Hear hear.

I’m tired of surveys and platitudes from the union.
We have an agreement, signed during COVID no less, let’s stick to it. The company doesn’t vary the EA in good times to give us extra pay rises or more paid leave. I have no doubt how an approach for such variations would be received by the company.

Should be more like the Brits , they avoided large CR by taking a pay cut , 16% or something

VR was a good deal matched CR for those under 5 years, about 80% of CR for those who joined from 05 to 09 , further back it wound its way back to 50%
of CR that doesn't happen until mid 90s

The Virgin 20 year pilots got 16 weeks

If you want CR stay, if you don't take lwop & also any "group" opportunities (yes we all know looking smallish at the moment, but 40 or so jobs for stand downs in group airlines to date , NZ QF airlines looking ok, people do retire)

But understand that if you take CR you will return on year 1 pay scales , that will suck up any benefits accrued on stand down quickly, but that isn't even the start of it
Also be aware of 32.7 & the new reduced rates applicable if QF order the A350. If you return from CR as an SO you will commence on $100 per hour rising to a ceiling of $115 an hour after six years & you will be subject to the new B scale that EBA 10 brings in. SO rates at twenty bucks an hour less than the 787

If you complain to QF about above they will just remind you "Well you voted for it mate"

It is hard to see QF doing nothing, all the current situation does is increase the SO wage bill for when flying does return

Boom! Perfectly put.

Higher divisors will mean less crew stood up so rolling stand ups will occur, effectively reducing income by the same percentage anyway. So in effect they pay cut will be the same but the payments less regular, and probably harder to plan a budget.

NJS bases in PER and CNS will also close.

Making way for Network 320 expansion apparently.

NJS redeploying aircraft and crew with a new Melbourne base

Except once restrictions are lifted you can’t keep the workforce stood down.

All will be stood up, albeit on MGH.

The indefinite stand down is a good fear generator, but it’s not how the law works. Hence why LWOP is being pushed so hard. If you can convince a percentage of your workforce to volunteer for LWOP - that’s a whole bunch less you have to pay when everyone is stood up again.

The first stand downs were issued when passengers numbers dropped off because of pandemic fears, before national or state borders closed. I don't think the status of the border was the reasoning used for stand downs. The other thought is that (up until June) there were open interstate borders between some states, yet domestic crews from various group entities and various bases were still stood down as required.

Even if it is I'm guessing there will be some form of restrictions applied to international entry like quarantine, vaccination, proof of negative antibody test, restrictions on entry from certain countries etc for a few years which would allow continued use of stand downs. Maybe it is thought stand downs can be used until flying is back to '19 levels. It may end up in court, but that will probably occur in a year or two. A long way off.

I hope everyone remembers our corrupt Govt leaders especially our head grub Dan when this is all over (if ever!)
There will be a reckoning one day for these grubs and it won't be pretty!

Oh for goodness sake, yes they can keep you stood down. :ugh:

They will keep everyone without work stood down until they are legally obliged to, I know a lot give Normanton some stick, but he/she is absolutely right! Until they are forced to otherwise it ain’t gonna happen. And that means keeping A380 pilots stood down for 3-5 years, they won’t change that unless there is a legal challenge to it.

It’s an agreement, not an award, and I’ve read it.
im talking about 10.4 (a):

“The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months’ notice of termination due to redundancy provided, that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.”

Tell me, how much does the 3 months notice cost the company when you’re on stand down? I’ll save you the thinking time, It’s nothing except the leave you accrue in that time.

so say you have used all your leave (as many have) and you are given notice that you will be made redundant? How much is the minimum amount of pay you will get?

the answer is 3 months plus 1.5 or so weeks AL/LSL that You will accrue in the 3 months notice period.

Interesting nobody really wants to discuss the real issues of CR, when you return, on year increment one , and the new SO rates you would be
paid on return (given if QF order the 350) that top out at $115 an hour on the Airbus WB

The payout is excellent (but they won't pay the three months notice plus 4 weeks per year) , the return is at year one & on a B scale SO table

Arm yourself with the facts , not the she'll be right get a payout & be back on deck in 2 or 3 years on the same bucks - it's not going to work like that

No I don't it's just what the document says, that's all (or my reading of it & sure ain't an English Major)

Why the head in the sand , she'll be right approach , how does that assist people make rational decisions

Nothing like this has occurred before , there are no precedents & if more senior guys are trying to suggest they have seen it all
before - well I just wouldn't agree with that. Seen what ?? , the GFC (we didn't get one here), 2001 (a blip), early 1990s recession (yes was a bit
grim but just nothing compared to this)

We all wish this event didn't happen but it has, we all wish hundreds of Virgin & ANZ didn't have their employment finished but that has happened

We all wish hundreds of people hadn't died in Victoria but they have. I actually saw a post where someone on this section stated the Victorians are getting exactly what they deserve
- how nice , what class - positively gleeful at the events in Vic

There are no easy answers & no easy choices chancing CR is a double edged sword

If the plan is to return after CR there are very significant downsides to consider

Telfer. The recession of the early 90's started as a result of Black Wednesday in 87, it was a doozy. I agree with you that this will be much worse, but it hasn't started yet. Covid is the trigger, but the real impact comes (the trough) about 18 months later, so around September 21, if we have defeated covid and the state borders are open again, that will mark the recovery point. Airlines and Tourism are the very last to recover. So as an minimum around end 23 before some sort of normality is restored. My main concern is that historically we were expecting a recession every 10 years thereabouts, so we were sort of prepared, or at least braced for it. Today people have no clue what to expect, our kids think they are entitled within a throw away society. I'm really concerned when those two things meet.

Please, Keg! (et al, including Angryrat)

I know you are not a lawyer, and you don’t pretend to be one.

I know you have never served time on the AIPA Committee, and you have never pretended to have done so.

So, I get that (industrially) you have no idea what you are talking about. But a lot of people listen to you, because you are a voice of reason, and you don’t hide behind a pseudonym.

So, please get your language and your facts right, because people do listen to you. From a certain perspective, that assigns a certain responsibility to you, whether you like it or not.

The LHEA is not a national award. There is a national award for pilots, you can find it here. And if that was what you worked under, you would arguably be better able to provide for your family by holding a “STOP/GO” sign on the M2.

Qantas Long Haul pilots do not work under the Award, they work under the Qantas Airways Limited (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020.

I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.

I know some management people. And I know they chuckle every time they see “bush lawyers” use the word “award” in forums, because it illustrates how little said employees know about industrial relations. That has and still does include many COM members.

The industry uses the terms “LHEA”, “EBA”, “Agreement”, or worse, “contract”. Never the term “Award”, because it actually means something completely different.

Regards, Fred

That's actually uncalled for and you don't "work" for anyone anymore.

Completely agree. If you had read further to my next paragraph, you would have read:

Well that’s not how Qantas see it and they are the ones writing the cheque.

The VR payments for stood down LH pilots included a 3 month notice period and it was to be paid in full.

That is the precedent. Your opinion is just your opinion.

Dont stress Machtuk.

Dan Andrews means the same to me as what Bob Hawke was to the ‘89ers.

Never forget.

Its not a precedent, only a previous CR can be a precedent for future CR. VR is very different to CR, they were trying to get people to volunteer with VR. With CR the employee has no choice so the company may be less likely to make payments that they don’t have to.

My statement wasn’t an opinion, it’s a statement of fact. Under the agreement they can give notice or payment in lieu of notice. The minimum cost to the company under current stand down provisions is to let the employee serve out the notice period on stand down. They may choose not to do it, but that is entirely up to the company.

I don't suppose it matters now, AJ's going to outsource all that. Tino is setting up the labour hire/training facility and rumour has it there's a few ex-virgin guys looking to change brands.

I understand but I’d like to make a suggestion if you’re open to considering it;
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.

Sorta flies in the face of ANZAC Day does it not

Ahh, ANZAC Day isn’t about “never forgetting” who the bad guys were... It’s remembering the lost lives and how incredibly futile war is.

Good advice- I mean that genuinely. Thank you, all the best to you too mate.

You’re right Derfred. My apologies. I should have used the word ‘agreement’ when responding to whoever it was that was talking about the the ‘industrial court’.

Thanks Green.Dot
I checked back here an hour after posting because I was hoping hoping hoping that my post would be taken the way I meant it and it looks like that’s the case. I just seriously don’t want to see yet another large group of people hurt themselves in this way.
Cheers

73qanda , from a survivor of ‘89 , spot on.

Xeptu. Go away. You bring nothing useful to this discussion.

Very much agree. Go back to Nov 75 and Gough Whitlam's sacking and the "Maintain the rage" war cry. After a few years it just got tired and tiresome, while we should never forget what happened and ideally we should have changed made to ensure it never happens again, the fact that Whitlam lost the subsequent election and Fraser went on to win several elections and become one of the longer-serving PMs shows that Australia moved on while the 'ragers' became bitter and a record stuck in the same groove.

You might want to check your maths there.

You get three months notice (on which you will accrue leave because you’re still employed) and three months pay (on which you won’t). You don’t get the leave accrual on both the notice period and the payout amount because you aren’t employed for the 3 months payout.

You’re quite right. I was assuming the company giving the minimum notice period. If they choose to extend the notice period then they can reduce the payment.

I accept that this isn’t the intention of 15.10.4 but I don’t think there is anything stopping the company giving someone notice while they are on stand down, thereby avoiding paying them for that notice period.

The company has shown that they are willing to withhold entitlements to save a dollar. Look at the poor people who were on long term sick leave.

My opinion:

As a matter of construction, 15.10.4 determines notice period of redundancy. 15.10.5 determines minimum entitlements for redundancy. The two items are not the same. If 26 weeks pay was the minimum entitlement, it would be stated in 15.10.5. Moreover, 15.10.4(b) states that by agreement with an individual pilot, a notice of redundancy may be paid out... The word 'may' means that the payment in lieu of notice is discretionary (that is, it is not an entitlement) - so long as the parties agree.

So, a pilot who's minimum redundancy entitlement under 15.10.5 is 4 weeks would have to be given 22 weeks notice (or by agreement be paid 22 weeks notice in lieu). In 'normal' circumstances when the stand down provisions were not in force, that would amount to 26 weeks of pay. If the pilot is stood down, that notice period should attract whatever job keeper minimum payment is in force at the time.

Regarding the last 3 posts,

Guys, VR has met it’s achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.

It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.

Is that the company's opinion or the unions opinion?

They wanted 196. They got 188. The VR was under-subscribed.

+1 for this.

Tino said yesterday (purely his opinion), that he would be utterly astonished if CR was needed from here.

That doesnt rule it out, just that even from the out going International CEO it’s very, very unlikely. They seem to sincerely believe there is significant pent up demand, and as markets eventually open back up everyone remaining will eventually be needed in the short to medium term.

No it wasn’t. 8 numbers out of 2200 in the employee group is negligible. In 2014 the VR program was far lower subscribed than this year but management deemed that, combined with LWOP, that was enough.

This year they got to within 4% of the target. Someone will be rewarded for that.

You bringing that point up continuously is like those who mention CR continuously. I’d suggest you take the advice you probably got in your first flying lessons in a Cessna about how to solve a problem - “look at the big picture”. Don't get bogged down in minute detail. From a big picture perspective the issue of surplus crew has been sorted out.

Each to their own , I would believe that CR was no longer on the table if company put something in writing to AIPA

The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee

QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date

FFS - years of service for pay are based on your initial SO check to line date. If you work for QF, how do you not know this?

What's the agenda here? If you want to take LWOP or whatever that's your decision. If you're trying to start a pile on, at least wait for the EBA variations where a majority vote is needed.