I doubt wages will return to pre COVID levels for a few years and A380's future is highly uncertain. If I was 60+ I'd try for the best VR/early retirement package I could get. Take a few feet off the length of the boat you're planning on buying and console yourself that you can start doing the things you want a few years earlier and your health will be better with a few years less long haul flying damage.

Singapore Airlines will be offering early retirement to pilots over the age of 50 with 15+ years of service. Leaving in your 50s is a different matter as unless you have done really well financially i.e. joined young, got an early command, stayed married to the same woman and made some good investments it would be a stretch. Most pilots would need the remaining 10 years to finish off the mortgage and fill up the retirement pot before pulling the plug.

Below 50 I would be clinging on as hard as I could unless I had an alternate career or business that I could easily step into.

Unfortunately, most of us in the latter part of our careers are going to have to lower our expectations of retirement with less travel and fewer toys. Those in their 30s and 40s who can remain employed should be okay as time is on their side.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....86d1e59555.png
The Vr package for a Captain on the 747 is nowhere near $400,000 after tax. For a 35 year Captain the tax free component is $203,349. Min guarantee is 1040 hours at approx $330 an hour $343,200 minus the $203,349 leaves $139,851 at your marginal tax rate.

If the VR was you’re only income for the year tax on $139K is $39K. So closer to $300K after tax.

To go back to B&Blue’s comments, I can’t see myself clearing that amount of money in the next two years. I’ll consider it a win if I clear that amount in the next three! That takes them to 64. Betting big on that last 12 months!

You go Keg!
It is incumbent on those to forever try to get rid of those more senior.
Trip them over in the terminal or whatever!
I’m with you by the way!

Actually I’m very interested in this ‘variabilisation’ thing.
When you don’t actually know what you’re talking about then just make something up.
Common thought is that it refers to a reduction in MGH. How will that save money?
I’m guessing that those stood up are flying to, or at least planning on flying, MGH. So why the need to reduce it?
What if after January when the feds lift international travel bans that QF are forced to stand everyone up?
A lot less costly if everyone is on reduced MGH?
Is that ‘variabilisation’?
I guess at least people will be stood up?

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I heard something rather profound yesterday.

Get a 1 metre ruler and assume each centimetre is equal to a year. Assuming you get to close to 100 years before curtains, how many centimetres have you got left? My bet is nowhere near enough.

If you can, take the package and run, go fly something light and fun and real, remember why you got into flying in the first place, remember the smell of 100LL and hot oil. Talk copious amounts of **** in and around hangars. Try and pass on some war stories and knowledge to the beginners, even take them flying. Its an awesome way to waste a weekend, I assure you.

Or go and be a grotty yachtty, bob up and down the east coast living on the smell of an oily rag. Or go and be a grey nomad (but please dont). Or take up woodworking, or cottage gardening. Or write your memoirs, something for your children and grandchildren to read after you’re gone. Or get big dark/reflective glasses and become a professional ornithologist.

I am hopefully, just over a third of my way through and I already feel shortchanged on length (of life that is, well on everything if I’m being honest). I wish you all the best in your decision making, may you make the best decision for a happy life.

j3

No doubt in 11.5 years just after I’ve turned 61 people will be encouraging me to take the deal on offer then too!

A lower MGH allows a couple of things in the medium term. In terms of rostering it doesn’t mean much when the divisor sits below ~90 per BP (equivalent to month on, month off). Once the flying increases above about 90/ month on, month off, that’s where a lower divisor of 100, 120, 140 (per 8 week BP) enables things to ramp back up without putting significant additional costs on the business (for which there is no income to cover the additional $$$ to pay everyone 160 when they’re only flying 100, 120, 140, etc).

Of course QF may argue that a lower MGH lowers the cost of AL and LSL accrued with that lower MGH. I’d need to see some serious quid pro quo to consider devaluing any AL or LSL accrued whilst stood down post a variation vote. I’m somewhat ambivalent about what that could look like. Perhaps even equity and various bonuses tied to the CEOs for the next decade or so.

This.

There are plenty of people doing it tough out there at the moment, granted, but this is just a step too far. If you take VR or, heaven forbid, are made CR, then your accrued leave is paid out the full rate. I won’t be able to support a reduction to MGH if it devalues accrued leave.

Why reduce mgh when we can just be stood up as needed to hit the hours? Or is there an end of stand downs foreseen with a bill to be avoided, for better or worse

It depends on what you mean by ‘accrued leave’. The company is on record that any leave currently in your leave bank retains full value. However it appears from reading between the lines on webinars that with a lower MGH, leave accrued in the future with a lower MGH will have a lower value.

Again, it’d have to be a massive quid pro quo to seriously consider this.

I must have misheard that, I thought Tino said they would look at it. I’ll take your word for it.

Still, in my humble opinion, being stood down without pay is being pretty darn flexible and allows QF to variablise my cost base enough. On the other hand they could variablise me right out the door so I get that perspective is required.

Exactly!
You can’t vary your wages bill anymore than stand employees down with no pay.

If any one can get blood from a stone it’s Qantas, they will threaten and bully until they get what they want.

The quid pro quo will be "We're offering you additional chances to do some flying and earn at least half of your normal income." Whilst the number of pilots who benefit from that outnumber the pilots who will be relying to any degree on previously and future accrued leave for any Qantas income in the next few years, the vote will get up.

With average life expectancy you need to cut off that ruler by the time it gets to your early 80’s. Then it’s striking how little time most people have left after they reach 65.

An MGH below 80 doesn’t allow additional chances for flying. It’s only once MGH is between 80 and 160 that it allows additional crew to fly.

The real question is whether the pilot group is prepared to vote for a lower MGH AND to allow training onto a type so that more pilots can get flying.

Again, a lower MGH that devalues future leave accrual would need to be part of a package that includes such considerations.

I’m happy to accrue leave at a reduced rate as long as there is a provision on the agreement that when Qantas returns $1 in profit and all current pilots on fleet type are stood up, I then start to accrue my leave at 1.5 times the usual rate until the leave balance returns to what it would have been had I been accruing it normally. Any changes to EBA need to have firm conditions attached. After all we have been stood down now, previously locked out, taken pay freezes, negotiated away conditions on promises that never materialised fully whilst watching executive waste money on fantasy adventure like Jetstar Hong Kong and Red Q, invest in other airlines and take home huge bonuses.

Great post hope the majority agree with u, I certainly do

You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.

absolutely

on a fortnightly basis your/my pay is more like a 90% cut though

more than enough

Air New Zealand is a state owned enterprise that has already been bailed out from bankruptcy once this century by NZ government

If it didn't get a $1000 million or so in 2001 - it wouldn't exist

So not a valid comparison , they did make at least 30% of their pilots compulsory redundant

Difficult to think of any pilots who have lucked out like the top 70 % of Air NZ have , perhaps the workers paradises of Air France & maybe KLM

For everyone else it has been stand downs , furloughs , pay cuts , redundancies both voluntary & compulsory

Some of the post above are incredible in terms of their disconnect from reality , concerns about a quid pro quo if MGH reduced , accrual of annual leave at a lower rate
All so unfair , sounds like the bleating in the loss of night credits in negotiations with Project Sayonara , yes we may as well call it Project Sayonara - it will never happen now

You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other

Ollie what routes do you think , that you will be flying in September ? What restrictions do you think the various State & Territory Govts will have in September & why do you think people in Australia would actually get on a domestic aircraft in September ?

So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.

I have been told I am flying again domestically from September, and yes I am one of the lucky ones so far. I have friends at Ryanair, Easyjet, BA, Air NZ and of course Emirates who all are still getting some form of pay. Air NZ has not used any government money .... yet. Pilots have been made redundant within the Jetstar Group already. It amazes me how willing people are to accept the bulls$&t that gets peddled. Yes it is a disaster for the airlines but to try and cut the leave accrual rates for crew who are already on 0 pay is just callous, yet there are volunteers.

What pilots have already been made redundant in Jetstar?

Why would they bother? Stand Down is way cheaper than CR. Cutting loose the bottom 30-40% would be beyond the airlines capacity to fund the CR. Not to mention, at some point in the future, they have to put all those remaining crew through new type courses. May happen though- who knows? None of us do.

Let’s just hope things are not as bleak as you make out!
Slowly, slowly Things will return that much is certain.

NZ company owned by the government with unlimited $, and you're comparing that to a publicly owned company who doesn't have unlimited funds?

What would you like Ollie? Everyone on 86% wage for the next 3 months before the company goes tits up?

Great idea! Ollie for CEO :ugh:

its hard to get his point when youre intentionally trying to miss it

100%. Couldn't agree more. We are currently looking at 196 redundancy's in mainline. And from what I am hearing, there hasn't been much interest in the VR package.

Wait until Allan conducts his next fleet review. My personal opinion is there will be A LOT more redundancy's happening. Want to secure your career? Take LWOP - it's that simple.

The pilots who will be caught with their pants down are those in the 1000-2000 seniority numbers. Good luck all. Tino has given you the option to take control of your future in Qantas, think wisely!

That’s great... Except for the 250ish pilots who have lost their job at air NZ. So it’s not comparing apples with apples.

Also, the fact Air NZ is government owned has nothing to do with the fact pilots are still getting paid. Different industrial laws mean that no one can just be stood down on zero pay.

Correct Slezy.

If the LH EBA didn't have stand down provisions in the EBA, everyone would be on full base pay and we would have had 500 redundancy's 3 months ago.

Nah I get the point. Ollie isn't happy with the company going after AL. If your not happy with it, stay stood down. But don't get caught with your pants down when the CR hammer comes a swinging. Deer in the headlights.

Where can I sign up ‘to be caught with my pants down’? I’d bank the CR package and wouldn’t be something I’d lose sleep over. I’d prepare accordingly but also know I’ve seen it all before. And I’ve listened to people who have seen it all before many more times than me.

AND YET THE LH, SH & EVERY OTHER EBA DOES? Those in 1000-2000 mark on ‘the list‘ would see the equivalent of 6-10yrs ‘Stood down leave accrual’ as a payout for CR. Not to mention the fact they are almost entirely on the fleets that would be ‘stood up’ first.
It’s quite the pickle for the company as well as the crew.

To add to the math, many of these crew would need about a week in the sim & on the line to fly the Maggot again. Putting further doubt to the companies claim that SH wouldn’t be touched. Much cheaper to get rid of a 1-3yr service SH FO via CR. The entire industry is in ‘Surplus’ right now.

You have to be realistic, redundancy will be fleet related , there is no way the company will want to have such a training burden .
Another reason they also don’t want to be left with crews that are all 50+ when they could keep many younger Pilots .
Imagine the retirements in the next 15!to 29 years .

Being realistic is reading the Contract. Being unrealistic is expecting some sort of company sanctioned FWC intervention that will have a material affect on the validity of all contracts in the years to come.
FWA want EBA’s to be worth the paper they are written on.

I’m at JQ I think CR For QF and JQ will be a last resort due to cost. Although JQ EBA is worded differently, 787 pilots or more senior pilots at other bases don’t have a EBA right to displace junior pilots in the bases that will survive this pandemic This will come at JQ discretion. Cost will be the over riding factor for both QF and JQ I’m not 100% of the cost to a business to have crews stood down but be much cheaper than a CR and then the cost of down training as required for QF then the cost of re hire those pilots when it picks up. As stated before one certainty in all of this, it will all come back the question is when.
everyone is just clutching at straws with CR it would have happend by now if it were as seen at AirNZ and other world airlines.

You can’t do a CR without first offering a VR.

It's nice to think that. I kind of agree that cost should be the main factor. Yet long time posters here forget who we are dealing with. How much money has Allan wasted on Jetstar ventures, Red Q, lock downs etc? He's happy to waste hundreds of millions to spite pilots and get his way. Never forget that.

What pilots view as being screwed, CEO/Board of Directors view as logical business sense. They are not out to screw you, to do so doesn't make any logical business sense.
Given the magnitude of this event though, probably isn't going to change the way you feel that you have been or about to be treated.
What normanton is saying is pretty much right as blunt and as ugly as that is.

You can be certain that seniority will play no part in this at all. It will be purely Type, Classification, Base, Age and the likelihood of a return to service in the near future.

Those made Redundant, won't be paid in full straight away, It'll be over a few years, unless it's voluntary, as much as it pains me to say, if you're much over 50 and on a type that is less likely to be returned to service any time soon, I would seriously consider the voluntary option.

You truly are out of your depth here. Fair Work Act s524. If you don't understand the relationship and hierarchy between your own contract and the FWA then STOP GOSSIPING.

Well said that person

You are absolutely missing my point; airlines around the world are being forced to pay staff wages as local employment law doesn't allow for stand downs on no pay. Qantas are exceptionally lucky in that they exist in a country where they can stand down people on no pay, standing down staff on no pay should also come with some responsibility to those staff. The SLWOP deal to me was acceptable in the circumstances, I just find it unbelievable that when Qantas is in the position of not having to pay wages or make people redundant they then come after the only thing that is giving people a small amount of financial relief, and that is the leave accrual. The 2 days a month are not going to be the make or break for Qantas, but it did provide a small lifeline to many of the workers, this recover will be build on the broken finances and destroyed lives of the workers, now if I had any faith that when we are through the other side we may get some of that back then all well and good but we won't. We will see massive bonuses for the management team for seeing us through the crisis and a huge gain in their wealth for all the shares they take in lieu of wages. But as I say if you are willing to offer your 2 days of leave back to the company in some misguiding understanding that we are all 'one team' helping out then that is up to you. And Ragnor, 7 FO's in NZ got their letters in the last week informing them that the Company is proceeding with their redundancies after the union offered any cost savings required to stave off redundancies. Qantas is now using this as an industrial tool to drive down conditions permanently, they will screw over the employees at the drop of a hat and are already showing that, as I have said I will be back working shortly but I am still concerned about those that aren't and just how brutal the company is being. You all say Air NZ has unlimited government funding, they don't, Qantas and Virgin are doing very nicely from the minimum government network at the moment, many airlines around the world are worse off than Qantas but are still managing to pay those who stay on a little bit of money. Yes it would suck to be one of the 250 who went at Air NZ but at least they got a lump sum and will be the first to be back employed.