Yes they can, because Jetstar have one EBA covering all their pilots.

from a quick look at the FW website under the JQ EBA 2015

24.2 Application of Seniority

F - retention or demotion in the case of reduction of establishment

Jetstar will do what’s cheapest, which means keeping the longhaul guys stood down for as long as possible.

JQ787 Pilot can not displace a JQ320 Pilot, so don’t worry to much mate. The EBA is misinterpreted by some older guys with this, they seem to skim over 24.2.1 for you, read that paragraph very slowly especially 2nd last line “Seniority will be a major consideration” that is not iron clad the company don’t have to use seniority in this case. So reality is JQ will not down train wide body guys in this environment simply can’t afford to. As for 320 crew the company has been quiet with what requirements in terms of numbers they need moving forward, again that same paragraph applies so if you’re in ML, BN, SY and maybe ADL you could be fine. Judging by your post you’re in CN or OOL I’m guessing.

We should re-read this post every day!

They get it.

The other guys are spot on, seniority being a ‘major consideration’ gives the company plenty of legal wiggle room to do whatever they want.

Even before COVID, I was reminded by quite a few guys to think carefully about going on the 787, because if JQ decided to get rid of that fleet there are no provisions in the EBA guaranteeing that we’d be retrained back to the A320.

Besides, similar to the QF A380, JQ won’t announce what they’re doing with the 787 until they absolutely have to. Unfortunately for a year or 2, that could leave the 787 guys with a fair bit of ambiguity about what bases will remain open/closed and whether the fleet will remain at all.

Disgraceful? Pointing out that for almost 10 years you had only a handful of posts and in just over 4 months you have become a keyboard warrior? You have a weird definition of disgraceful.

What is disgraceful normanton is that you come this anonymous website and post with all knowing authority on a subject and yet refuse to do the same on Qrewroom. If you stand so strongly by what you type, post it where it actually matters on a website that is for Group pilots only - your colleagues, a lot who are under immense pressure right now - and not an anonymous board. If what you say is so important to be understood, because the pilot body just doesn't get it when you do, then why is it you don't post it there? Nobody is going to hold your opinion against you, they are either going to support it or point out why they think it is wrong. What is disgraceful is being an increasingly frequent poster on this website, and not on the one where protections are afforded, and is only for the people who this affects.

Read what overspeed typed. He gets what you don't.

If those guys on the jq widebody think jq are going to pay for 230 or so A320 endorsements they have rocks in their head. The Eba allows the company to effectively do whatever they want, and they will. And what they want to do is expend the least amount of capital possible. I got 99 problems but 787 blue shirts pushing me out of my job ain't one.

Time to re-read 🤣

I haven’t post on Prune for over 15 years, but I couldn’t let this post slip by in the current climate.
Overspeed has hit the nail on the head, great insight for someone at the bottom of the list - looking forward to flying with you when this sh#t is all dusted

Since when have I claimed I'm an all knowing authority? God you talk some ****. You let your head and emotion get in the way of business. It's business 101. Try looking at it from a non-pilot perspective at what Qantas want and need to achieve.

Have a good hard think about why you rarely see junior crew posting on Qrewroom. Once you've worked it out let us know. Last time I looked on there the faithful whingers were claiming no changes to the EBA that was voted up only months ago. Now the company uses a clause in the EBA to the potential detriment of senior crew and it's suddenly unacceptable.

Overspeed makes some very valid points. I think if the government came out and said no JobKeeper extension on LWOP then the majority of people would stay stood down. If they approve JobKeeper extension on LWOP, base will be overloaded with LWOP requests.

A little bit of research for you, perhaps (hint hint check the date): https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...#ixzz31ZzMarZV

If you trawl through my post history like our mate mmmbop here, you will see I have already de-bunked that theory.

As I already said, overspeed1 makes some very valid points. I suspect the LWOP / stand down decision many junior crew will have to make will depend on the government allowing any Jobkeeper extension whilst on LWOP.

If your going to link something behind a paywall, copy it for everyone to see.

Bit of a different scenario wouldn't you say? Back then you could take LWOP and go overseas and work for Jamaican airlines flying a 737. These days your lucky to be stacking shelves at Woolies.

These days you are lucky if you’re a QF captain or FO stood down living off 6 weeks annual leave. Do the maths, thats probably more than a Woolworths stacker gets per year! And for doing nothing except maybe some personal networking and appear in the paper in front of some old flying relic. And still we want JK!? The Govt would have to be crazy to not asset test or income test the next round of JK. Certainly any QF Capt or FO don’t need it. Many more real struggles in society than spoilt airline pilots. Give to SO’s. That makes more sense.

All the years that many of you have been putting trash on Alan Joyce (who has done a great job) will now be paid for. Get ready to be screwed. Someone said it’s not about getting rid of X number of pilots. That is true. It’s about getting rid of as many X number of pilots from coming back to the existing LH award. If you take LWOP, you will be deemed company friendly and when the new QF international starts up on new contracts, you will be in high demand. Either way, there are more pilots than future jobs. This round of CR is the beginning of the end.

This is what you get when HR is in charge of hiring.

The truth and nothing but the truth hurts eh!

Rocks in their heads eh. Lets not get emotional and work the problem.

All the JQ787 skippers are 9+ service so the payout is 16 weeks severance ($70K), plus 2 months notice ($38K), plus AL and LSL, lets say between 10 and 20+ weeks (anywhere between $45K and $90K+). So payout figures at a bare minimum of $110K all the way up to $200K+. That doesn't even encompass T&C Captains.

With an endorsement cost of $40K and displacement of A320 FO's with 1-4 years service (4-8 weeks severance), I think the money would be on JQ retraining the B787 crew onto the airbus fleet rather than CR. Lets hope it doesn't come to that for all our sakes!

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Truth? Looks to be prejudiced speculation to me. Which bit is the truth?

Best advice I ever received at the start of divorce was to compose every message, email, online rant, voice memo, with the expectation either a judge, or my kids would one day read it. I adopt the same principles when it comes to work matters. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however the same message can be conveyed in a way that ins't offensive, and people respect you for having the conviction to say what you think. Lots of people have earned a lot of respect on the Q specific site for doing such, even if the majority disagree. Respect that they can voice their opinions in a diplomatic and appropriate way. The same principle we should all operate aircraft with.

By being controversial on here, it has the effect of drawing plenty of attention speculating as to who the author may be, and often it gets narrowed to a small group of likely people. Some innocent ones get tarred by the same brush. Be careful. Right or wrong, it is what happens. Accept and deal with it. Be accountable.

In times like this, stresses are different for everyone, and for each a different solution will be appropriate. If you have a stable second income, can survive LWOP, I don't blame you for taking it. Sure it comes at a cost, but so do most things. Look at income insurance, pet insurance, paint protection on a new car - some choose to have it and pay for it, others don't. Make a choice, be responsible for you decisions, and move forward not back. Some will be winners, some will be losers. Best lesson you can teach your kids - life isn't always fair. Those who can accept that fact and adapt do well. Others use that reality to become angry and irrational.

For me, I don't think it will get to CR, that is my roll of the dice. If it does, my payout will keep me alive for a while, will find another type of work, adapt and survive. If the company thrives, in a few years will get called back. If for some reason the company doesn't survive, then I may have walked out with my entitlements in full.

Hopefully I just remain on stand down and in the next year or two things return slowly at first, and then get back to normal. Or the picture and options become clearer and I will choose what becomes the best option when all the planets align.

Lot's more people than I expected are very interested in the VR, so I am not going to make a decision on LWOP until that plays out. Again my choice, my gamble, and won't be here slanging those more senior, junior, on different types, awards, demographic, or any other group off. I will accept I made my own choice. A bit like bidding for promotions and types in QF. Some get lucky, others not so, but such is life.

The numbers you put forward add up to some degree, I doubt or be very surprised that there would be a 787 Captain solely sitting around on JK they would be burning up AL or LSL to get them by, there would be a lot of FOs doing the same. So at most if it did come to it the company would only be liable for the 16 weeks the 2 months notice at $36K that's gone because you're on stand down, that's in the EBA also JQ would get away with using stand down as notice at the FWA comission, with the SOs and a lot of FOs there wouldn't be many that would be at 9yrs+. So really will the company want to spend the money which is a lot more than the 40K to down train?! .Also, if you look at the EBA those who have been on the 320 before, well, they have to cough that cash up JQ only pay once nothing is for free at JQ.

The frustrating thing is as PoppaJo post he has been told "Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. I’ve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. That’s a lot of people" It really pi$$es me off to read that, that someone has been subjected to that kind of talk at as time like this. As seen on telegram one 787 guy telling everyone that 787 crews were gunning for all the 320 commands and FO slots in capital city's and bottom 200 on the list are gone, goes to show what a gem that guy is.

The rubbish talk and scaremongering needs to stop on these forums by anyone regardless who you work for, yes I bet there is one that will say don't look then. Well, a lot of others do they cant help it. There was more honor in my early days when everyone was wanting to scrounge around for twin time on the Baron than there is now!

Except it’s not that simple.

Add in the cost of 3 months wages plus hotel & allowances and you can more than double that $40k.

And if/when they are needed again do you rinse and repeat for another $80k? All so you can push out a junior burger?

Besides, unless they were given type / base protection, many of the B787 Captains wouldn’t stand a chance of getting back on the widebody again

It’s good to see the JQ boys and girls can squabble about who should get made redundant as well as our QF colleagues. Who said there was no equality within the group!

just remember JQ peeps, unlike QF, management haven’t even offered us VR, let alone forcing CR so I think we’re jumping at shadows a touch.

I prefer the hypothetical conversation though than the real scenario, hopefully we never find out what the company would do if push comes to shove.

I tell you what they won't do, and that is consider anything else but the survival of the company. Individual circumstance and position on a seniority list will be way down on their list of priorities.

Well, one door closes....:eek:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/i...20-7?r=US&IR=T

That comment goes for all airlines, they don’t care who is number one or has been loyal for 30yrs. All about SURVIVAL..

NZ Jq pilots facing redundancy.

my apologies to our colleagues in NZ, yes that was an oversight on my behalf.

I should’ve specified ‘Aus EBA’ pilots haven’t had any redundancies announced and that they shouldn’t be jumping at shadows just yet.

What of Jetconnect? They fly only international sectors, there are enough mainline crew to operate the Tasman when it starts up again. If the surplus is in ‘LH’ and our colleagues at JQNZ are facing redundancy, how are JC sliding under the radar? It’s all been very quiet.....

BTW...I’m not saying I think they should be made redundant before anyone kicks off!

Dont ask for advice on this forum, that’s my advice. The older have a sense of entitlement. Read your EBA line for line paragraph for paragraph.

‘genuine redundancy’......

if SH were to be included, they would be eligible for VR...no one, not even AIPA, seems to be pushing for this. I suspect AIPA know they will lose any challenge...but a challenge must be made nonetheless. Will probably lose some SH members along the way. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to this. I also suspect.....it won’t.

Junior pilots to do post on Qrewroom. They don't get involved in the frequent self-righteous arguments that occur between a certain few, rather they just post their views and opinions. True some are probably wary because of the vitriol between a few regulars, but thankfully enough aren't intimidated and post providing rational opinions. I've posted on Qrewroom since roughly the end of my first year or start of my second year in the company. I have never felt threatened, intimidated, bullied or worried about my career, and have never had it brought up by another colleague. Likewise, I've never posted believing that what I was saying was 100% correct, and that mine was the only valid opinion on the matter. I've posted trying to add my opinion and see if others have a better reason or more knowledge on the matter. I've certainly never posted something like -

The simple fact is your posts are filled with arrogance, sarcasm and condescension to others. And like I said, you were silent here until just a few months ago where you suddenly went on a mission to prove everyone wrong, and yourself to be the only one right. Claiming that junior pilots don't post on Qrewroom is just a cop out for you. The simple fact is that if you posted in the same manner you post here your true colours would show. The one poster here who is letting their head and emotions get in the way is you, as is shown by the increasing frequency with which you have to keep telling others they are wrong. It has become noticeable in every post you make.

If you posted your argument rationally on Qrewroom maybe it would open the eyes of some, but also it would attract the attention of those with a far greater knowledge than you or I have with respect to the Award and it's workings, and the functioning of the company. The simple fact is posting on Qrewroom means you take ownership for your claims, not hiding under anonymity like you do here.

If only you had an idea how many PMs I receive from people thanking me for bringing light to subjects they hadn’t though about. You would be gobsmacked!

Enjoy your continued stand down mmmbop. Hopefully you are here in the future so I can continue to read your obnoxious, sarcastic, condescending dribble.

I have a fair idea...

Now that your ego has been adequately stroked via PM, is there any chance you can take your dribble elsewhere?

I hear you. If only you had an idea of how many messages I receive from supermodels that want to date me, you too would be gobsmacked.

I won’t reveal them, I respect their privacy...

Lol. You lot make me laugh.

Senior crew scared **** that junior crew will be bypassed in the event of CR.

Secure your job. Take LWOP.

Hook
line
sinker

Omg, we recruited Donald Trump! :rolleyes:

Geeze and people wonder why "89" ended so badly.

Looks like nothing learned in the last 39 years.

Cheers Hoss58

Secure
your
job

The entire argument about just waiting it out and take LWOP later is flawed.

Tino has said multiple times that VR/CR will be used to deal with the long term surplus. LWOP will only be used to deal with the short-medium term surplus. If there is not enough senior crew who take VR, then it's game over for the junior crew. There will be no LWOP offer, you are a surplus, and will receive a CR notice. The CR payout for a junior SO is laughable compared to a VR payout they are offering.

What I find ironic is that during the EBA negotiations, the majority of established crew were saying not to believe a word Tino says! Now hes saying "we don't want to do CR's", and you lot believe him! Have a look at whats happening around the aviation world people. Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

The only date any junior crew here should be waiting for is the 23rd July with the Jobkeeper announcement. If they extend it and it is allowed to be claimed while on LWOP, its an easy decision. If the government doesn't allow it to be taken while on LWOP, then junior crew need to decide if they need the money now, or if they can find work elsewhere while on LWOP.

Don't listen to senior crew telling you to "wait it out". By the time you wait it out, and the CR decision is made its too late. By then the senior crew who gave you that advice would have disappeared onto a tropical island whilst sipping on a cocktail knowing the buffer of pilots they have beneath them. Lambs to the slaughter.

31 years. Hoss

Jobkeeper on LWOP that the employee requested vs involuntary Stand down, highly doubt that would eventuate.

Thanks -41.

I ran out of fingers and toes.

Cheers Hoss58

Although your intentions are unknown, I consider your persistence on this topic a disservice. We will not agree, you will have the last word, and the world will keep turning. Senior vs Junior in tough times like this is a construct you appear to push. The prevailing attitude amongst crew in Qantas in tough times, as seen many times before (from both Flt ops mgmt and pilots actually) is to look after one another. We, at times, begrudgingly accepted assigned leave, took other jobs, went on flexilines as allowed or enforced by the EA. Options are limited this time but there is still so much water to flow under the bridge. Point is, everyone did their part. Of course there were the 2% of dicks.

This is terribly tough times. I feel you campaign for dissent, fear and division even if it’s not your intention, but perhaps feel justified that you’re spreading information for an informed choice.

If 200 pilots took LWOP a part of me would be happy because it would be good for QF bottom line and I care about QF survival. However, LWOP should not be taken out of fear and the premis of the company’s LWOP offer should be thoroughly rejected. I feel you encourage disunity to stoke the embers of selfishness and I instead wish you were passionate about unity for the greater good.