Your forgetting one thing
LWOP are still employees & articulate back in & likely have first dibs at other group employment EOIs etc if nothing going at mainline when their time is up & because there is at least the same number of pilots employed in other group airlines outside of mainline (Aust/NZ) - well that could sort of be important CR have preference for re-employment when external employment opens at mainline again (nothing mentioned about other group airlines at all) Gee I wonder when that might be ? 7.5 year break after GFC why would anyone think that number would be less ? Oh but CR is such a wonderful deal you will get six months pay & we will all be going gangbusters in a few years time just screaming out for crew project Sunrise will be going off & the Qantas Pilot Academy will be pumping out 500 per year to deal with the pilot shortage. Its all just a big bluff by AJ , they need us skill & expertise as the most elite group of Airline Pilots in the world. Hang in there mate it is all just a big bluff , as Keg once suggested vaccines before EOY |
Originally Posted by Keg
(Post 10858000)
Where your logic falls down is if the surplus is 300 pilots and 300 take LWOP then the surplus is dealt with and no one is made CR. When your 12 months of LWOP is done and you ask to come back the company will respond with ‘yeah, nah’. You’ll take another 12 months LWOP and eventually come back flying at the exact time you would have otherwise had you taken CR.
Lots of backlash from senior crew here. I get it. Your blanket of seniority has come under scrutiny. The reality is that senior crew don't want any junior crew to take LWOP - that is because they want pilots beneath them to take the fall if redundancy's happen. I'm not encouraging junior crew to take LWOP. I'm encouraging all longhaul crew to take LWOP. Firstly it helps the company save $ in this harsh environment, and secondly it may save your career. The company has put the ball in our court. Make your own choice carefully - it may affect your career. |
Originally Posted by normanton
(Post 10858017)
The company has put the ball in our court. Make your own choice carefully - it may affect your career.
|
Normanton
The pilots agreement states that among other things the company has to implement a RIN process before any CR takes place. How does being on LWOP protect you from being displaced? If 100 of the most junior 787/A330 S/O’s are displaced how are they deemed to be redundant? If all current S/O positions/jobs are still available there are no redundant positions just a bunch of displaced pilots on LWOP. Good luck buddy . |
Originally Posted by normanton
(Post 10858017)
The reality is that senior crew don't want any junior crew to take LWOP - that is because they want pilots beneath them to take the fall if redundancy's happen.
|
What other group EOIs are these Telfer? JQ? Unlikely given their own issues. QLink on the Dash? Nope, they’re full and facing their own downturn. EFA? Perhaps but they’re largely seeking those already endorsed and history has shown they’re taking their own back. Network expansion on the A320? So far they’re after those already endorsed and it seems to be targeting JQ pilots in PER.
So beyond EFA taking their own back and Network seeking A320 endorsed drivers IF they get the demand for the extra A320s, what are these group opportunities? Of course if one of those options is likely to be the ace up your sleeve then by all means take LWOP and go for it. CR and being re-employed in 5 years time seems as likely, and pays more, than taking LWOP for the next five years. So what is the ‘long term surplus’ Normanton? Bah, on second thoughts, don’t bother. I’m not interested discussing the issue with you. Apply for LWOP by all means. We’ll see you in 3-5 years. |
the most elite group of Airline Pilots in the world |
Well since the start of Covid there have been three EOIs one a few of months ago to Network and also to EFA
There is currently another one to Network which I understand to be for over 30 pilots , not sure of the original numbers for the first two EOIs Lets say around 50 since the start , no huge numbers but you have to remember this is a decimation of Aviation industries , makes GFC , 9/11 , early 90s recession look like small beer, would also make the 70s oil crisis look like small beer So I would say 3 separate EOIs & 50 places available to only QF group members is very good So who knows what further EOIs will happen over the next five years given that to date in the eye of the storm 50 places are available Airlines that could employ are Network , Qlink dash 8 , 717 operation, Jetconnect , Jetstar Australia , EFA , Jetstar NZ - likely combined have more pilots than QF mainline. & given a lot of QF mainline guys have just left Qlink or JQ , well relatively easy to transition back . NZ seems to be ticking along pretty well Maybe JQ will be back in the game way before QF mainline 737 - seems like a pretty good chance your business clientele just aren't going to fly If you get rolled in CR you only hope is QF mainline , one airline out of the nine in the group in Australia/NZ that has around 70% of crew in Long Haul (Yaaahy LH - the place to be !) So the numbers are around 50 vacancies via EOI in six months during the Chernobyl moment , I ain't too bright but I might be thinking the only way that number will go is northwards Free country & if people view preservation of their annual & long service & various other entitlements as more important - well that is a matter for them I just think they may well discover that they have made a very expensive mistake & be watching their colleagues who took lwop early back in a QF uniform doing fifo , night freight , a320 NZ etc when all you have to show is a CR notice (oh but you didn't surrender your entitlements, you showed them didn't ya ) & a tenuous possibility of reemployment several years away |
Originally Posted by Gazza mate
(Post 10857977)
It was only a matter of time. A good rule of thumb to ensure a long happy career is to communicate in your posts the same way that you would communicate to your colleagues in person.
just argue with him here ffs |
Let me a bit more blunt. If you’re a mainline pilot with A320 time then by all means go on LWOP in the hope that Network open up and need crew with A320 experience. Of course you’ll be competing with JQ crew who are still current on the type and reside in PER but knock your socks off.
If you’re a mainline pilot with previous 717 experience by all means go on LWOP in the hope that National Jet need crew. They’ve got bugger all flying for their airframes at the moment also and their crew are unlikely to be moving on to other airlines so no massive need there. If you’ve got previous Dash 8 experience then by all means do the same. Oh, but wait. They’re in the same boat as JQ and NJS and don’t have enough flying for the amount of crew they currently have and they too aren’t shedding pilots to other employers. If you’ve got previous experience with EFA then by all means do the same given that the EOI they opened up to mainline was filled by crew who came from EFA in the last couple of years. So yep, I can totally see how this option would suit just a small handful of mainline crew. By all means I encourage those who see such opportunities to take LWOP so that they can avail themselves of the plethora of EOIs you see coming down range.
Originally Posted by maggot
(Post 10858150)
no. Doxxing is a d!ck move no matter how you dress it
just argue with him here ffs |
You are assuming that how things are working atm regarding experience required/preferred will remain fixed & static
Where is it written down that other QF airlines won't endorse suitable pilots from other group airlines in 6 /12 / 18 months if they so chose. Do you really think they would hire externals before doing that I hope Virgin get back in the air , but that is no sure thing & if so maybe about 500 crew So Australia will likely remain solely(or largely) a QF group show regarding jet rpt , with Qlink twice as many pilots as Rex Approx 2300 in mainline , 2000 + other QF group airlines in Aust/NZ ; so the other group airlines are half the game They only benefit I can see remaining as junior crew at mainline are that you continue to accrue various leave entitlements & a six month redundancy payment You are effectively putting all of your eggs in one basket & any re-employment after CR would only occur when ML again recruit externally which could well be next decade Lwop gives you a fixed datal return, protects you from CR and you will likely have a shot at any opportunity in the group & they will look after there own as they always have. Why would you rule yourself out of half of the game in Australia/NZ ? |
Originally Posted by Telfer86
(Post 10858187)
Lwop gives you a fixed datal return..... Let’s leave aside the pipe dream that is internal EOIs. Who are they going to train into Network? The S/O on LWOP who will want to return to mainline in a couple of years, or the ex EK F/O returning to Australia and is likely to stay at Network for the next decade? |
Originally Posted by Keg
(Post 10858190)
No. It doesn’t. What if when you want to come back Qantas has already made a couple of hundred redundant and still doesn’t need you? Back on LWOP you go!
You have an agreed return date. On the date of your return, you are an employee again. Of course, Qantas could turn around and announce a further CR program the next day. Or prior to your return, they could negotiate with you for you to take a further period of LWOP, possibly with the threat of further redundancies to help with your “thinking”, but they can’t force you to take another period of LWOP. |
Precisely! You’ve already demonstrated that you’ll go on LWOP to avoid redundancy. It’ll be pretty clear before your LWOP is completed whether you’re needed or not and how likely additional CR may be.
|
It's all crystal ball gazing to one degree or another
But I highly doubt the QF group airlines will employ any externals whilst they have their own guys stood down or lwop Maybe 50 jobs up for grabs to date & they sure weren't putting them on afap That's why all the non-QF guys are just in a diabolical situation - just zero options There might be various strings in taking up a position with another entity - but they tend to minimise that for their "own guys" if you look at QF mainline guys going to JQ - they never had to pay for aircraft rating etc Why wouldn't someone take lwop to protect against CR ? Is the suggestion just to stay there like a lemming & take one for the team ? The message from AJ is help us out & we may well help you out |
Originally Posted by Telfer86
(Post 10858238)
The message from AJ is help us out & we may well help you out
You guys, the tiny minority, sure - go on LWOP and try and "jump" people in a few years time - but if it's such a good idea, why are you trying to convince others..? And what's the plan in 1, 2, 3 (whatever) years time when QF say nope go away again and no more pass over for CR this time? |
Is LWOP really an option. Years! is a long time, you won't be entitled to jobseeker and you have to survive a long and deep recession during that time. what are you going to do for income.
|
Originally Posted by Xeptu
(Post 10858271)
Is LWOP really an option. Years! is a long time, you won't be entitled to jobseeker and you have to survive a long and deep recession during that time. what are you going to do for income.
We’re on a cliff people make no mistake. |
Originally Posted by Telfer86
(Post 10858238)
The message from AJ is help us out & we may well help you out
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b3a1b55917.gif |
Why would you be thinking about LWOP if you don’t have another job locked in?
Once you’re on LWOP the company washes their hands of you. You should hope that your new job sticks too because you can’t go running back to QF if you want to. Im getting the funny feeling that QF know that they can’t run stand downs in the long term. I don’t know how they are going to get around it, or afford it, hence the reason to get rid of so many now....and reduce MGH! |
Originally Posted by Xeptu
(Post 10858271)
Is LWOP really an option. Years! is a long time, you won't be entitled to jobseeker and you have to survive a long and deep recession during that time. what are you going to do for income.
There are a few in phase three that potentially look promising, but, they could still be years away from approval for use in Australia. I am by no means a doomsday spreader but you have to be a realist now and the reality is what it is and that's a vaccine with actual research and testing not like that Russian Vodka injection. |
I love the that career advice is being handed out regarding taking LWOP, risking not taking LWOP and receiving a CR etc yet you can't even agree on how long the company can keep you stood down for. I hope people aren't basing their decisions based on some of the "facts" on here.
|
Originally Posted by Afterburner1
(Post 10858646)
the "facts" on here.
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Originally Posted by Wingspar
(Post 10858578)
Why would you be thinking about LWOP if you don’t have another job locked in?
Once you’re on LWOP the company washes their hands of you. You should hope that your new job sticks too because you can’t go running back to QF if you want to. Im getting the funny feeling that QF know that they can’t run stand downs in the long term. I don’t know how they are going to get around it, or afford it, hence the reason to get rid of so many now....and reduce MGH! |
Normanton- where is your latest update? I need some guidance
|
Originally Posted by maggot
(Post 10858650)
but tino said they could! :hmm:
Next time someone should ask them to finish the sentence as laid out in the EA and the FWA? ....you cannot be usefully employed because....??? |
This will not end well , still many wide bodies flying to Australia, they may have freight on them but we don’t really know .
Meanwhile Qantas Long Haul is grounded , no opportunity for them it seems . Or they are planning to shut down long haul and start it from scratch in a Year or 2 , the savings and new contract would be enormous. |
Couple of things.
Qf Longhaul is not grounded. There are A330s flying selected freight charters overseas and some domestic-predominantly east coast to Perth. It’s extremely disappointing that the government is awarding the remainder of the freight contracts to overseas government owned companies. But that’s another conversation I guess. Normanton. I’ve read through your diatribe long enough without commenting. For goodness sake. You joined under an EBA. That agreement has provisions that basically say last on first off. It’s not an entitlement senior people are forcing on junior people. It’s the agreement that every pilot who accepts employment at Qantas works under. So stop this nonsense about senior people out to get junior people. You accepted an offer of employment at the company to work under this agreement. When you joined there were going to be people senior to you who in the event of CR would see you leave before them. Accept it and move on. Regardless of where anyone is on the list, no one wants to see any of their colleagues put through the stress of CR. If you believe taking LWOP will prevent you or your colleagues from CR then fantastic. Take it and be be on you way. But please stop this tantrum and carry about senior people out to get junior folk. |
Is the EA worth the paper it’s written on if the company goes into administration. Let’s face it, the debt levels are higher than VA’s when it went into administration. Add ongoing lease payments and employee entitlements the debt levels surely are north of 10 billion, with insufficient revenue in the short to medium term to service this debt. Company burning 40 million a week before the failed ramp up due to ongoing boarder closures and the numerous executives pay back on the books albeit at 85%( $1,000,000 @ 85% =$850,000 - thanks for taking one for the team guys). Interesting EOFY result announcement coming given the need to artificially inflate the share price for the 100 year anniversary. Senior, junior or LWOP, I think we are all in trouble. Hoping for a vaccine and praying it’s not too late.
|
Originally Posted by Afterburner1
(Post 10858646)
…….yet you can't even agree on how long the company can keep you stood down for.
It's hardly surprising then that there is disagreement amongst the group (and a few not affected) as to how long Qantas can keep crew stood-down. |
188 is the number
|
I thought “42” was the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything ?
|
Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10858709)
There's a reason for that. Both the EA and FW have quite non-specific phraseology with regard to stand-down. In effect they state that a company can leave staff stood-down whilst there is no work for those staff perform for circumstances beyond the company's control. Depending upon your point of view this can mean, in the Qantas Longhaul case, that staff can be stood-down until the first regular scheduled international service is planned through to until such time as any specific fleet has sufficient flying to stand-up all of the crew. The Pilots would prefer the former, the company the latter and any number of interpretations in between.
It's hardly surprising then that there is disagreement amongst the group (and a few not affected) as to how long Qantas can keep crew stood-down. When the legislation was written it was never envisaged that it would be needed for more than a few weeks or all that many impacted. Essentially it's a vehicle by which a company can impose upon you use of leave entitlements without having applied for leave. In many companies they do that anyway these days, for example the christmas shutdown period. All employees are on annual leave that week whether you want to be or not. A draft amendment to that would be in the works, expect that around the end of jobkeeper. Your workplace agreement does not supersede any state or federal legislation. You'll find that in the preamble in the opening statements. |
Originally Posted by dragon man
(Post 10858719)
188 is the number
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Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 10858735)
Enough so CR won't be an issue. Nor will hundreds need to take LWOP, although I think quite a few probably will. So a lot of posts on this thread have just become quite meaningless.
|
So the domino has fallen just as many wise old heads have suggested. Next Early Retirement packages.
Short haul pilots, many of whom were wanting a VR package are still waiting. Stood down provisions and JobKeeper greatly mitigates the short term surplus. Of course the company are falling over themselves to help the LWOP decision. How many CR’s are required before the first SH Pilot is (potentially) affected? (The answer is around 15) A solid floor to CR numbers exists right there because of transfer of business restrictions. How would Network expand if a SH Pilot is CR’d? Oh that’s right...that’s not the company’s interpretation. Good luck. Take LWOP if it suits, otherwise sit tight. |
I don’t think Network will expand to rapidly for the foreseeable future, unless they get a 320 sim in WA or add 14 days of hotel quarantine to their cost base. Even then Ansett sim centre will be closed for as long as stage 4 in VIC go on as mentioned by Dan this could go past Sep if ppl don’t start doing the what they’re told.
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Not really my point. Rather, as soon as SH Pilot is passed over for CR a court case the company could do without...one which they could lose...would probably occur. If CR occurred in pure seniority order and that includes SH pilots, that leaves recruitment in Network and Cobham stalled until that SH Pilot is reemployed in their old position. Dogs breakfast...you bet.
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Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10858709)
There's a reason for that. Both the EA and FW have quite non-specific phraseology with regard to stand-down. In effect they state that a company can leave staff stood-down whilst there is no work for those staff perform for circumstances beyond the company's control. Depending upon your point of view this can mean, in the Qantas Longhaul case, that staff can be stood-down until the first regular scheduled international service is planned through to until such time as any specific fleet has sufficient flying to stand-up all of the crew. The Pilots would prefer the former, the company the latter and any number of interpretations in between.
It's hardly surprising then that there is disagreement amongst the group (and a few not affected) as to how long Qantas can keep crew stood-down. 188. Well done to whomever crunch the numbers on the offer, on the money eh |
Originally Posted by crosscutter
(Post 10858763)
Not really my point. Rather, as soon as SH Pilot is passed over for CR a court case the company could do without...one which they could lose...would probably occur.. Dogs breakfast...you bet.
As a lot of people have now quite correctly predicted, CR will not be required, so any issue with a potential SH redundancy is avoided. Enough have taken VR or will take early retirement or LWOP to reduce numbers to the forecast 2022/23 levels so no further redundancies needed. Remaining crew will be stood down until they are needed. There’ll still be a RIN needed for any 747 crew who didn’t take VR or ER, but the training out of that will be well into the future. |
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