Classic whataboutism.

Xeptu,

That is worrying, considering to be fully vaccinated you need at least 6 weeks from first does of Pfizer, 8 weeks given current constraints, and if AZ double that. It's important that any fence sitters are aware that is the case and that if it does arrive in their town over night they can't just vaccinate the next day and be done with it.

Harvest is going to also be a worry as a lot of city folk will be going country to help, increasing the chance of spreading it in rural communities. Hopefully someone is accounting for this in planning.

BTW I swayed two very vulnerable fence sitters by highlighting that issue of time, they are now vaxxed had no side effects apart from a sore arm and they feel safer vs the virus, so are much more relaxed about the situation.

Don’t shoot the messenger.
 

“Frustrated and at a loss to understand why a considerable and growing body of evidence in favour of the cheap, off-patent medication is being not merely ignored but actively rejected, Dr Phillip M. Altman, a veteran of the drug-testing and appraisal industry, wrote to Dr Elliott to demand “revised recommendations for the use of ivermectin within 14 days”. That letter is reproduced …”

….in the Quadrant Online article I linked to recently.


If you take the time to peruse the, 53 to date, reader responses you will see some very compelling and salient comment. I highly recommend that you do, noting in particular the first letter from Dr R L Clancy AM.


Dr Clancy writes,

• Robert Clancy – 22nd August 2021
  
  Dr Altman, Excellent letter, and outstanding support from Dr Lawrie and her colleague. I assume you have a strategy when you do not get a response.
  
  There is no need for me to add to the evidence you summarise, other than to say that data confirming the clinical value of Ivermectin (IVM) appears on a daily basis. Yesterday the British Medical Journal asked me to review a paper showing rapid virus clearance following IVM. In normal times, given the many studies showing exactly that, the paper would be rejected on the basis that the information is not new. It will probably be rejected this time on political and ideological grounds.
  
  As one of the senior clinical immunologists in Australia, and the only one whose research has focussed on mucosal immunology and host-parasite relationships at mucosal surfaces in man (squarely relevant to Covid-19 infection), I find the current disinformation with respect to early treatment of Covid-19 infection beyond my understanding and without precedent in 50 years of practise. The two principles on which Australia has forged the highest levels of medical practice are neglected: the rule of science, and the rule of the doctor-patient relationship.
  
  The situation that defies logic and sense is that, on one hand, repositioned drugs with Pharma support (and patents) focussed on RNA polymerase such as Remdesivir that has failed repeated randomised controlled trials (RCT’s) yet continues to be used in our intensive care units at $4,000-$5,000 a course, while on the other, safe, cheap and effective repositioned drugs without patents that focus on changing the way cells process infectious agents, with numerous supporting RCT’s, are dismissed.
  
  The cynicism of Merck having publicly dismissed ivermectin the day before it announced a $US300 million government grant to develop an “early treatment”, starting its “rolling registration” around the world (our TGA last week) for son-of Remdesivir, the repositioned “Molnupirivir”, as a “breakthrough” oral treatment (recently sold to the US government before its trials are completed at $1,000 per course), is not lost on anyone.
  
  I wrote 8 months ago that the biology of Covid-19 infection dictates that while the parenteral genetic vaccines available to us will be important in short term Covid control, they will have little impact on infection, will be short in duration, and that antigen drift will create variants that will severely compromise efficacy. They will settle along influenza-vaccine lines. Moreover, genetic vaccines by stimulating uncontrolled synthesis of spike protein will cause highly concerning adverse events of a short and long-term nature that we can only surmise at this stage.
  
  All these outcomes have come about. My point was, and is, that ivermectin and like drugs are immediately needed, not to compete with vaccines, but to complement them: to reduce community spread; to treat early disease; to reduce progression to severe disease requiring admission to hospital and possible death; and to reduce the growing community repository of “long Covid” .
  
  Making ivermectin available across the Covid community now will shorten the current community crises where infection is out of control, will be synergistic with the vaccine programme facilitating movement through the planned stages, and greatly facilitate our reconnect with the world outside the bubble.
  
  The question almost every experienced clinician is asking in Australia is ‘we have a problem that we are doing nothing for, one that is threatening the very fibre of our nation, and vaccines are looking a little iffy. There is a drug available for early treatment of Covid-19 with more evidence supporting its safety and efficacy than there is for most drugs I use every day. Why are we not using this drug? What on earth has my patient got to lose?’ Where is the leadership?
  
  Dr Altman, I support your plea to those who can make decisions, based on evidence as summarised in your open letter. Lives are lost while positions are defended.
  
  Best wishes,
  Robert Clancy
  
  ‘A Total Lack of Therapeutic Perspective’

Errr, no. That is exactly the point. You are comparing apples with a comedy squirting flower. The government most certainly has done quite a few things about 'it' but that's by the by. But seriously, can I catch 'smoking' by walking into Bunnings?

I was in an office in the centre only yesterday preaching that very argument, they were young people so it's only just become available to them, but clearly hesitant all the same. I impressed upon them that it'll still take a few weeks for the vaccine to do its thing. Don't leave it till it's too late, look what's happening in Sydney, don't think that can't happen here.

Ok, so the ridiculous price of cigarettes, confronting pictures on packets, plain packaging, bans of smoking in almost all public areas and venues now as well as bans on smoking around kids etc etc is the gov doing nothing.... I was a smoker many years ago, I quit because it became too hard due to the restrictions and cost, as well as being dumb for my health. You also increase a number of premiums and some doctors may defer surgery on you if you smoke, how many forms do you fill out regarding health that refer to smoking status, why, because many things recognise it's bad for you.

That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

Help!! really we couldn't get them to come out and pick fruit. Unless you know your way around a heavy vehicle, preferably a multi combination or know how to track a line in a header, they might as well stay home out of the way, completely useless.

All I'm seeing at the moment is NSW in deep crisis by NOV and if they can't get a few thousand tiny bottles with a few nurses to use them out here, what chance do we have of getting a couple of thousand farmers into an ICU in the capital city.

Sounds to me like he just lost the election.

The biggest problem with the Feds doing that is it’s people like us, aircrew that are currently finding federal support payments very useful, that will suffer if the support is removed.

McGowan, Marshal, Palachook et al along with Morrison and co haven’t lost a cent, and they’ll continue to collect full freight throughout. They states will point the finger at the feds and say, “see, they’re taking away your assistance”… they’ll argue back and forth until the federal election while many more of us lose houses cars and all the rest, and neither Side will give a stuff how many of us get hurt.

Listening to some nurses from NSW, just now being interviewed on the ABC radio, it sounds like the entire NSW public health system is close to collapse.

If that is true, you can forget any state borders opening anytime soon.

Never fear. The states will take the hint from Josh from Accounts. That's how the power of the vertical fiscal imbalance works.

Always dangerous for amateurs like most of us to focus on the outlier academics who support our personal views.

The fact that the vast majority of specialists in the field favour a vaccine
and discount or dismiss the utility of Ivermectin should be enough for those of us who are, at best, interested observers.
There is plenty of articles opposing professor Clancy’s viewpoint, and his own university says he is speaking beyond his field of expertise.

This doesn’t mean he is wrong necessarily, but there’s no way the average person can make a judgement.

Here’s the US FDA’s take on it:


Robert Clancy is even more irrelevant than that, he retired 8 years ago, Newcastle University hasn’t funded his research for 12 years and he himself hasn’t commented on the numerous studies showing the worthlessness and dangerousness of Ivermectin since the start of the year.

If anyone wants to take livestock dewormer as treatment and forego a vaccine go ahead, but your fate will be similar to this:

A police captain who refused the vaccine and took the anti-parasitic ivermectin to combat COVID-19 dies from the virus

I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchoc...treatment.html


Yes, I realise the blurb says '...to treat covid-19', but it seems they're trying to spin a narrative by trying to frame it as 'not for human consumption'. Plenty of substances used for odd purposes are remade and repurposed as medicine for humans. Its a real shame that ivermectin has been proven not to be effective for Covid 19 because its cheap and easily made. We aren't getting out of this Covid mess without anti-virals in addition to vaccines, so I'd hope to see some come to the fore soon. Maybe PharmAust with their Monepantel (wait, that's sheep drench, tsk, tsk)... or whatever Pfizer is working on.

Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic. River blindness is a disease caused by parasites. Covid isn’t.

The reason the FDA is giving these warnings is people are going into livestock stores in the US and are panic buying Ivermectin meant for Horse or Cow deworming as a treatment or prophylactic for Covid.

Where do people get this idea that Ivermectin will help them?:

How the right’s ivermectin conspiracy theories led to people buying horse dewormer

And in case you think it’s an “only in America” thing.....:

Sky News Australia deletes dozens of videos promoting unproven Covid treatments

There was anecdotal evidence Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine had done some good in India. However if you look at the amount of different drugs they pumped into patients in the early stages it's very difficult to say which if any were doing anything, and how much was just early intervention in any case. Both were proven to have little effect, if any at all past mild onset relief. The kicker is that India completely about faced 2 months ago and removed both from the treatment list completely, and from the look of it, it hasn't made much difference since, so either they were doing nothing or doctors are continuing to use them against recommended procedure.

I think someone may have already posted that a key instigator of the use of Ivermectim in the USA died of covid not long ago. There's been a few of these key anti vaccine, covid is just a flu types get killed by covid recently in the US, a lot of folks there poking fun at them, so the FDA line is not out of line with that.

Spot on! The grubby corrupt Govt will do anything to bolster their tyranny! The ABC are the biggest pack of biased grubs out there!

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...me-destination

Looks like Morrison has given up on a timely, uniform opening of state borders. Polling on the issue must be looking dire as it’s the only thing the man responds to.

Hopefully Monepantel can prove more effective as a safe, low toxicity antiviral... We need something, especially if a vaccine resistant variant rears its ugly head!

Here's a good little local perspective of Covid running through Galveston County in Texas. Things to note are the numbers regarding deaths and ICU admissions overwhelmingly un-vaccinated people.

https://www.galvnews.com/news/free/a...30de56e04.html

Also to note one of the GOP members there who was strongly against vaccines and mask wearing died recently as well. Ironically his last tweet before catching Covid and then quickly ending up in hospital was anti mask/vaccine related.

Then there's Caleb Wallace, very vocal anti masker....

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...es-of-covid-19

I think the moral here is if you are an anti-vaxxer or anti-masker, don't die of covid, it will be really embarrassing for you....

It’s not a flu mate. And it’s not just an overworked employee that says the health system is at risk of collapse, it’s the AMA

The FDA is a government body, they are completely out of line mocking people no matter how foolish their cause of death.

Yes, so imagine the outcome if a community in deepest Africa getting a hold of information that imparts the opinion that the white man is giving them stuff meant only for cows and horses or is somehow unsafe... Also, if people are buying ivermectin from animal suppliers, treating people like they're stupid usually works really well to convince them to change their behaviour, doesn't it?

Honestly, there must be some freaking adolescents in charge of the FDAs social media.

I'm sure you think sky news, SMH, The Australian are all gold standards on unbiased media. Meanwhile not a peep from the Murdoch media about the NSW government's huge mess, but still running front page attacks on the Victorian government.

The AG has fired a shot across the bow to reluctant premiers regarding border closures. Once 70% and 80% targets are reached they may have no legal grounds to keep domestic borders closed. I’m sure CP is getting his case ready again for WA. Willl McGoose purposely slow And already slow roll out in WA and Anna stay away whom is in hiding from her CHO go even slower.

You've mis-read, they're not. The FDA is warning people not to take livestock medication, not mocking anyone. Other people on social media are mocking those who are buying drugs from farm suppliers, then dying because they refuse to trust the doctors. There is a never-ending stream of social media posts following a very similar pattern, it goes roughly like this:

- posting memes about how vaccine mandates are bad and covid is a lefty hoax or only affects the elderly and infirm, but they are young and healthy so they can choose their own risks, or how if you have your vaccine why should you care if they have theirs or calling people who get vaccinated sheep who submit to government control, or that they would rather get covid than submit to government tyranny.

- explaining how they've got covid, but it's only minor and they'll be back out soon.

- pleading for prayers before they go on a ventilator.

- dead. Usually with a GoFundMe to cover funeral expenses or to help look after the children they've left behind. Sometimes they're in their 30s, sometimes 40s, they all assumed that it would be someone else that died.

People who get affected by covid, deserve treatment, help and sympathy. People who have spent months and months explaining how hospitals and doctors are all in it for the money, and mocking and undermining public health measures to prevent the spread of disease, loudly and publicly calling those people who take vaccines sheep and cowards, before pleading for prayers in a hospital bed then dying of a disease they refused to protect themself against, when it keeps happening over and over and over again...No sympathy. And I understand why people are mocking them. I feel bad for their children growing up without a parent, but maybe those children will learn that even if you think covid is a lefty hoax, covid is a virus that doesn't care about your political leanings.

How about this for utter hypocrisy by the Qld. Premier.

The story below is an excerpt from the ABC news web site and it appears that again there are different rules for sports people and VIP's. and they are coming from a hot spot in Sydney

"The play in question is the NRL jetting in about 100 league officials, players' wives, girlfriends and children into Brisbane from the COVID-19 hotspot of Sydney. "

The Qld. Govt has sanctioned this little visit.

How can our citizens be told to take things seriously and how important it is to maintain social distancing etc. and that these rules are vital if we are to beat this Pandemic when things like this happen. The Premier even states that she is very concerned about " border hopping " that puts Queenslanders at risk!!! and yet this happens.

It really makes a mockery out of the whole Covid thing.

It just goes to show where our Qld Premiers priorities are and it's not for upholding the rules that the rest of us have to obey!!!!

Disgraceful.

It is a very bad look for both QLD and WA allowing sports events with interstate teams and support staff to go ahead when there is so much issue around travel even for compassionate grounds.

The only mitigating factor is those sports are footing the bill for quarantine and such. If they are not and the state govs are also funding them to play in those states then the electorate should take them to task. I'm not a resident of either state so have no say in their politics, it's up to the locals to decide if that's appropriate for them.

Are you surprised? just look at WA same thing with the AFL leaps and bounds for a sporting event, pushed to the back of the que if you're an Aussie trying to return home or worse a resident wanting to leave and return to NSW for urgent funeral, which in my opinion would trump any celebrity or sporting code that needs to be played.
Netflix canceled a major production that was to be filmed in Australia, the difficult border logistics, constant juggling of border arrangements along with constantly changing worker permits. A Russel Crowe production was shut down yesterday also due to a "positive"case. one thing Hollywood hates is loosing money and thats what is happening now when they come to Australia. I am happy that this is happening as Australia's attraction has waned in recent months due to a low rate of vaccination, the arrival of the more infectious COVID-19 delta variant and a sprawl of localized logistical complications. Pull your finger out Premiers.

Nothing new, a lot of filming of series in the US was put on hold and some still on hold due to covid concerns, hence why I've caught up with most of my netflix streams. There was a number of shoots moved to Australia because it was considered safe, the idiot brigade have ensured that's probably no more.

I would have thought it manifestly self-evident. If the Commonwealth had a power beyond those listed in s 51 to ensure that the states complied, they would exercise that power and you would see compliance. That's not happening. Draw your own conclusions.

Nope. Didn’t misread at all. Saying ‘you are not a horse, you are not a cow’ in a headline is condescending and an attempt at mocking those who seek what they believe is alternative treatment. That is NOT a government body’s role, and I believe Would generally have the opposite effect on many, driving them further away.

Most of the people who the FDA are trying to speak with those posts wouldn’t read, or believe that information anyhow so it seems it could be more of an attempt to galvanize opinion against those types and stop more people joining them if anything.

You can’t force needles in the arms of people to get vaccinated, many of the people seeking ivermectin probably aren’t the ones who think Covid is a hoax anyway as they’re actually seeking something for it. An honest evidence backed campaign that uses respect and repetition, along with practical encouragement such as what qantas is attempting will be most likely to change their minds.

Taking another countries problems out of context is why you are struggling with it's meaning. A few lost individuals have 'heard' Ivermectin can cure Covid and can't get prescribed it as they don't have worms, instead they turn to black market sales of horse and cow versions of the drug. Which are much larger doses and contain other ingredients not suitable for human consumption, they are then getting sick or dying because of this. The FDA is not mocking them in that statement, it is not mocking the dead or dying, it is making a clear statement that those drugs are not for humans, especially if you read the material on the site. I'm pretty sure the message is working in the US now, a few of the 'anti' protagonists have died from covid scarring the others into vaccination. As I said earlier the FDA statement is pretty much in line with sentiment and media coverage of the issue.

Sorry, but it absolutely is mocking them. Most people won’t read beyond the headline. It is condescending. I don’t know you struggle with that (see what you did there?). It’s a ‘deplorables’ type moment. You won’t win over people speaking to them like that.

With that comment you just lost your credibility and obviously trying to make this political, poorly.

It's also not a headline, it's a tweet. Twitter is quite clearly aimed at those already listening to the FDA, not trying to win over crackpots who won't listen anyway. Again you are taking something out of context and getting offended by it, showing some personal investment in the anti idea.

If you want respect from mainstream society and not be treated like a joke, don't act like one in the first place. Govs don't reason with extremists, they just deal with them by ignoring them, mocking them or education programs, arguing with someone that's nuts never works. If you think someone is going to apply reasonable conversation when the opposition starts from an irrational point of view, well you might be kidding yourself. They get air time from media as they attract attention with their far out views, but even the media showing them often mocks them to the face with the tone of interview.

Oh please. That comparison is absolutely valid. Hillary only needed a small percentage of those ‘deplorable s’ and things would have been very different. You don’t need all the anti vax extremists, that’s not realistic. You just want as many as you can, but you aren’t getting most of them past the headline of it starts out by giving them $h&t. Besides, The political comparison was already made above. It’s no secret that ivermectin is a favorite topic among many on the right.

I’ve implied repeatedly you’re going to struggle to get those people to change their minds, but if you want to win any of them over, use Honey, not vinegar.

It is not the government’s place to use people’s taxes mock any of their citizens.

Look up the Herman Cain Award if you want to see proper mockery of the dead.
This is normal behaviour in the US for this type of thing, the FDA comment is not even close to mocking the dead.

Indeed. Both completely inappropriate IMO…

Regardless, the tweet is one of the highest rated tweets made by the FDA recently with over 110,000 likes and 70,000 retweets, 50% higher than their news that Pfizer was approved in the US. Is the wit appropriate? well that's personal. Did it get the message circulating? a resounding yes in FDA terms, therefore was it successful use of FDA resources, most definitely. Will a few people feel stupid and alienated, yes they will. Will a lot stay away from taking horse drugs to treat covid, most certainly yes. So did tax payers get bang for their buck, most certainly yes as the message was spread quickly and effectively.