Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
Select & Select Star crews?
Was recently re-reading Andrew Brookes's 1982 book on the V-force. There's a passing reference to 'Select' and 'Select Star' crews, but nothing about what these were. Anyone care to elucidate, assuming the answer isn't classified?
John
John
Thread Starter
Whilst I'm sure that 'flatiron' will have the definitive answer, as far as I'm aware it was just normal crew categorisation. Which later became 'Operational', 'Combat', 'Senior' and 'Command'. Not quite the same as D Cat, C Cat, B Cat and A Cat in other forces; for example, those applied to individuals in the AT/AAR world, whereas the whole crew had to qualify in the V-force.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As Beags said, the old cats were virtuallt similar to the Operational, Combat, Senior and Command with one important difference. Command was only awarded by the GSU and originally very sparingly. It was not normal to have a Command crew on a sqn.
The earlier scheme, which I think mirrored SAC, was Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star. Progression was on both time and merit. It was unusual not to advance one category every 6 months.
On joining the sqn you were rushed through to what is now limited op. This meant you could hold QRA. At this stage we did not do a low-level conversion, that came later. Indeed in 1964 we were not allowed to practise the pop-up 2E attack. We would navigate to the pull-up point but not do the pop. This was possibly because of noise constraints but also the potential mayhem of a 350k/10,000 foot per minute climb over Newcastle.
The key to advancement was the number and accuracy of attacks. In other words the Nav radar held the key to the crew getting better classification.
From dim memory to get Combat you needed something like 3 out of 5 2/2B attacks within about 600 yards. Then 8 out of 10 2A within 1,400 yards and two single 1,000lb HES, one within 1,100 yards and one within 1,300 yards. These are all rough guesses. A Combat crew was supposed to fly about 32 hours per month.
At the other end of the scale the Select Star crew had to get 2 x 2/2B attacks withing 400 yards, 6 out of 8 2A within 1,000 yds etc. This was to be achieved with only 24 hours per month.
Then the 2/3 day rangers to Norway were intended for the Combat crew whereas the Western and Goose Rangers were intended for the Select and Select Star crews with the Combat Star crews getting the Med Rangers. At least that was the plan.
We reached Select Star in Dec 65 after 18 months on the Sqn. The following 6 months was as follows:
Jan 4 trips including one Groupex and 2 Kinsman.
Feb 9 trips including 2 exercises, 2 training sorties and and 5 ranger flights.
Mar was 5 flights including a delivery flight and 2 exercises.
Apr 4 flights including a Ex Coop over France. We clocked 420 k at ll over the target.
May 6 flights 4 were on a Western Ranger
Jun was 3 flights all in UK and no exercises.
In all 131 hours and 9 out of 31 flights were overseas and 5 flights were air tests or delivery.
In contrast we flew 155 hours as a Combat Star crew with only 4 overseas flight.
The earlier scheme, which I think mirrored SAC, was Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star. Progression was on both time and merit. It was unusual not to advance one category every 6 months.
On joining the sqn you were rushed through to what is now limited op. This meant you could hold QRA. At this stage we did not do a low-level conversion, that came later. Indeed in 1964 we were not allowed to practise the pop-up 2E attack. We would navigate to the pull-up point but not do the pop. This was possibly because of noise constraints but also the potential mayhem of a 350k/10,000 foot per minute climb over Newcastle.
The key to advancement was the number and accuracy of attacks. In other words the Nav radar held the key to the crew getting better classification.
From dim memory to get Combat you needed something like 3 out of 5 2/2B attacks within about 600 yards. Then 8 out of 10 2A within 1,400 yards and two single 1,000lb HES, one within 1,100 yards and one within 1,300 yards. These are all rough guesses. A Combat crew was supposed to fly about 32 hours per month.
At the other end of the scale the Select Star crew had to get 2 x 2/2B attacks withing 400 yards, 6 out of 8 2A within 1,000 yds etc. This was to be achieved with only 24 hours per month.
Then the 2/3 day rangers to Norway were intended for the Combat crew whereas the Western and Goose Rangers were intended for the Select and Select Star crews with the Combat Star crews getting the Med Rangers. At least that was the plan.
We reached Select Star in Dec 65 after 18 months on the Sqn. The following 6 months was as follows:
Jan 4 trips including one Groupex and 2 Kinsman.
Feb 9 trips including 2 exercises, 2 training sorties and and 5 ranger flights.
Mar was 5 flights including a delivery flight and 2 exercises.
Apr 4 flights including a Ex Coop over France. We clocked 420 k at ll over the target.
May 6 flights 4 were on a Western Ranger
Jun was 3 flights all in UK and no exercises.
In all 131 hours and 9 out of 31 flights were overseas and 5 flights were air tests or delivery.
In contrast we flew 155 hours as a Combat Star crew with only 4 overseas flight.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hants
Age: 80
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beags
Not sure it was quite so gentlemanly in the 60's when we had the deterrent.
Pontius
I can confirm your sequence Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star but we did low level and 2E pop ups as Combat. Not over Newcastle but Walney Island.
ACW
Not sure it was quite so gentlemanly in the 60's when we had the deterrent.
Pontius
I can confirm your sequence Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star but we did low level and 2E pop ups as Combat. Not over Newcastle but Walney Island.
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, later certainly. At first however we had 3 routes and the one into Newcastle used Ouston Bombplot. There was no bomb plot at Walney Island which would have been a bit too close for Amber 1. Are you sure you didn't mean Luce Bay and West Freugh?
I can still remember the phone number:
'Stranraer 2501'
to which the reply was '76'
followed by the patter of the intended attack profile.
More frequently however after '76' we got "This is Stranraer 2502"
I don't know how many times the operator put me through to this old dear. She always sounded surprised and NEVER ever was she angry.
I can still remember the phone number:
'Stranraer 2501'
to which the reply was '76'
followed by the patter of the intended attack profile.
More frequently however after '76' we got "This is Stranraer 2502"
I don't know how many times the operator put me through to this old dear. She always sounded surprised and NEVER ever was she angry.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hants
Age: 80
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontius,
Like most people my memory isn't what it was but I recall flying low level starting at Lundy Island and going up through Wales coasting out between Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and over the sea to Walney Island. Don't know about Amber 1 but we used to pop up to 11,000 ft and had about 10 seconds to get sorted out before dropping the bomb. Was that a 2E or was it something else? There was a 2A which involved several 90 degree turns and much swearing from the plotter but this was at high level. Never did Stranraer or West Freugh as far as I can remember.
ACW
Like most people my memory isn't what it was but I recall flying low level starting at Lundy Island and going up through Wales coasting out between Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and over the sea to Walney Island. Don't know about Amber 1 but we used to pop up to 11,000 ft and had about 10 seconds to get sorted out before dropping the bomb. Was that a 2E or was it something else? There was a 2A which involved several 90 degree turns and much swearing from the plotter but this was at high level. Never did Stranraer or West Freugh as far as I can remember.
ACW
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, you are right about the low level. I saw surprised to see in my log book that I flew Bomber Command Routes 21, 23 and 24 in 1964 but by 1965 we moved in to the UK Low Level Route. My last Bomber Coomand low level was BC/21/R followed by BC/23/R with just one RBS attack.
From this I guess 21 was the west coast and 23 the esat coast terminating at Newcastle for a 2E.
Looking on I see we did a route from EP1 on the south coast to the Ouston Gate. If memory serves, there was a short cut across the north of England.
Moving on, Gernish bombplot was, I seem to remember, the relocated MRBSU from Glasgow. Lovely spot
. Hated the targets there, one bit of rock always looked like another.
From this I guess 21 was the west coast and 23 the esat coast terminating at Newcastle for a 2E.
Looking on I see we did a route from EP1 on the south coast to the Ouston Gate. If memory serves, there was a short cut across the north of England.
Moving on, Gernish bombplot was, I seem to remember, the relocated MRBSU from Glasgow. Lovely spot
. Hated the targets there, one bit of rock always looked like another.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of the complaints about the UK LL route seemed to come from Garforth as the route was squeezed in between Leeds and the Vale of York airfields.
Ahhh - happy days!
Ahhh - happy days!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gazman - Frank Clapp
Gazman,
Frank Clapp was the pilot of a 213 Sqn Canberra B(I) 6 which crashed near Roermond in 65 or 66 (I am fairly sure of the year, but could confirm it). His navs were Dai Dingle and Joe Sime.
The causes of the crash could be debated, but no blame should be ascribed to the crew whatever, believe me please.
They were, each one of them, fine officers and very fine men. I was very fond of Dai in particular.
The crash came a few years after a 213 midair, in the early sixties, when two aircraft and, I think, five men were lost.
If you PM me with your private e-mail address and convince me you are who you say you are, I can tell you more.
oTd
Frank Clapp was the pilot of a 213 Sqn Canberra B(I) 6 which crashed near Roermond in 65 or 66 (I am fairly sure of the year, but could confirm it). His navs were Dai Dingle and Joe Sime.
The causes of the crash could be debated, but no blame should be ascribed to the crew whatever, believe me please.
They were, each one of them, fine officers and very fine men. I was very fond of Dai in particular.
The crash came a few years after a 213 midair, in the early sixties, when two aircraft and, I think, five men were lost.
If you PM me with your private e-mail address and convince me you are who you say you are, I can tell you more.
oTd
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orpington, Kent
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan News
Reading through these fascinating recollections - would any of you ex-Vulcan crew care to contribute to the Vulcan Restoration Trust's magazine, Vulcan News? As I'm sure you all know, the VRT owns and preserves XL426 in taxiing condition at Southend Airport.
Vulcan News is a high quality, glossy, black and white, professionally produced magazine and over the past thirteen years since I have been editing it we have had contributions from: John Reeve, Dave Moore, Peter West, Joe L'Estrange, Alun Morgan, Don Briggs, Alan Painter, Ed Jarron, Jon Tye, John Farley (who flew the Vulcan on Concorde Take-Off Director trials) and countless others.
If you would like to PM me or email me, I would be delighted to hear from you.
Dave Griffiths
Trustee - Vulcan Restoration Trust
Editor - Vulcan News
Vulcan News is a high quality, glossy, black and white, professionally produced magazine and over the past thirteen years since I have been editing it we have had contributions from: John Reeve, Dave Moore, Peter West, Joe L'Estrange, Alun Morgan, Don Briggs, Alan Painter, Ed Jarron, Jon Tye, John Farley (who flew the Vulcan on Concorde Take-Off Director trials) and countless others.
If you would like to PM me or email me, I would be delighted to hear from you.
Dave Griffiths
Trustee - Vulcan Restoration Trust
Editor - Vulcan News
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: As far from the sea as possible
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
I was just wondering if any ex-V bomber crew could tell me what the "get you home" plans were if it all went pete tong (wrong) and you did have to fly the Nuclear attack mission? Presumably you were given options?
Not a nice thought, i know, but the fact were still here proves that deterrence (at least on this scale) works.
remember seeing a Vulcan take off at Leeming Open day in 91 or 92. Was only about 8 or 9 at the time and it was that more than anything else that cemented my desire to fly, to be able to take something with so much brute powere it made every bone, every sinew in your body vibrate with the noise of a thousand wild horses, to be at the head of that would be some feeling.
Matty
(in an unusually poetic mode - have to go down the pub to calm down)
I was just wondering if any ex-V bomber crew could tell me what the "get you home" plans were if it all went pete tong (wrong) and you did have to fly the Nuclear attack mission? Presumably you were given options?
Not a nice thought, i know, but the fact were still here proves that deterrence (at least on this scale) works.
remember seeing a Vulcan take off at Leeming Open day in 91 or 92. Was only about 8 or 9 at the time and it was that more than anything else that cemented my desire to fly, to be able to take something with so much brute powere it made every bone, every sinew in your body vibrate with the noise of a thousand wild horses, to be at the head of that would be some feeling.
Matty
(in an unusually poetic mode - have to go down the pub to calm down)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Gainsey, no idea what you are talking about. Spotters mag? See PM.
MMMatty see your PM too.
MMMatty see your PM too.
Nice
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: All Over
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MMEMatty,
I started a thread on the 'What happens post visit to Ivan' subject but can't find it despite searching for the last twenty minutes.
Basicially, IIRC from the responses to my thread there wasn't really a plan to come home, maybe land in a neutral country (god knows what that would achieve) or in one case throw the aircraft (and crew) at a target of some sort (bridge/power station/etc etc)
Hopefully the chaps in the know can expand... Please ?
I started a thread on the 'What happens post visit to Ivan' subject but can't find it despite searching for the last twenty minutes.
Basicially, IIRC from the responses to my thread there wasn't really a plan to come home, maybe land in a neutral country (god knows what that would achieve) or in one case throw the aircraft (and crew) at a target of some sort (bridge/power station/etc etc)
Hopefully the chaps in the know can expand... Please ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Vulcan News see PM.
MMEMatty amplified his question about what happened afterwards and this will explain some of it. All the V-bomber flights were fully planned ie from take-off to recovery. In the 70s there was a change of policy and this was not received without argument. From this we can deduce that the crews were all Supermen and DID expect to survive.
The early plans called for some 150 odd V\'s, 1,500 odd B47s and 600 odd B52s not to mention B58s and sundry others. The rockets would have got in first although not in the numbers as inthe later 60s. By the mid-60s the B47s had gone to be replaced by more rockets.
We were certainly on the side of the big battalions.
Fully planned also meant taking the shortest way out. For the deep penetration sorties after a 300 mile plus low level penetration we certainly did not have the fuel to get to UK nor would we want to flying back through the devastation we had just wrought. We planned to get back to our designated friendly country and then try and find somewhere to land.
Did we plan to rearm and reattack? All I can say here is a \'possibly\' and then only in the early days when we might have had more bombs than jets and the Sooviet threat was not fully developed. As the number of bombers built up it was pretty close to 1+1. Not only that but the Soviet threat had also become one of MAD so it was extremely unlikely that we could have launched reattacks.
Plan Dropshot, edited by Anthony Cave-Brown is the US War Plans in 1947 for war in 1957. It makes fascinating reading especially the bits where they postulate what the UK will provide. What makes this so interesting is that it exactly mirrors the later deployment on the V-Force and Canberras - Malta, Cyprus, Singapore as well as UK and this long before the UK had even - in Secret - decided to develop the bomb. This book was printed in the 70s.
MMEMatty amplified his question about what happened afterwards and this will explain some of it. All the V-bomber flights were fully planned ie from take-off to recovery. In the 70s there was a change of policy and this was not received without argument. From this we can deduce that the crews were all Supermen and DID expect to survive.
The early plans called for some 150 odd V\'s, 1,500 odd B47s and 600 odd B52s not to mention B58s and sundry others. The rockets would have got in first although not in the numbers as inthe later 60s. By the mid-60s the B47s had gone to be replaced by more rockets.
We were certainly on the side of the big battalions.
Fully planned also meant taking the shortest way out. For the deep penetration sorties after a 300 mile plus low level penetration we certainly did not have the fuel to get to UK nor would we want to flying back through the devastation we had just wrought. We planned to get back to our designated friendly country and then try and find somewhere to land.
Did we plan to rearm and reattack? All I can say here is a \'possibly\' and then only in the early days when we might have had more bombs than jets and the Sooviet threat was not fully developed. As the number of bombers built up it was pretty close to 1+1. Not only that but the Soviet threat had also become one of MAD so it was extremely unlikely that we could have launched reattacks.
Plan Dropshot, edited by Anthony Cave-Brown is the US War Plans in 1947 for war in 1957. It makes fascinating reading especially the bits where they postulate what the UK will provide. What makes this so interesting is that it exactly mirrors the later deployment on the V-Force and Canberras - Malta, Cyprus, Singapore as well as UK and this long before the UK had even - in Secret - decided to develop the bomb. This book was printed in the 70s.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan Flight Controls
During flight testing of the Vulcan, when ever I wanted precise control over pitch I found that this could be enhanced by using the fingertips of the left hand positioned around the pilot's control rod/tube where it went through the instrument panel. All small stick movements could thereby be more closely monitored by means of this additional feedback loop.
Did any other Vulcan pilots use this technique ??
Of course this raises the question as to the optimum relationship between stick movement and stick force which is best for us humans in our quest for our 'holy grail' -- the ultimate in control feel throughout the flight envelope.
During flight testing of the Vulcan, when ever I wanted precise control over pitch I found that this could be enhanced by using the fingertips of the left hand positioned around the pilot's control rod/tube where it went through the instrument panel. All small stick movements could thereby be more closely monitored by means of this additional feedback loop.
Did any other Vulcan pilots use this technique ??
Of course this raises the question as to the optimum relationship between stick movement and stick force which is best for us humans in our quest for our 'holy grail' -- the ultimate in control feel throughout the flight envelope.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: England
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cold War History
Please accept my appologies if the following is included in the multitude of posts on this topic. May I draw attention to a recent publication by English Heritage?
Wayne D Cocroft & Roger J C Thomas ; PS Barnwell (Ed): Cold War: Building for Nuclear Confrontation 1946-1989. English Heritage 2003. ISBN1 873592 69 8.
This is a fascinating account on the construction of Air Defence Radars, V force airfields, Special Storage areas &c, &c - great for nuclear spotters! Has lots of great pictures and drawings, assembled with the help of th Air Historical Branch.
CC
Wayne D Cocroft & Roger J C Thomas ; PS Barnwell (Ed): Cold War: Building for Nuclear Confrontation 1946-1989. English Heritage 2003. ISBN1 873592 69 8.
This is a fascinating account on the construction of Air Defence Radars, V force airfields, Special Storage areas &c, &c - great for nuclear spotters! Has lots of great pictures and drawings, assembled with the help of th Air Historical Branch.
CC
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone details of the second Vulcan to New Zealand which impacted the embankment when landing at the official opening of Wellington Airport?
The reason I ask is because I was involved with the running of the Air Show, and as a result was first to the scene, complete with RAF Engineering Officers, and the senior detachment commander.
The comments regarding the skills, or lack thereof, of the PinC were enlightening.
Rumour had it that following a ground posting as a Wing Commander, said pilot became a Victor Squadron Commander, and was involved with a fatal crash at Malta, also the result of under-shooting.
The reason I ask is because I was involved with the running of the Air Show, and as a result was first to the scene, complete with RAF Engineering Officers, and the senior detachment commander.
The comments regarding the skills, or lack thereof, of the PinC were enlightening.
Rumour had it that following a ground posting as a Wing Commander, said pilot became a Victor Squadron Commander, and was involved with a fatal crash at Malta, also the result of under-shooting.