 3 engines.
To forestall the obvious Nimrod question, a 2 or 3 engine low-level cruise was not a desirable option as the aircraft electrics were not set up for that operation and of course the aircraft was due to go out of service in the late 60s.
I also checked to see how often we did a scramble take-off. Surprised me it did and also served to show how 'natural' it became. We did 18 scrambles in 24 months on Micky Finn, Kinsman, Billion (Gpex) and Statex (station). They were not at light weights either as witnessed by the flight times - Almost all flights were over 5 hours and even a display scramble was 2 hours (Cranwell) and 2 hr 50 min (Cottesmore).
I had a look at the ODM today, unfortunately the 301 Take-off power tables are incomplete. Never-the-less the answers were interesting.
At 190,000 the take-off run for 201 series and 301 on cruise power and ISA -5 was 4 000 feet. At ISA +20 the difference was more marked. The 201 ground run was 4 800 whereas the 301 was only 4 200.
The climb to height at full power was available though. At 190k the 201 series would take 11.5 minutes and use 6 500lbs of fuel to FL425. The 301 on cruise power would take 12 minutes and 6 700lbs of fuel to reach FL432. But at take-off power it would use only 5 500lbs and take 9.5 minutes to reach FL425.
High speed cruise was also interesting. The 301 could achieve 0.9 mn at 138k FL 500 whereas the 201 could not achieve that until it was at 133k.
Fuel burn was also fascinating. Starting low level at 160k at 350kts the 201 would burn 21k per hour compared with the 301 burning only 19k.
On 3 engines, at 325kts the 301 fuel burn was 14.5k/hr falling to 12.5k/hr on 2 engines. With the 201 series, its fuel burn would have been constant at 15k/hr on 2 or 3 engines.
To forestall the obvious Nimrod question, a 2 or 3 engine low-level cruise was not a desirable option as the aircraft electrics were not set up for that operation and of course the aircraft was due to go out of service in the late 60s.
I also checked to see how often we did a scramble take-off. Surprised me it did and also served to show how 'natural' it became. We did 18 scrambles in 24 months on Micky Finn, Kinsman, Billion (Gpex) and Statex (station). They were not at light weights either as witnessed by the flight times - Almost all flights were over 5 hours and even a display scramble was 2 hours (Cranwell) and 2 hr 50 min (Cottesmore).
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On a somewhat off-topic/on-topic note, The Vulcan to the sky project appears to have some friends in the BBC.
Was watching their new SF comedy "Hyperdrive" last night and noticed that the serial number of starship HMS Camden Lock is "XH558".
Cheers, SSS
Was watching their new SF comedy "Hyperdrive" last night and noticed that the serial number of starship HMS Camden Lock is "XH558".
Cheers, SSS
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Fascinating stuff that PN!
I believe the two squadrons at Cottesmore, 10 and 15, had the Victor 1A, but the first trials unit of four Victor 2s , "C" Squadron was also there around 1961-62, and the take-offs were noticeably different, if only in the eyes of an uninformed observer like myself!
They Victor 2 also had a shorter landing run, and much better brakes , among other improvements,as I recall, though no doubt the weren't operating at the same weights; or were they? It would hardly be a trials unit if they weren't!
The OC of that unit came over to the Crash Crew for a chat one day, [a very, very, rare event I might add!], and it might help to identify him if I said he was the Captain of that Valiant that had the major in-flight fire and landed with two engines out and a large hole burnt in the wing!
I believe the two squadrons at Cottesmore, 10 and 15, had the Victor 1A, but the first trials unit of four Victor 2s , "C" Squadron was also there around 1961-62, and the take-offs were noticeably different, if only in the eyes of an uninformed observer like myself!
They Victor 2 also had a shorter landing run, and much better brakes , among other improvements,as I recall, though no doubt the weren't operating at the same weights; or were they? It would hardly be a trials unit if they weren't!
The OC of that unit came over to the Crash Crew for a chat one day, [a very, very, rare event I might add!], and it might help to identify him if I said he was the Captain of that Valiant that had the major in-flight fire and landed with two engines out and a large hole burnt in the wing!
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Pontius
When did you Brits convert to runway lengths in feet.
In my day during mid 50s at BD this one from Oz had to try to get used to runway lengths in yards and you mostly suffered (but not too much it seems) with your standard runways of 2,000 yards. It never became instinctive to me as I was brought up on my feet.
Flying up and down roughly between John o Groats and Lands end at night trying to determine the compatability and coupling settings of all those boxes and coupling units of the NBS/Mk10 autopilot was a challenge. Used to want to know where we were at times and the Nav, engrosed in his testing, would eventually say we were over some county or other which to me was completely meaningless. He soon got the message and to my relief all future reports were reference London.
By the way BD tested the Mk 1 Vulcans out to IMN 0.98/415 kias. 0.98 was at the top end of the auto mach trimmer and things started to go pear shaped above. If I hear correctly that you were limited to 0.90 in the Mk 2s then I think someone was being over protective with the service release.
When did you Brits convert to runway lengths in feet.
In my day during mid 50s at BD this one from Oz had to try to get used to runway lengths in yards and you mostly suffered (but not too much it seems) with your standard runways of 2,000 yards. It never became instinctive to me as I was brought up on my feet.
Flying up and down roughly between John o Groats and Lands end at night trying to determine the compatability and coupling settings of all those boxes and coupling units of the NBS/Mk10 autopilot was a challenge. Used to want to know where we were at times and the Nav, engrosed in his testing, would eventually say we were over some county or other which to me was completely meaningless. He soon got the message and to my relief all future reports were reference London.
By the way BD tested the Mk 1 Vulcans out to IMN 0.98/415 kias. 0.98 was at the top end of the auto mach trimmer and things started to go pear shaped above. If I hear correctly that you were limited to 0.90 in the Mk 2s then I think someone was being over protective with the service release.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Milt, my reference to .9 mn is the highest table in the ODM. Agree that above .94 things started to get intresting. Did one air test with John Stanley, ex-GSU etc and I am sure Flatus Veteranus might chip in here, when 'Dad' did a high mach run to about .96 I seem to remember. TAS approaching 525 I think.
Anyway I noticed that the entire back end nav crate was rising and falling bfore my very eyes. As I was strapped in securely and the nav crate was part of the airframe something didn't gell.
Then I realised it must have been my eye balls, uncaged and oscillating vertically out of sync with the pitching of the aircraft. That was the only clue that we were not flying smoothly straight an level.
As far as runways are concerned, we have always been ambidextrous and happy to us 3000 yard runways and 9000 foot ones when the others were not available. My be they were built to British standard in yards and we aircrew had to do the mental conversion with runway DTG boards as an aide memoire
Anyway I noticed that the entire back end nav crate was rising and falling bfore my very eyes. As I was strapped in securely and the nav crate was part of the airframe something didn't gell.
Then I realised it must have been my eye balls, uncaged and oscillating vertically out of sync with the pitching of the aircraft. That was the only clue that we were not flying smoothly straight an level.
As far as runways are concerned, we have always been ambidextrous and happy to us 3000 yard runways and 9000 foot ones when the others were not available. My be they were built to British standard in yards and we aircrew had to do the mental conversion with runway DTG boards as an aide memoire
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Milt
We used to do Auto mach trim runs on the OCU in 1964 and we certainly used to go to about 0.96 on those on the Mk2. I seem to recall that AMT did not start until about 0.9 or was it 0.88?
At the OCU I remember a Sqn Ldr McMaster telling an enthralled audience that he had taken a Vulcan above Mach 1.0 and that he would never do it again as both pilots were pulling as hard as they could with both hands to recover.
ACW
We used to do Auto mach trim runs on the OCU in 1964 and we certainly used to go to about 0.96 on those on the Mk2. I seem to recall that AMT did not start until about 0.9 or was it 0.88?
At the OCU I remember a Sqn Ldr McMaster telling an enthralled audience that he had taken a Vulcan above Mach 1.0 and that he would never do it again as both pilots were pulling as hard as they could with both hands to recover.
ACW