The reference is to the mainline seniority list. There is no “Qantas Group” list.

That's funny. The Q list doesn't show birthdays to me! I'm not sure if you have lost it, or if you are trying to scaremonger yourself.

Anyone who is 25 or younger is potentially looking at a 40 year career at Qantas. My point still stands, and is valid.

If you go to SH after you hit 65, people who are in the 25-30 year age group could be looking at a 40 years plus career.

Think wisely.

Do any of the "career" SOs or for that matter career FOs on the 747/A380 still think that was a great career move

Not really so employable on the open market , could have got 737 time or A320 RHS or LHS on last lwop at JQ

Sort of incredible entitlement type attitudes displayed by way to many, "I shall stay in the seat for as long as I see fit - there is nothing the company can do to force me to take promotion"

Really the guy above who boasts about "having done his bit" by taking six years lwop to JQ says it all - it's like he thinks he should be knighted. Where was the hardship ? , didn't you
get a free endorsement on the A320 , probably the most useful endorsement & this part of the world & promotion to RHS and likely LHS. & picked up a fat paycheck. Oh how you suffered & took one for the team

So many living for so long in the QF privilege bubble and so far from reality

QF has been for many decades one of the top five employers in Australia

Yet so much whinging from some of the employees - you really didn't know how good you had it

Sorry, I’m a bit slow. Who exactly are you mad at?

Not mad or discontent at anybody , just making a comment about an entitlement culture
But I guess there is a lot of that in Australia these days

Sorry Mr. "Credibility", you were too slow on the uptake. The list is doing the rounds - maybe you could ask some of your "colleagues" for a copy.

If you were as worried as you sound, you'd be listening to (and believing) every word of Saint TLS on the webinar that's happening right now no..?

Good on you champ. Feel better?

I suspect this is because Normanton isn't actually part of the group they are claiming to be.

Tino has said from day one if anybody is made compulsorily redundant then it is a failing on his behalf. There isn't going to be CR. They are merely trying to bluff pilots fearful of it into taking LWOP. Once again Management are merely promoting fear so that they can have their cake and eat it to.

Normanton, 500 Junior pilots take LWOP. According to you, then x number of senior pilots will be made CR. That is at 2 years payout for them vs the 6 months for those junior pilots. If the Company is going to run CR, it hasn't saved itself money, it has just cost itself a fortune.

Stop being bluffed into the LWOP falsity.

What a surprise some free (& unqualified) psych type advice

The reality is that QF have had superb employment conditions for eons & have consistently been rated the
best employer in the country. Loyalty to current & former & those displaced from other qf entities (& found re-employment in other qf companies)
miles beyond any other Australian employer

This isn't the norm, and it is inappropriate & arrogant to simply say "We are the QF boys & that is how we roll. A Qantas pilot does not get made redundant chappy" .
What is happening to the rest of the world is relevant to you, and what is happening to millions of other Australians is relevant & is going to effect you

But you are free to believe your own BS & if I were you I would be saving your smart comments for your next interview, I suspect you might need them

Nice day & out & over from me

(Oh dear me , chappy above is calling the lwop Vs CR a bluff - clearly mmmbop already has applied for lwop)

Certainly up there with one of the most pointless posts i've ever read.

Well that's funny because I'm listening to a webinar right now, and that's exactly what would happen (straight from Tino's mouth).

Have a great day!

Sorry, I stand corrected, it's now second to this post.

Well quick - you better run to the shareholders and tell them the company has devised a plan that is going to cost them 3 times more than if they let it play out as per normal, as opposed to Tino's mantra of finding all the cost savings they can.

So what’s the magic number that have to take LWOP to avoid CR? Is it 500? Is it 1000? I guess A330 and 787 CPTs better take LWOP just in case everyone below takes it and they find themselves next cab off the rank for CR on Aug 8th.

Tino’s tactics are just so obvious.

I guess by the time we find out it will be too late.

There is always two sides to the story. What is best for one person isn't best for the other. This game is run on seniority and in the dire situation the world is currently in, junior crew will need to do whats best for the future.

So you think Aug 7 is a hard line in the sand for the remainder of this crisis? It’s take LWOP before Aug 7 because after that the company will start making CR as per the EA (with associated costs) with no second chance/offer for LWOP (which is cost zero for them)????

Geeze everyone better take it then because what if everyone else takes it.....don’t want to be the only one left not on LWOP. Hang on......isn’t that want Tino wants?

Also straight from Tino is that VR/CR deals with the long term surplus whereas the standown /LWOP deals with the short term issues.

So my not-so-confident interpretation would be that CR won’t be used to balance a lack of LWOP applications. Rather should an additional long term surplus eventuate, say the retirement of the 380, then the process would start again - including the need to make CR a last resort with presumably another round of VR/LWOP offers.

?

What you fail to understand is if the company says "we have a further surplus of xxx pilots". That's exactly that, a SURPLUS. LWOP will not save you. If it's a SURPLUS, it's a SURPLUS. The company needs to remove heads.

I suggest you listen to some webinars as it's been clearly explained multiple times how in the current situation LWOP will not affect the VR/CR numbers.

LWOP won’t affect the VR/CR numbers. That’s true.

However if you’re on LWOP you will be passed over. If it looks like you may be in trouble when you come back, you can extend until such time as you can return.

You will also return before those who stuck around, got CRd and are on the retrenchment list awaiting a pineapple from the uni graduate A team in HR.

If you are reemployed after retrenchment you will return to your original seniority position. However if someone who was junior to you on LWOP returned and gained a higher category/promotion blocking you from upwards movement - your CR payment may be a pittance in the years of lost earnings. It would suck being senior to the FO that you’re now an SO too or worse - captain.

I’d rather roll the dice and take LWOP.

Ok. We are going round in circles. I’ve been in your position before post GFC and I know how fear and intimidation works by this company. Enjoy your LWOP and see you on the other side.

So junior Pilot A takes LWOP for 12 months.

Not so junior Pilot B gets made CR and gets associated payout.

12 months comes around and guess what..flying is back...both Pilot A and Pilot B come back.

12 months comes around and guess what...no flying is back... Pilot A faces new choice LWOP or CR. Pilot B makes the yearly required contact to stay on ‘the list’.

9 months come round and the company can offer employment to Pilot A or Pilot B but not both. Pilot B gets the phone call.

It’s my humble opinion any desire to ‘play’ the system to your advantage is misguided. IF VR numbers were too low and the company wish to deal to a surplus, by all means take LWOP, but any perceived benefits are probably just that.

As others have pointed out VR/CR manages a surplus. LWOP does not. If I were faced with the current predicament, as I was previously, I would say Sit Tight! If things go south take your payment and get on with life. The phone will ring one day.

Also don’t forget the potential impact on Qantas red tail subsidiaries with Mainline CR

You missed one critical point.

ALL LWOP pilots will return before they start calling the retrenchment list. The retrenchment list is only activated once external recruitment begins again.

There’s more pros to pilot A and more cons to pilot B.

Can you elaborate on your last sentence?

A Mainline CR, even in long haul, may create constraints for Network and Jetconnect to recruit. What about Qlink recruitment? If there was recruitment who might ‘through a fair and balanced recruitment process’ get the gig? More questions than answers...but my gut says don’t jump.

A word about culture for our recently ex-RAAF crew:

Years ago I was flying with an ex-RAAF pilot a couple of days after Geoff Dixon assured the F/Os that they would all be captains within five years. He was disgusted with me because I voiced my cynicism about that particular promise. That’s when I realised that he grew up working for superiors who had honour and integrity. So for those who listen to corporate managers, please understand that they are not playing by the same rules that you might think.

I don’t care either way if someone takes LWOP, but I don’t believe that leavers will be able to either leapfrog a senior or be certain of being ring-fenced from CR when the cost delta is so high. Money talks. BS walks.

The most sensible thing I’ve read here so far. As Normanton pointed out on another thread, he/she has slid back into their old job. LWOP becomes an easy option then. The rest of us who have spent the last 15+ years flying jets with a Kangaroo on the tail aren’t so fortunate.

Pay me CR if you want and I will put the money and time towards a new qualification, or start a business so I never have to be held to ransom by pr1cks like TLS again!

I think you are right and wrong..you’d be coming back at essentially the same time.

I still think no CR will be required.

Sorry for my ignorance.
Why does a Pilot on LWOP get a bypass for retrenchment if there is a surplus of numbers ?
What ever happened to last on first off ?
Can somebody more erudite than I , point out the Legislation empowering Managements assertions reference this latest flogging .

they have bypass discretion and they are using it to hold everyone to ransom.

Not true, pilots are called back in seniority order - whether from LWOP
or the retrenched list.

LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
All there in black and white. :ugh:

Not true.
When on LWOP you are still employed by Qantas. They will call their employees back to work first. If you were made Compulsory Redundant sadly you are no longer employed and therefore will have to wait until they recruit externally. This was explained in a recent Webinar.

The ability to Bypass an individual from CR on LWOP Is detailed in the EA. The company "may" do this, they have now stated they "will". Another threat ? Who knows but they are playing a devious game as usual.

If as above you are correct then what happens if you take two years LWOP and they need pilots after one year who comes back first the pilot on CR or can the pilot on LWOP returning earlier than the LWOP that he took Instead of the more senior pilot who was compulsory made redundant? The bottom line is a Pandora’s box has been opened and like a royal commission do you want to go to FWA without knowing what the result will be.

Dragon man. If that scenario were to eventuate and they needed pilots back in 12 month's, then they would contact those on LWOP and ask them if they could or would like to return early. If they could not get sufficient numbers to do that and they needed more, then it is back to recruiting again starting with the Redundancy List.
it is a mess

I don’t agree with you and we can go round and round in circles till FWA make a decision and neither of us knows what that will be. To further complicate matters pilots who turn 65 are not and IMO can’t be forced to retire from Qantas. So, As there are no vacancies in SH are they A) redundant B) can they remain on stand down until there are SH vacancies, accruing leave entitlements and if in a defined benefit super scheme increased super or C) can they be forced to retire. Only FWA can tell us personally I favour B and if that was so it is a nightmare for Qantas.

Ok, so if these numbers are known then why are they not communicated? If as you say the company have x number of pilots in line for VR/CR regardless of how many take LWOP, if it’s so black and white, why don’t they state those numbers? If it’s the 190 then that will probably be absorbed by VR.

LWOP most definitely takes care of a surplus. That’s exactly what happened post GFC. The surplus was solved by pilots scattering everywhere over the planet. Again, given the option of offering more LWOP vs paying CR why would the company take the CR path?

I don’t care if you don’t agree Regarding LWOP and Redundancy- read the EA. It’s all there.

the answer is C.

they can no longer fulfill the requirements of their role.

In your opinion, however I can tell you that they are not forcing long haul pilots who reach 65 at the moment to retire and that’s because in my opinion they can’t and they know it.