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-   -   QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/633072-qf-group-possible-redundancy-numbers-packages.html)

ExtraShot 7th Jun 2020 03:15

QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
 
This topic seems to have been raised a couple of times in other threads, so to avoid the continued hijack of threads important to others (Air NZ), perhaps the rumors/info could be collated here?

Potential Redundancies are an interesting, though alarming topic none the less, and although We have been told itís not on the cards, itís an entirely possible direction.

Of particular interest may be rumors surrounding a potential Voluntary Redundancy package in the works. The details of which, and the rumored target market, is Iím sure of great interest to many of us.

KZ Kiwi 7th Jun 2020 03:22


Originally Posted by ExtraShot (Post 10804406)
This topic seems to have been raised a couple of times in other threads, so to avoid the continued hijack of threads important to others (Air NZ), perhaps the rumors/info could be collated here?

Potential Redundancies are an interesting, though alarming topic none the less, and although We have been told itís not on the cards, itís an entirely possible direction.

Of particular interest may be rumors surrounding a potential Voluntary Redundancy package in the works. The details of which, and the rumored target market, is Iím sure of great interest to many of us.

Or......rather than speculate or circulate rumours we could simply wait a few weeks and be told what is happening after they determine the fleet/flying plan and crew requirements going forward.

Ragnor 7th Jun 2020 03:38

Well just announced by McCormack the Government will continue to underwrite flights until September. Every bit helps!

The federal government will continue to underwrite domestic flights operated by Qantas, Virgin and Regional Express between capital cities and regional destinations, even as airlines start to add capacity back into their networks in response to rising traveller demand.
Deputy prime minister and minister for transport Michael McCormack will announce on Sunday the government will extend its support package for domestic flights, due to expire Monday, through to September 30.
It will extend financial support for regional airlines to "ensure regional communities continue to receive essential air services" from a September 30 end date to December 31.
“The Australian Government is doing everything possible to ensure the aviation industry is sustained throughout the pandemic so that it can rebound on the other side,” Mr McCormack said.
"The measures announced today will help ensure Australian airlines and operators can maintain essential air services as we map out our economic recovery.”
The original domestic flight package was worth $165 million and enabled Qantas and Virgin to operate around 120 return flights a week. New contracts for the second round of the support package have not been finalised.
The government will also extend a waiver of government operational charges and fuel taxes for airlines; extended a $100 million grants package for regional airlines, and extended partial relief from land tax charges for major airports.
Qantas this week said it will ramp-up its domestic flying from around 5 per cent of its pre-pandemic capacity to 15 per cent by the end of June and to 40 per cent by the end of July, depending on when state borders re-opened.
The airline's boss Alan Joyce said there was pent up demand for travel and his airline had already experienced a surge in bookings for intra-state leisure routes such as Sydney to Ballina (Byron Bay), Perth to Broome and Brisbane to Cairns as pandemic travel restrictions eased.
The federal government was been criticised for not stepping in to prevent Virgin Australia going into voluntary administration in April, with the airline saying the waiving of fuel taxes and landing fees were of little benefit when most of its fleet was grounded due to COVID-19.

ExtraShot 7th Jun 2020 03:43


Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi (Post 10804407)
Or......rather than speculate or circulate rumours we could simply wait a few weeks and be told what is happening after they determine the fleet/flying plan and crew requirements going forward.


Erm. If you arenít into speculation or the circulation of rumors I think youíre on the wrong website.

normanton 7th Jun 2020 03:54

Why would they offer VR packages when they can just stand you down indefinitely? Unless you are referring to the 747 fleet. But again, if they never "retire" the fleet, they can just leave you stood down.

As management and HR have consistently said, there is no time limit to the stand down. This came from the same people who said you cant use sick leave while stood down. We all know how that concluded in the courts.

You would assume they have down the homework on this as well.

Chad Gates 7th Jun 2020 03:59

Norm. The initial package would most likely be directed at 747 guys and gals. They have to admit it is retired soon and that will trigger a RIN.

cloudsurfng 7th Jun 2020 04:24

Bit hard to RIN when nothing is flying...they could do a RIN, but chances are the training for it will be way in the future anyway.

KZ Kiwi 7th Jun 2020 04:30


Originally Posted by ExtraShot (Post 10804410)
Erm. If you arenít into speculation or the circulation of rumors I think youíre on the wrong website.

Good one.....

Rumours and speculation do nothing except increase anxiety levels in those vulnerable and most exposed. But go ahead and fill your boots. Have fun

ExtraShot 7th Jun 2020 06:19


Originally Posted by Chad Gates (Post 10804415)
Norm. The initial package would most likely be directed at 747 guys and gals. They have to admit it is retired soon and that will trigger a RIN.


Iím trying to recall the details of the last VR package offered a couple of years back. A RIN is likely quite a lot more expensive.

I remember it was limited to who could take it by rank and fleet (747/767?), but the more exact details of it escape me. I also recall that pretty shortly after it was completed they ended up with a shortage on the 747 and had to train back onto it... thats obviously unlikely to happen this time.

Buster Hyman 7th Jun 2020 07:28


Originally Posted by ExtraShot (Post 10804449)
... thats obviously unlikely to happen this time.

Oh, so you're new to Aviation...:}

Angle of Attack 7th Jun 2020 07:50

Extrashot, it was a little more than a couple of years ago but by memory it was something in the region of 18 months pay + leave entitlements VR offered to 767/747 pilots, mainly Captains took it.

ANstar 7th Jun 2020 07:54


Originally Posted by normanton (Post 10804411)
Why would they offer VR packages when they can just stand you down indefinitely? Unless you are referring to the 747 fleet. But again, if they never "retire" the fleet, they can just leave you stood down.

As management and HR have consistently said, there is no time limit to the stand down. This came from the same people who said you cant use sick leave while stood down. We all know how that concluded in the courts.

You would assume they have down the homework on this as well.

I guess if you make people redundant now you can re hire them on lesser contracts?

A little birdie 7th Jun 2020 08:07

What was offered in the past doesn't need to be offered now. What is offered to one pilot doesn't need to be offered to someone else. Avagoodone.

Section28- BE 7th Jun 2020 08:36

Federal Government guarantees domestic aviation network
 
McCormack Press Release link here (FOR what the Talking Points/Words maybe, worth....) : https://minister.infrastructure.gov....iation-network

Extract here:


Federal Government guarantees domestic aviation network


Qantas and Virgin Australia Groups will operate a minimum domestic network servicing the most critical metropolitan and regional routes in Australia thanks to a significant investment from the Federal Government of up to an initial $165 million.

Underwriting the cost of the network, which includes all state and territory capital cities and major regional centres such as Albury, Alice Springs, Coffs Harbour, Dubbo, Kalgoorlie, Mildura, Port Lincoln, Rockhampton, Tamworth, Townsville and Wagga Wagga, comes in addition to the more than $1 billion of Federal Government support for Australiaís aviation industry in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development Michael McCormack said sustaining Australiaís aviation industry is critical to protecting livelihoods and saving lives and thatís why the Government has acted again today to provide further support.

"As Australians are asked to stay home unless absolutely necessary, we are ensuring secure and affordable access for passengers who need to travel, including our essential workers such as frontline medical personnel and defence personnel, as well as supporting the movement of essential freight such as critical medicine and personal protective equipment," Mr McCormack said.

"We know that a strong domestic aviation network is critical to Australiaís success and todayís announcement demonstrates our commitment, yet again, to maintaining connectivity during this pandemic.

"This investment will also help Australians returning from overseas, who find themselves in a different city after 14 days of mandatory quarantine, complete their journey home safely."

This announcement complements the actions the Federal Liberal and Nationals Government has already taken to underwrite international flights to help Australians get home, as well as flights to our regional and remote communities through the $198 million Regional Airlines Network Support program announced on 28 March and the $715 million package announced on 18 March.

These arrangements will last for an initial eight weeks with a review mechanism in place, where the Government will continue to monitor the market and determine if further action is required..

We continue to support every Australian to get to the other side of this pandemic with more than $320 billion of investment, including our $130 billion JobKeeper Payment to support workers and businesses.

Media Contact:

Mr McCormack Ė Tess Salmon 0467 740 017 | Dean Shachar 0418 202 860
Rgds all
S28- BE

ExtraShot 7th Jun 2020 09:05


Originally Posted by Angle of Attack (Post 10804481)
Extrashot, it was a little more than a couple of years ago but by memory it was something in the region of 18 months pay + leave entitlements VR offered to 767/747 pilots, mainly Captains took it.


Cheers. Yes, I do remember it being not too bad of an offer. Not extremely wide ranging in terms of who was eligible though.

dolphi 7th Jun 2020 09:19

If you believe that redundancies aren't on the way across the board within the Qantas group, youíre living in an alternate reality. The increasing cost in accruing annual leave without any flying across some fleets is a cost Qantas can do without. The only question is whether it will be done on seniority or fleet. With the get out of jail free card, and the importance of reducing expenditure, my guess is it will be done by fleet to save in training cost.

Ragnor 7th Jun 2020 09:49

I think international across the group maybe, domestic crews should be fine if there is some on domestic tho I wonder if any will be made redundant on the 717 now QF have purchased it!

Green.Dot 7th Jun 2020 11:09

dolphi is right. If people arenít mentally preparing for the possibility of a redundancy, (Intíl or Dom) then the fall from grace will hurt a lot more. If it doesnít eventuate then great, but I canít see QF escaping it. If you donít want to think about it, donít read this forum.

Good luck all

dragon man 7th Jun 2020 11:57

In 2015 the VR was 12 months. A VR is at the companies discretion and is a minimum of 26 weeks, that means if they don’t want to they can go straight to CR which is . The following package will apply to a pilot who is made compulsorily redundant:
(a) three (3) weeks’ pay for each completed year of service up to and including five (5) years’ service, with a minimum of four (4) weeks’ pay;
(b) four (4) weeks’ pay for each completed year of service in excess of five (5) years;

Further 3 months notice of CR is required. It was alluded to last week by the CP that we would be hearing news shortly we do not want to hear. AIPA are meeting Qantas on Wednesday to discuss VR or CR I don’t know which. Three months notice from the end of this month is the end September when jobkeeper finishes. As Green.Dot says above if you do want to think about it don’t read this forum. I would like to think that they can handle the numbers thru VR , LWOP and maybe something that they have done in the past and that’s leave with pay.

ruprecht 7th Jun 2020 12:01


Originally Posted by dragon man (Post 10804657)
It was alluded to last week by the CP that we would be hearing news shortly we do not want to hear.

I must have missed that. What was said?

ozbiggles 7th Jun 2020 12:28

I don’t want to see it but I think you you would have to say AirNZ is probably a good guide to the future of the red rat, The only saviour would be the collapse of VA. I think that is the only thing delaying the inbound management emails of consultation, right sizing, facing the future etc,etc. I just can’t see any substantial International travel for 12 months minimum. It might get worse too now if all the self serving protestors who are above all law abiding citizens kick this thing off again. I’m not sure how the state premiers can keep the borders shut now when they turn a blind eye to 20000 in the streets holding hands. That may help get airlines back in a more meaningful way conversely, the next two weeks will see.
.

cloudsurfng 7th Jun 2020 12:37


Originally Posted by dolphi (Post 10804536)
If you believe that redundancies aren't on the way across the board within the Qantas group, youíre living in an alternate reality. The increasing cost in accruing annual leave without any flying across some fleets is a cost Qantas can do without. The only question is whether it will be done on seniority or fleet. With the get out of jail free card, and the importance of reducing expenditure, my guess is it will be done by fleet to save in training cost.

get out of jail free card?

dolphi 7th Jun 2020 12:46


Originally Posted by cloudsurfng (Post 10804700)
get out of jail free card?

I think weíve all seen examples of EBAís been totally disregarded due to the Covid-19 economic downturn.

No Idea Either 7th Jun 2020 14:00

The pandemic Surfer........QF will take it to the IR courts and plead for the companys survival, and then they will get the legal permission they need to do whatever they want...

Keg 7th Jun 2020 15:09

To which I hope the response from the court is ‘why did you proceed to put these terms to a vote when COVID was already a known thing?’

didrechambers77 7th Jun 2020 22:32

The Group itself, stands to gain 7--10% market share after the fall of VA.

Autobrakes4 7th Jun 2020 22:38

My take. Redundancies are expensive for the senior crew. A380 crew to be kept on stand down for a long while. Quite a few 747 crew (Cpt's and FO's) will retire. Others handled via a small RIN. I can't see Qf doing a Rin from top to bottom under the contract as it's too expensive and they will go to FW to say it could potentially risk the company and its finances so better to do things another way rather than risk 30000 jobs. I think they would win that. My guess and the cheapest way, make the bottom 300 (or whatever the surplus is) LH pilots redundant at little cost and heavy crew the B787's and A330's in the short to medium term. As flying picks up and pilot numbers are needed again, redundant pilots would be brought back on in seniority order. Yes heavy crewing is more expensive but a hellava lot cheaper than redundancies at the top end by fleet or a Rin from top to bottom. Just my 2c.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE 7th Jun 2020 22:59


Originally Posted by didrechambers77 (Post 10805136)
The Group itself, stands to gain 7--10% market share after the fall of VA.

Absolutely, the smaller Virgin is after administration, the fewer job loses will be required from QF group (on the domestic fleets).

crosscutter 7th Jun 2020 23:43

I suspect SH Mainline pilots might be safe. Flexible MGH (only need 70% of flying back to stand all pilots up) and Jetconnect might face the axe. I’m sure JetStar domestic has similar flexibility?

I agree with many of Autobrakes4 points. I think though the final number will be far less. I guess that depends on us.

Wingspar 7th Jun 2020 23:46


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10804801)
To which I hope the response from the court is ‘why did you proceed to put these terms to a vote when COVID was already a known thing?’

Kegs spot on!
FW to QF,”Why did you push for this EA vote, against some pilots wishes, at a time when you basically shut down the airline in the depths of a pandemic?”
QF were totally aware of the provisions of the EA including CR, RIN etc!
Also QF have clearly stated that the company can run as is ‘til the end of next year?
Where’s the dire need to run outside the EA?
VA probably have that ability through administration but not QF.
QF might be ticked off they’ve run it so well over the years.
As they tell everyone!
As has been mentioned, selected VR to some. Most probably to 380 and 744 crews but not for a while.
This stand down facility is a godsend to the company.
Crew on those aircraft will probably start, quite rightly, to jump up and down as their leave runs out and be insisting the company make a decision.
No doubt hoping for some VR because the alternative is very costly for the company.

Fonz121 8th Jun 2020 00:26

Why make pilots redundant when they could be offered LWOP?

Chad Gates 8th Jun 2020 00:51

Will QF even need to go to FW? AIPA and the pilots are in a difficult position. Agree to the demands of QF (assuming they want to make people redundant by fleet) or risk going to FW to defend the LIFO Or even the seniority principles in total. QF wouldnít go to FW for a temporary exemption to these provisions, they would try to have them removed entirely. Would seniority be in jeopardy? And what would be the odds of success for AIPA based on the timeframe of the LH vote (very slim I would think)? Itís a different bench than that of 2012.
My bet is AIPA will agree to some temporary measure to allow a redundancy out of seniority (with the right of return in seniority) by aircraft type under very strict conditions, along with a VR package by aircraft type. Sad, but thatís what I see.

dr dre 8th Jun 2020 00:52


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10804801)
To which I hope the response from the court is Ďwhy did you proceed to put these terms to a vote when COVID was already a known thing?í

It could probably be argued that when the vote took place the expected period of the stand down was only short term and things were expected to be back to normal within a short period of time. Any long term reduction in passenger numbers only became apparent well after the vote took place, so the extent of any retraining was not foreseen at the time.


Originally Posted by dragon man (Post 10804657)
It was alluded to last week by the CP that we would be hearing news shortly we do not want to hear. AIPA are meeting Qantas on Wednesday to discuss VR or CR I donít know which. Three months notice from the end of this month is the end September when jobkeeper finishes. As Green.Dot says above if you do want to think about it donít read this forum.

No that was not said. In fact TLS has often said he does not see the need to make anyone redundant, if the network you had in 2019 is the one you want in a few years when demand returns time why would you go about redundancies and RINs in the meantime if you need same crew in a few years?

They would be seeking ďflexibilitiesĒ - which could be things like not accruing leave whilst stood down, lower divisors to bring more people back to work, possibility training more onto the 737 to absorb excess crew, theyíre doing absolutely everything to ensure the most people can remain employed in the long run. This would be done in conjunction with the union so I guess thatís why they are meeting.


Originally Posted by Wingspar (Post 10805196)
As has been mentioned, selected VR to some. Most probably to 380 and 744 crews but not for a while.
This stand down facility is a godsend to the company.
Crew on those aircraft will probably start, quite rightly, to jump up and down as their leave runs out and be insisting the company make a decision.

The company has been quite clear they can keep pilots on stand down indefinitely, and even some suggest until the network is back at 100% of the original one. It could be said if there are any COVID-19 related international travel restrictions then at least until they are all removed, which going off government statements at least 12 months, or maybe until a vaccine is found.

Even if they are RINíd somewhere theyíll just be kept on stand down for the foreseeable future anyway as there is little international flying available to do any training.

So I believe there will be no CR (I hope so as well) and possibly some VR, but not much.

patty50 8th Jun 2020 00:54


Originally Posted by Wingspar (Post 10805196)

This stand down facility is a godsend to the company.
.

Godsend for staff too really, find something else to do for a while and at least you will come back to the same EBA while still accruing all your leave.

The layoff numbers around the world are breathtaking. Plenty will be rehired eventually but no doubt on worse conditions.
20000 finishing up with Air Canada.

Chad Gates 8th Jun 2020 01:15


Originally Posted by patty50 (Post 10805231)
Godsend for staff too really, find something else to do for a while and at least you will come back to the same EBA while still accruing all your leave.

The layoff numbers around the world are breathtaking. Plenty will be rehired eventually but no doubt on worse conditions.
20000 finishing up with Air Canada.

Considering the words of TLS in the last webinar, that particular provision seems to be the problem.

Blueskymine 8th Jun 2020 01:30


Originally Posted by Chad Gates (Post 10805235)
Considering the words of TLS in the last webinar, that particular provision seems to be the problem.

It may be,

but thatís the price QF have got to pay for the flexibility of having the crew there for a fast ramp up.

It takes a year to run a recruitment campaign and have a pilot in the seat at the end of it......

Chad Gates 8th Jun 2020 01:44


Originally Posted by Blueskymine (Post 10805242)
It may be,

but that’s the price QF have got to pay for the flexibility of having the crew there for a fast ramp up.

It takes a year to run a recruitment campaign and have a pilot in the seat at the end of it......

fair enough, and if TLS used the word “flexibility” less than 50 times, I’d be surprised.
I don’t think they would need to recruit, and really, having them (I’m meaning very junior S/O’s) return from redundancy in seniority order, would serve exactly the same purpose as a stand down. Pilots made redundant could of course seek other employment, but they can do that while stood down also.

OnceBitten 8th Jun 2020 02:34

Provisions are written into the awards to deal with downturns, unforeseen circumstances and times of financial hardships, that is why they are included in agreements. If every time one of the mentioned occurred and Qantas ran to FW the question would have to be asked why do you continually agree to these provisions that you are a signatory to if you have no intentions of following them? Qantas in the past has followed the reduction in numbers process over the last 15 years but we continue to see many still jumping at shadows and screaming from the roof tops that the world will cave in and we are all screwed, this hasn't happened. In the grand scheme of things a RIN is not expensive, we have over 30,000 people employed in Qantas on various pay scales and conditions so for about 100 pilots to be absorbed throughout the network isn't the great financial burden that we are convincing ourselves it is. From what I've heard I certainly do not believe the company will go rouge but I do believe there will be tough times for all of us, things are certainly not going to happen as fast as we would like, flexible working arrangements will be required for the interim and there probably will be a few that have flown their last sectors for QF. But the intentions of the award will be followed.

Keep well.

Bug Smasher Smasher 8th Jun 2020 02:41

Consider the cost of redundancy payments for crew with 20, 30, 40 years of service and then allowing them to return to work, with the associated training costs; compared to a RIN and trickle down training costs; and compare that too to keeping people stood down.

dr dre 8th Jun 2020 03:25


Originally Posted by OnceBitten (Post 10805260)
In the grand scheme of things a RIN is not expensive, we have over 30,000 people employed in Qantas on various pay scales and conditions so for about 100 pilots to be absorbed throughout the network isn't the great financial burden that we are convincing ourselves it is.

Thereís probably only 100-150 ish 747 pilots remaining anyway. From what Iím led to believe a lot of them were planning on retiring when the fleet retired so they were going anyway. Add to that the retirements that probably wouldíve been occurring on other fleets in the next 12 months and thatíll sort out the remaining 747 numbers. Donít forget the 150 pilots who wonít be recruited into mainline to replace those retiring 747 (and other) pilots over the next 12 months are sort of job losses in a way.

If there is a permanent reduction in any other fleets (not just shorter term stand downs) then thereíll be the need to talk of surpluses, but it doesnít look like theyíre proceeding on that path from anything which has been said at the moment.


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