Top secret VR numbers. Qantas falling short by roughly $400m in the share raising attempt. ER package that will most likely see 63+ stay on the books. Not looking good for CR.

Secure your future. Take LWOP!

One cannot be stood down beyond Jobkeeper, that's the same as LWOP, which cannot be imposed. Be aware with LWOP, there is no support, you cannot be on jobseeker when on LWOP because you are not unemployed.

No surprises there. Who would throw money into an airline when there is no end to the travel restrictions? Alan may have found a problem he can’t hide from.

Can you elaborate on the mechanism by which LWOP will secure our futures?

Studying full time and paying full fee tuition? Then becoming an overworked and underpaid intern (possibly in a regional location) and then a registrar and then (at least) another couple of years for specialty training?
Not having a go at the industry but unless you're being supported (such as a 20 year old living with mum and dad) - not a viable path for those needing to replace a salary and support a family.

But you will be paid jobkeeper.

You need to do some serious fact checking

Why can't you be stood down beyond Jobkepper? You WILL remain stood down until your fleet is back flying. It's legal, and AIPA don't appear willing to challenge it.

Sure. Its very simple. The company is asking us to take LWOP to help them out. In return they will help us out by bypassing us for redundancy. Those who don't help out the company, will see the CR hammer when and if it comes. When CR's happen (and I firmly believe they will), the people who didn't take LWOP will be kicking and screaming. The company will simply say "we gave you the option to take LWOP and you didn't. Now we will be enforcing the EBA that you pilots only voted on 5 months ago".

Can I have that in writing? Bypassing is for redundancy sounds like like Qantas management speak for “you give us something in turn for some vague suggestion that it may benefit you”. I’m calling bull**** on it.

Yes you can have that in writing. It’s in the LWOP contract you sign.

You sound like a senior pilot squirming in your seat at the thought of all the junior crew taking LWOP and leaving you exposed.

Probably not the right term and in fact, there's really no such thing, that said, there are only two options where you are not stood down unaffected. LWOP and Redundancy and which way to go is dependant on how long this will last and age, type, classification, base.
No change in the next 6 months
50% chance of eradication within the country in the next 12 months
High chance of eradication in the next 2 years.
International Borders remain closed for at least 2 years.

If you use this forecast then there's a chance of being recalled early and going back to work. If you're made redundant then you'll be in the last group in any case, when there's a shortage without any certainty of being re-employed at all.

Unless I was over 55 I would do nothing, roll the dice and let it be.
The over 55's have a bit more to consider.

Ime there is no tit for tat

Because being stood down beyond jobkeeper is the same as being made redundant without paying you and the law doesn't provide for that. You can only be employed in some form, LWOP or redundant. everything else is unemployed.

But we were stood down before JobKeeper was even a thing?

Stand down clause is in the LH EBA.

Sorry but I don’t follow...

Haha you got me.

You go and trust Alan and we’ll see who gets fvcked in the end.

And that is the very reason for jobkeeper, You cannot be stood down without pay indefinitely.

Ok. Qantas lawyers (and I) disagree with you.

No useful work = stand down.

The reason Jobkepepr was introduced was to avoid mass redundancy.

What makes you think that?

They can absolutely stand us down indefinitely without pay. Stand downs were announced before the job keeper program was.

We sure will. The house always wins. You should know that by now. I know which lawyers I want on my side when **** his the fan.

Enjoy your gamble. I truely pray it doesn’t bite you (or anyone else) in the arse.

I don't know where you guys are getting this nonsense from and quite frankly is a dangerous precedent.

You are either, employed, full time, part time, casual, paid leave, unpaid leave, resigned, terminated, voluntary redundant, compulsory redundant.

Stand down provisions are legal in Australia, but not indefinitely, it will be called out and that will be when job keeper ends. Then you'll need to be, back at work, on leave, LWOP, resigned or redundant.

Qrewroom readers will note that Normanton recently outed his true identity in a spat on a thread with WK. Same syntax, same petulance, same over inflated sense of entitlement.

Normanton is pushing super hard for people to take LWOP so he can avoid his own CR. There is no altruism in this - its all about him. Ignore his arguments and lies and statements about what AIPA legal has or has not said.

The game is nearly up for you my friend. Enjoy your redundancy payment and the resumption of your RAAF career.

My EBA and section 524 of the Fair Work Act which states; an employer can stand down an employee without pay where they can’t usefully be employed because of a stoppage of work for any cause for which the employer can’t reasonably be held responsible. Employees who are stood down without pay remain employed for the period of the stand down.

I cant see a cap on how long stand down can be enforced for.

if the company can avoid CRs and just stand up portions of crew at current mgh - very cheap - why would they want to negotiate a lower MGH?

from the goodness of their hearts to get us flying or perhaps they see themselves not maintaining standdowns being tenable, long term... thus forcing more expensive RINs and CRs

Sure and you're quite right, that's because it was never envisaged that a stand down would only ever be a short period, where leave accrued and possibly even leave credits could be used to support those effected. Never would it have been imagined that something like job keeper would ever be needed. Now that we know, it will be capped and that is to the end of the year at this point, an amendment to the national stand down provisions is a stroke of the pen, which no doubt is being drafted as we speak.
It would be and is unreasonable for any employee of Australia to be stood down indefinitely without pay.

Normanton, let me take a guess...
Second Officer in the top 50 of the SO seniority list. It’s ok to be worried, we all are but your constant pushing of taking LWOP on here is no different to the threat being pushed by management.

I wouldn’t expect many to take the ER package but who really cares. This was in addition to the surplus and should the 60 odd not take it, they will slowly be forced out when the blow out their 65 birthday candles.

If you’re enforcing LWOP to protect yourself and remaining stood down then shame on you. Only you know and in a time like this it’s disgusting behaviour.


Its now Tuesday and the company is silent but from what I’ve heard overnight...high 300’s

Happy to hear otherwise.

Also Norm - I put the question to you if you’re being genuine..

Should the 196 be covered - why should we take LWOP and how long for? A future surplus will follow the same process and when would you think a future surplus be announced? Surely when a decision on the 380 is apparent..24 months time?

So to be passed over for a potential CR - Anything less than 24 months would have the same risk as not going at all.

Fuji

Give AIPA legal a call. Ask them about standown time frames. You'll get the same answer I did.

Credit where credit is due. You're smart. Anything less than 24 months is indeed foolish.

My only thought is your comment on "disgusting behaviour".

Is it disgusting behaviour for senior crew on Qrewroom to effectively say "tough luck, last on first off - enforce the EBA. Junior pilots to go". Then when the EBA is actually enforced by the company, allowing a 'get out of jail free' card to be played by people taking LWOP, suddenly I'm accused of disgusting behaviour? Talk about having your cake and eating it too!

Senior crew have the same choice as everyone else. Want to secure your career? Take LWOP. Seniority means nothing. It will not save you.

All good points, it will be interesting to see what happens.

I’d be stunned if it were that high! Between VR and ER I reckon they’ll get to about 180! More than that and it’s a win- relatively speaking compared to the bun fight that 2020 is currently!

Anyone over 65 cannot be terminated whilst stood down, that also creates more problems.

The sad part , it seems ok to pick on the junior guys , oh yeah they need to leave etc.
They are people too .
The company on the other hand do not want to get stuck with a bunch of whinging 50+ year olds so in 10 years they will all retire .
If 300 people have to go then the company will do it the most efficiently, it’s still 300 people .
I find it hard to digest the bottom of the list being treated as they are .
Remember when Swissair downsized they took evenly from the bottom and the top of the list .
Good luck to all !

Top or bottom, pilots, FAs, baggage handlers or engineers they are all people with families and commitments. This is a tragedy beyond belief for everyone.

Seniority has it's place, in the normal world where everyone is equal it's the fairest way of doing it. However for an event of this magnitude it won't be. there's no need to think you're going to be displaced by a more senior pilot, particularly from a different type, that's not going to happen, nor will you see seat changes.
Whilst you can have seniority in your agreement it's not an allowable matter in law, that means a court can't rule on it, which means it won't be heard, it's not defendable. Therefore where a company sees it isn't appropriate to use it, it won't, this is one of those occasions.

Pick on the junior guys? The reality is that at the moment it would be MUCH cheaper to CR the bottom 200 than offer VR for the same number of senior crew. No need to re-train anyone for the foreseeable future to cover those S/Os (and even 737 F/Os if they went from both hauls) and the bottom 200 can be done with a maximum 6 months pay at a much lower pay rate. Five S/Os can be CR’d for the same price as what QF is offering senior crew to take VR.

So far from picking on the junior crew the company has offered them a pretty significant lifeline in the short to medium term.

That line about ‘they are people too’? That applies equally to our senior colleagues who in many cases are concluding their careers a few years prior to when they may have planned and in majority of cases will not get their ‘retirement trip’ either.

The only thing we can really rely on here is the EA. For better or worse, when it comes to CR, it says last on, first off.

This is a crap storm irrespective of whether junior, senior or somewhere in the middle.

Let me edit that for you Keg.

May or will?

I wouldn't be putting too much emphasis on your EBA, or Management just now. The board would be preparing a very specific brief and appoint an independent oversight committee who are not employees of the company. The brief will read something like this.
Identify those airframes in those bases and those staff we need right now, projected forward to the end of the year.
Everyone else stood down to the end of job keeper, then CR, except on LWOP (VR is normally aimed at those few you know are not coming back)
Reinstate those identified as needed over the following 12 months as part time short term, casual longer term.
Restore part time casual lwop as required according to progress.

Which is why you are advocating LWOP so hard. You think if enough guys take LWOP you will be spared from CR.

I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.

My mate Normanton is back! Last week he didn't even know stand down was in the LHEA and now he's quoting it. Priceless.

Stand by for a blizzard of PMs.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ee59f6ac8f.gif

It was only a matter of time. A good rule of thumb to ensure a long happy career is to communicate in your posts the same way that you would communicate to your colleagues in person.

Crikey Normanton. Talk about conflation two separate issues. My post about ‘last on, first off’ was in reply to complaints about ‘picking on’ junior crew. In that respect the EA is the EA.

Still, you should have highlighted the word ‘may’ in your quote from the EA. Sure the company has said that they will skip those on LWOP but you can’t really take that to the bank. For a junior pilot taking LWOP only works if you’re hoping that someone senior doesn’t take it and they’re made redundant whilst you are not and you’re back flying before them.

Where your logic falls down is if the surplus is 300 pilots and 300 take LWOP then the surplus is dealt with and no one is made CR. When your 12 months of LWOP is done and you ask to come back the company will respond with ‘yeah, nah’. You’ll take another 12 months LWOP and eventually come back flying at the exact time you would have otherwise had you taken CR.

I suspect I speak for a lot of crew when I suggest that you should seriously consider LWOP. Perhaps 3-5 years would be a good amount of time?