The question still stands...are any CR’s now necessary??

QF won’t run a CR program for 8 pilots - TLS is on the record stating this.

Have all avenues been explored as per the EA to avoid CR? No....SH hello 👋 any volunteers? Hundreds.

What is there to renege, if your on LWOP, you can be asked if you can return early or, at the cessation of your LWOP returned to service or, asked if you are willing to extend your LWOP or, made redundant.

ConfigFull is just spreading fearmongering lies to try and convince people not to take LWOP. He wants a nice big fat cushin of pilots below him to take the hit. Lambs to the slaughter.

The reality is that the LWOP contract specifically indicates you will be bypassed in the event of a CR program.

normanton (Mr. Immunity),

Probably worth considering that every Capt and FO on the 787 is qualified to do your job with no extra training (above whatever recency would be needed). Can you do theirs? Every Capt and FO would also have a CR pay out $X00,000 larger than yours.

So, which one would they choose to CR? Honest question, and just wondering if you've played that scenario out when you decided to help the company out.

And yes, I know quite a few SOs who have neglected to fall for the LWOP trick.

Well if you wish to think that your job is safe because you have 8% of your cohorts leaving & you are safe from CR
now , well the best of luck to you
Truly delusional stuff
Sure there isn't a lot of case law on stand downs but they aren't meant to be for years & AJ won't allow guys to
sit around for years accruing entitlements for doing nothing , it isn't going to happen
The game has changed unfortunately from a few months ago with domestic now looking at coming back in the time
frames that would have seemed reasonable for international back then. & international well that is just an abyss
So a new plan will be drawn up with new numbers

Given we now know that almost all the surplus will be taken care of via VR, is it possible we could reduce the amount of CR related talk? It’s caused quite a few people a considerable amount of undue stress, and any further discussion whilst it’s not in the cards is unnecessary.

Ok normo, I'll say it for the third or fourth time: take LWOP if you want.

But if I'm looking for a cushion, then what are you looking for trying to convince people LWOP is a good decision? Self-absolution?

LWOP is an individual decision, you don't have to try and convince people to vote with you. Are you going to be going on like this about any EA variations where you do actually need a majority vote? Preaching from the outside looking in, even though you willingly signed a bit of paper putting you in that position?

Strongly agree with dr dre, what a reminder that most of our problems are just in our head (or planted there by skittish amateurs).

What difference does it make norm. Surely you would be better off being made redundant. i don't see the benefit of being on LWOP over redundancy

Add on the early retirements (up to 60) and you’ve more than taken care of the 196 surplus. The surplus wasn’t 196 VR and then add on the ER as well. It was 196.

So actually the VR was over subscribed.

Does it matter, it's still a very small number

LH flying - you don't actually have a business atm & won't even get to start to rebuild it for a couple of years

But quite sure there is no surplus & CR - well that just doesn't happen to QF pilots

Interesting thinking

You are doing the exact same thing while trying to convince people to do the opposite.

I can see why Qantas would want to trick the pilots into forgoing tens of thousands of dollars in leave entitlements but I struggle to see why a pilot colleague would be the loudest cheerleader of such action.

Telfer’s repeated doom and gloom rants are not based on reality. Almost no serious forecast has zero international flying for 2 more years.

The reality is, you can’t just sack all your pilots and then bring them back when demand picks up. When Qantas got a whopping 6 new 787’s it completely overwhelmed the training system for over 2 years. If you sacked 1000 pilots it would take a decade to get up to speed again when demand returned and Qantas would be left in the dust.

So they have to keep pilots on the books for the inevitable ramp up. They just want to pay as little as possible for them in the interim, hence the ploy that is working so convincingly on normanton.

International and Domestic flying will not be back until there is a vaccine, how long can QF hold on to their current staff?! they will be hunting for more than 196 now as everything has changed and thats the reality.

Reality is, if you're stood down you're not likely to fly again for at least the next 12 months.What difference does it make to be stood down or made redundant for 12 months. You don't think you can get at least 500 of them back in 18 months time. Where are they going. What difference does it make to the training system when your going back to the same aircraft beyond 45 days anyway.

For goodness sakes the company has you all running around with your heads cut off. Just like they want.

The threat of CR is a bluff, at this early stage anyway. They don't want to pay for CR. They are expensive and the chances are they will have to put you back on, whether in 3 months or 3 years thus incurring a second cost. They are scaring everyone and especially the junior to take LWOP {with the threat of CR if they don't} to do one thing and that is to remove the obligation to pay leave entitlements whilst on stand down. No other reason but to save money. They have people believing all of this. They do not want CR, it costs too much.

If this virus runs for another couple of years then sure things are different and none of us may survive but the company will have to follow the EA and CR from bottom up. But at the moment they can keep us on stand down. Going on LWOP only robs you of your entitlements under the EA, sold to you by a company who is threatening CR.

CR is not a threat, it's a requirement. Of course it is to be avoided and yes it will be expensive, that's why you won't get paid in full straight away, it'll be over a few years, no different to an insolvency and arguably that's what it is. Of course they will want as many as possible to take LWOP it's a better option for the company but not really an option for you personally.
When push comes to shove and they have no choice, CR is all that's left and seniority will play no part in it. Being junior won't automatically mean being redundant.

It doesn’t matter to me but I’m not the one constantly banging on that the sky is falling because VR was ‘under subscribed’ when the reality is it wasn’t and hit the target perfectly.

If QF pulls the trigger and enacts these VRs and ERs that by the middle of next year there will be 240ish less pilots in Qantas. That deals with the excess they were concerned about.

Last time QF gave out VRs we were recruiting madly just over 18 months later. Hopefully this time will be exactly the same.

fewer pilots

Come on Keg, we have standards ;)

I could be wrong here but I’m pretty sure Tino said in a webinar that anyone the company has placed in the ER program (i.e. anyone who is 63+) is an addition to the 196.

If there is 60 pilots in the ER program that the company wants gone, then effectively the true number of pilots to go right now is 196 + 60 = 256.

Lol. Oops. Sadly I never joined the RAAF and had these sorts of errors beaten out of me during OTS. I bow to your greater wisdom (and wit!). :ok:

Correct, ER is in addition to the 196 BUT come 2022 when the long term surplus was forecast..the 60 odd will be gone regardless if they chose to take it now or remain stood down for 2 years...the 196 targeted for VR would not be.

End of the day we had 188 binding submissions, with 60 leaving now under ER or forcefully come 2022, a 250 reduction or just shy of 20% in LH.

We all know what happens to the age demographic post 2022 - natural attrition to sort out any remaining surplus should the 380 not come back in full.

Im sure some SH folk will be waving goodbye in the years ahead too.

The ER pilots cannot be made to go while they are stood down, so don’t count on them leaving.

potentially a technicality which I’m sure QF are all over. I dunno...stand them up the day prior 🤷‍♂️

Care to explain that logic a bit more dragon man? Fujiroll has picked the solution!

Read the Christie case regarding inherent requirements of the job, there is no job.

The inherent requirements to be able to operate anywhere on the network are unchanged no? The fact that Qantas has suspended the network due to government directions doesn’t change that requirement.

By all means argue that in court. Lose and they’ve done their $$$. Win and QF will pursue something along the lines of Fujiroll’s idea, the 65 year old will still be retired, and the person arguing the case has has still done their $$$.

You have your opinion I have mine from a barrister , if you can be then please explain why there are a number of pilots stood down still here over 65? I’ll tell you why because Qantas know they can’t get rid of them.

Wow, a barrister. That’s very cool.

Which haul?

Why wouldn't the ER pilots elect to go and take what is on offer (whether or not it is appropriate) ? If they hang on they may not get anything.

because thatd make sense to anyone but the entitled generation

Another goose, because the leave that we accrue is greater than the ER in some cases for pilots that stayed in Div 3 super based on years of service times average final salary is icing on the cake.

In long haul

just like those that defend the 65+ short haul go sick scam

a rort is a rort is a rort

Surely getting on with a Healthy & Happy retirement while this Crap is going on would be a strong consideration? Not much going into the retirement kitty for the next few years.

You’ve already been shown the flaw in that argument. The longer prior to ER is enacted the more incorrect this assertion becomes.

I’m sure your barrister is rubbing his or her hands together at the prospect of running this case. They get paid either way. Who’s the real goose? Good luck!

You blokes are gold you know everything.

dragon, occasionally you post some stuff that is pretty good but you and I both know that there is no single pilot eligible for ER that will accrue more in leave between now and their 65th birthday than they will with the ER offer. These numbers have been done for you a couple of times now on Qrewroom.

But by all means run your legal case. Decrease that amount you’ll walk away with even further. Again, who’s the goose?

You because as I have tried to explain to you but you of course know better we are not going at 65 but will continue to accrue leave while stood down. The proof is in the pudding there are pilots in Long haul as I type this stood down over 65. That’s a fact.

Hanging around at 65 to get stand down leave accrual? Sad