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ScepticalOptomist 16th Jul 2021 11:37


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 11079639)
Well, 2 out of those 3 sound like small businesses. Maybe, just maybe, they were quite happy with the first lockdown to “flatten the curve” because “we were all in this together” and watched their savings deplete while their friends who could work from home were minimally affected. Now they’re probably at the end of their tether, both emotionally and financially, and they figure they might as well try and make some money while they can.

There are only so many times you can ask the same sector of society to pay for the pandemic before they tell you to shove it.

Exactly. Human nature is to overcome and survive - not be locked away…

Green.Dot 16th Jul 2021 19:16


Originally Posted by Turnleft080 (Post 11079665)
Weather we are 50/60/70/80% vaccinated it's still going to go ballistic and it must in order for it to go.

A bit like a PROB40 on a TAF yeah?
:}

aviation_enthus 16th Jul 2021 19:36


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11079494)

If a nationally consistent and effective response to a pandemic is not squarely within the Commonwealth’s executive power, I’ll cartwheel nude down Northbourne Avenue.

Some elements can be nationally consistent and within the Commonwealth’s executive power…
- quarantine arrangements
​​​​​​- border restrictions
​​​​​​- funding allocations for various extra health measures (Eg purchase of vaccines)

Actually paying medical staff to run health departments is NOT, hence its subject to the whims of various Premiers.

The Commonwealth has already differed and f****d around with their responsibilities, why do you think a “national approach” would make us better off?!

Plus I think some of the response to a pandemic SHOULD be more local. Australia is a massive country, restrictions in Perth wouldn’t even be relevant to Broome, let alone the East Coast. Within QLD is hard enough with 2000 km between Brisbane and Cairns.

To be honest, why can’t we have some states trying things slightly differently? I think it’s actually a strength having this flexibility within our system of government. How else would we find out if different measures are better or worse in the Australian context?

For all the drama in the USA, they had 50 states doing their own thing with regards to local lockdowns, masks, restrictions, etc. The information that comes out of various reviews over the next 6-12 months will be fascinating.



Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11079494)
It’s just that Scotty wants to be able to spread the blame.

Yes!
But…
It also requires the Premiers to do their jobs, in the areas allocated to them (like the health response!) arguably most have been struggling with that too…

Lead Balloon 16th Jul 2021 21:18


Originally Posted by MickG0105 (Post 11079537)
The top search response is for the Australian Parliament House's Parliamentary Paper No 63 - Commonwealth Executive Power and Accountability Following Williams (No 2) (where Williams (No 2) is Williams v Commonwealth (No. 2) (2014) 252 CLR 416, as opposed to Williams v Commonwealth (2012) 248 CLR 156 (Williams (No. 1)).

Apart from the problem that "nationhood power" is essentially a legal construct that sits outside of the Constitution, there's prior High Court precedent, specifically Williams (Nos 1 and 2), that has found that the concept of a "nationhood power" does not trump the the division of legislative responsibilities spelled out in S.51. In the cases where the High Court has found that the "nationhood power" provides a legitimate basis for the Commonwealth exercising a power not otherwise articulated it has been largely related to S.61 - for example, Davis v Commonwealth (1988) 166 CLR 97 regards the Commonwealth's power to establish the Australian Bicentennial Authority.

Then there's the matter of what exactly is "nationhood power"? The High Court has found that it is an implied executive power derived, in part, from Australia’s national status. And the only reason that the concept of "nationhood power" gets a run is that when the Constitution Act was passed in 1901, there were certain external national powers that Australia could not at that time exercise. For example, at the time Australia could not declare war or enter treaties. It was only after the retreat of the Crown through things like the Imperial Conferences of 1926 and 1930, the passage of the Statute of Westminster and the corresponding Australian legislation, the Statute of Westminster (Adoption) Act, and finally the Australia Acts, that Australia had the opportunity to fully exercise external powers.

With regards to what exactly falls under "nationhood power", the High Court routinely relies on a definition provided by Justice Mason in Victoria v Commonwealth and Hayden (the AAP Case) (1975) 134 CLR 338; specifically he describd it as ‘a capacity to engage in enterprises and activities peculiarly adapted to the government of a nation and which cannot otherwise be carried on for the benefit of the nation'. It's often referred to as 'peculiarly adapted' test although the 'which cannot otherwise be carried on' element is also important.

On the basis that a determination on how best to manage health matters had been made at the outset of federation, there's an argument that the 'peculiarly adapted' test was done and dusted 120 years ago - the determination was that the Commonwealth was not 'peculiarly adapted' to manage the nation's health, that would be an activity that would be 'otherwise be carried on for the benefit of the nation' by the states. The fact that that arrangement was tested by a pandemic less than two decades later could be seen as an argument in its favour.

Further, without having to invoke "nationhood power" to support a Federal power grab, there are a range of mechanisms to provide for a nationally coordinated and effective response to national health emergencies, things like the Australian Health Ministers’ Advisory Council, the Australian Health Protection Principal Committee, the Advisory Committee on Vaccines and the like.


That'd be a matter for the High Court - just in case, you would probably want a summer hearing on the matter.

The High Court ultimately decides these things? Who knew?

It’s as nearly as startling a revelation as viruses being virulent.

I’m not sure how a Schools Chaplaincy Programme has quite the national significance as an existential threat like a pandemic. But I suppose it depends on one’s religious views. Perhaps Chaplains can pray our way out of the pandemic.

Any second year law student analysis of the vertical fiscal imbalance and section 96 of the Constitution, and the implications for the Commonwealth’s powers?

Aviation enthus: 18 months in, and we don’t have a nationally-consistent definition and understanding of what an essential worker is. Brilliant. And it’s not a ‘one or the other’ (Federal or State) doing ‘everything’ argument. It’s about who should be in charge and why.

mattyj 16th Jul 2021 21:23


Please do yourself a favour and read the Australian Constitution.
..don’t do that! If you ever wanted to stand for public office that would make you ineligible

Turnleft080 16th Jul 2021 21:32


Originally Posted by Green.Dot (Post 11079861)
A bit like a PROB40 on a TAF yeah?
:}

I will wether that.
Thanks Mr Dot.

PROB40 TEMPO 1623/1703 SEV TURB NSW/VIC REGION FROM ASSOCIATED POLITICAL TROUGH

Green.Dot 16th Jul 2021 21:48


Originally Posted by Turnleft080 (Post 11079911)
I will wether that.
Thanks Mr Dot.

PROB40 TEMPO 1623/1703 SEV TURB NSW/VIC REGION FROM ASSOCIATED POLITICAL TROUGH

Ha ha, good one. If only COVID was a TEMPO

SHVC 16th Jul 2021 23:02

Ouch, 19 new cases for Vic seems to be running away already. NSW predicted to have 111 today. Liberal Vs Labor battle techniques, who will win.

Foxxster 16th Jul 2021 23:13


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11079942)
Ouch, 19 new cases for Vic seems to be running away already. NSW predicted to have 111 today. Liberal Vs Labor battle techniques, who will win.

well given that number for NSW , expected as it is, we will definitely see harsher measures announced this morning. Which I suspect will look VERY much like the current Victorian ones….

SHVC 16th Jul 2021 23:20

Fox, I bloody hope so. I’m a Glady fan but SY ppl are not doing the right thing and she is worried about upsetting them. Time to close everything down tonight, if she does we could come out of this by early September if she doesn’t well this will dribble on well into 2022 and NSW being locked out of rest of the country.

Liklik balus 16th Jul 2021 23:21

Buckle up people!!
The Victorian lockdown will be extended AT LEAST until next weekend, maybe longer......and so I do advise. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!

Foxxster 16th Jul 2021 23:24


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11079945)
Fox, I bloody hope so. I’m a Glady fan but SY ppl are not doing the right thing and she is worried about upsetting them. Time to close everything down tonight, if she does we could come out of this by early September if she doesn’t well this will dribble on well into 2022 and NSW being locked out of rest of the country.

you can put your house on it, assuming you still have it… we will be in FULL, proper lockdown this time tomorrow. Will be announced this morning… major embarrassment to Gladys. And the nsw health experts. Again. Remember why we are in this cluster …. in the first place.

MickG0105 16th Jul 2021 23:30


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11079904)
The High Court ultimately decides these things? Who knew?

It’s as nearly as startling a revelation as viruses being virulent.

Yes, I know. I have this propensity to state facts, even going so far as stating what might be self-evident to some ... as terrible as it is I've got to say that I still find it preferable to the alternatives.


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11079904)
Any second year law student analysis of the vertical fiscal imbalance and section 96 of the Constitution, and the implications for the Commonwealth’s powers?

Apologies but I don't know any second year law students.


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11079904)
I’m not sure how a Schools Chaplaincy Programme has quite the national significance as an existential threat like a pandemic. But I suppose it depends on one’s religious views. Perhaps Chaplains can pray our way out of the pandemic.

If you do manage to find a second year law student get them to explain the doctrine of precedent and legal principles. You might also consider what former Chief Justice Spigelman noted on the topic of trying to do end runs on the Constitution:

It is not permissible to approach the Constitution on the basis that whatever is in the institutional interests of the Commonwealth must be the law.

SOPS 16th Jul 2021 23:40


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11079948)
you can put your house on it, assuming you still have it… we will be in FULL, proper lockdown this time tomorrow. Will be announced this morning… major embarrassment to Gladys. And the nsw health experts. Again. Remember why we are in this cluster …. in the first place.


I really hope Gladys wakes up today.

PoppaJo 16th Jul 2021 23:59

Victoria will have problems with leakage for as long as this is alive in Sydney. It will be a question of how many days post this short lockdown, they go before the next leak arrives. Sydney are stuck with this active in the community for at least August and into September. How do we protect Victoria for those two months?.

Would be great if we could invest in rapid testing. If the FedEx crew had been, the chances of all this going on would have been greatly reduced. All foreign based aircrew should be at a minimum on arrival and exit. They are only here for 24/48 hrs.

Brisbane to Cairns set to be the number one route again

ScepticalOptomist 17th Jul 2021 00:25

Or we could actually stop panicking about “cases” and accept that the horse has bolted.

The elderly are mostly protected now, and out of all the “young” infected, none have died. A zero CFR.

Time to get a grip and stop being so scared by the scary media reporting.

-41 17th Jul 2021 00:40


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 11079952)
Victoria will have problems with leakage for as long as this is alive in Sydney. It will be a question of how many days post this short lockdown, they go before the next leak arrives. Sydney are stuck with this active in the community for at least August and into September. How do we protect Victoria for those two months?.

Would be great if we could invest in rapid testing. If the FedEx crew had been, the chances of all this going on would have been greatly reduced. All foreign based aircrew should be at a minimum on arrival and exit. They are only here for 24/48 hrs.

Brisbane to Cairns set to be the number one route again

I stopped following the NSW debacle, is there any credible evidence detailing the FedEx crew tested positive in AUSTRALIA other than what been implied by the political press release. I did read a article where an Independent journalist was unable to attain any proof from the NSW government Or FedEx to back up this claim.

The horse has bolted through the gate, however the timeline is interesting as I would have expected international crew to be CV tested on arrival. My personal experience has been they take less than 12 hours for a text message response from the lab following the test at the domestic terminal. Surely a international crew would have then been advised via public health officials to isolate or been quarantined to prevent transmission by the crew.

How long would a freight crew layover be ? Why did the test results take longer than the layover in this case, I get mine prior to sign on for the next day.

.

Green.Dot 17th Jul 2021 01:04


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11079942)
NSW predicted to have 111 today.

you have a reliable insider! Rarely seen on this site!

Foxxster 17th Jul 2021 01:10

NSW ..111 new cases, 29 in community. Premiers press conference..

further actions from today..

until July 30, people in western Sydney 3 local govt areas have to stay …cannot leave for work or any other reason unless health or emergency workers. Liverpool, Bankstown and one other..

from midnight, only CRITICAL retail to remain open… they have a list of what is critical on website.

no car pooling allowed

until July 30, NO CONSTRUCTION WORK, at all across Sydney. Including large construction ie commercial sites. Plus residential. Except emergency repairs.

of course July 30 will be a moveable date…

Torukmacto 17th Jul 2021 01:14

At some stage ( hopefully soon ) numbers won’t be released . It’s here to stay . Get on with it should be the line from Goverment.

Foxxster 17th Jul 2021 01:18


Originally Posted by Torukmacto (Post 11079969)
At some stage ( hopefully soon ) numbers won’t be released . It’s here to stay . Get on with it should be the line from Goverment.


won’t be until December at the earliest. We need to get vaccinated rate right up to at least around 60%+ probably more like 70%. I would think around feb or March next year..

gladys has mentioned 80% which is ridiculous. That would take us until this time next year as I suspect rates will start to flatten right off once we get around the 65% to 70% mark.

SOPS 17th Jul 2021 01:26


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11079966)
NSW ..111 new cases, 29 in community. Premiers press conference..

further actions from today..

until July 30, people in western Sydney 3 local govt areas have to stay …cannot leave for work or any other reason unless health or emergency workers. Liverpool, Bankstown and one other..

from midnight, only CRITICAL retail to remain open… they have a list of what is critical on website.

no car pooling allowed

until July 30, NO CONSTRUCTION WORK, at all across Sydney. Including large construction ie commercial sites. Plus residential. Except emergency repairs.

of course July 30 will be a moveable date…


That must have hurt Gladys to say that. I wonder if people will obey.

Foxxster 17th Jul 2021 01:27


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11079972)
That must have hurt Gladys to say that. I wonder if people will obey.


yep, just waiting for a gloating response from chairman Dan. He won’t be able to resist. Maybe the chook will chime in as well although she will probably keep quiet as she is off to Japan is she not.

as for people obeying. Well hmmm. They have had quite a police presence out west recently. Western Sydney that is.

Turnleft080 17th Jul 2021 01:35


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11079970)
won’t be until December at the earliest. We need to get vaccinated rate right up to at least around 60%+ probably more like 70%. I would think around feb or March next year..

gladys has mentioned 80% which is ridiculous. That would take us until this time next year as I suspect rates will start to flatten right off once we get around the 70% mark.

70%. We have that already in the over 70 population. If you mentioned that 12 months ago, oh yes, that would warrant all borders to open.
You take that any day. Though not today because the goal posts change daily on the rhetoric of suppression forget bending the curve.

PoppaJo 17th Jul 2021 01:44

Popcorn and Sky News tonight lol.

SHVC 17th Jul 2021 02:03

Have the Alpha and Beta strains fizzled out or attained herd immunity? what I'm trying to ask, is this virus like an annual influenza that mutates except C-19 mutates quicker?

blubak 17th Jul 2021 02:20


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11079974)
yep, just waiting for a gloating response from chairman Dan. He won’t be able to resist. Maybe the chook will chime in as well although she will probably keep quiet as she is off to Japan is she not.

as for people obeying. Well hmmm. They have had quite a police presence out west recently. Western Sydney that is.

Had a listen to nsw presser & now the vic 1.
To be honest i still think Gladys is trying to be nice & taking a soft approach,the facts & answers coming from the vic officials are very matter of fact & they definitely seem to be right up with whats happening.
There is no doubt that the average person must do the right thing & hopefully that happens.
It was mentioned that somebody did a runner at melb airport on wed night,that somebody is now $5k out of pocket!

Max Tow 17th Jul 2021 02:42


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11079970)
won’t be until December at the earliest. We need to get vaccinated rate right up to at least around 60%+ probably more like 70%. I would think around feb or March next year..

gladys has mentioned 80% which is ridiculous. That would take us until this time next year as I suspect rates will start to flatten right off once we get around the 65% to 70% mark.

Yes, but the problem is that there is no road-map from our squabbling leaders showing what happens when we reach a stage where all who wish to be vaccinated have been offered the jabs. That will probably get stuck at around the 60-70% seen in other countries, given the hold-outs and the thoroughly confused messages. When this happens, hopefully by year end, I suspect the majority of the population will have had enough of the endless "whack-a-mole" of lockdowns, however justifiable these were in the pre-vax times.

Currently the push to get vaccinated is all "stick" (getting or spreading the virus is a bad thing) and no "carrot" (when you and x% of us are vaccinated, you'll be able to do things that the unvaccinated can't). Hence we have the ridiculous Catch-22 of airlines being grounded because people are saying that there's no point in getting vaccinated because they still won't be able to travel.

What I'd like to see is for the government to set a target date by which it expects all to have been offered vaccination, after which we will for a while move on to a two-tier level of activity, much as we do with smokers and non-smokers. Sure, there are those few who cannot be vaccinated for genuine health reasons, but as with other diseases, their best defence is to be surrounded by as many as possible who have been protected. For those able but unwilling, fair enough, you are free to make your own decisions, but life for the rest of us will at some stage just have to move on. The average annual death toll in Oz from flu is reckoned to be around 2k pre-covid, so I guess that sets a benchmark for what will be acceptable.

As one with perhaps two or three decades left on this earth, I'm pretty near done with holding the pause button.

Green.Dot 17th Jul 2021 02:57

This isn’t rocket science. End of 2021 everybody who is vaccinated gets a 2k rebate. Everybody who hasn’t pays a 2k levy. People that haven’t had the pain of extended lockdown, still working and think their state is “safe” should be able to easily afford it.

Foxxster 17th Jul 2021 04:02

First case of WuHu flu in the Olympics village. And the games haven’t even started yet. What a fecking sick joke this farce is going ahead.

DirectAnywhere 17th Jul 2021 05:47


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 11079982)
Had a listen to nsw presser & now the vic 1.
To be honest i still think Gladys is trying to be nice & taking a soft approach,the facts & answers coming from the vic officials are very matter of fact & they definitely seem to be right up with whats happening.

To be fair, the Vic staff have had much more practice at delivering bad news, but there is no doubt their comms are far stronger than NSW at the moment.

This morning's press conferences were a stark contrast. Removing the NSW premier and VIC minister from consideration, while I have no doubt Kerry Chant is very capable, her public speaking is simply poor. She stumbles over words and can't structure a phrase on the fly to clearly communicate her point to the level that some of what she says is incomprehensible.

Jeroen Weimar on the other hand is clear, succinct and well across his brief. He doesn't waffle, provides straight answers to straight questions and isn't afraid to say if he doesn't know. He exudes confidence and control.

jrfsp 17th Jul 2021 05:49

What the hell is wrong with people:

Breaking: Police have charged three removalists who allegedly knew they had COVID-19 but still travelled from Sydney to the state’s Central West.

Just after 2:30pm yesterday, officers spoke to four men in Molong, about 300km from Sydney, after receiving information they had travelled from West Hoxton, in the Liverpool local government area (LGA).

These men are not the removalists that travelled from NSW to Victoria, sparking an outbreak there.


SOPS 17th Jul 2021 06:07


Originally Posted by jrfsp (Post 11080009)

What the hell is wrong with people:

Breaking: Police have charged three removalists who allegedly knew they had COVID-19 but still travelled from Sydney to the state’s Central West.

Just after 2:30pm yesterday, officers spoke to four men in Molong, about 300km from Sydney, after receiving information they had travelled from West Hoxton, in the Liverpool local government area (LGA).

These men are not the removalists that travelled from NSW to Victoria, sparking an outbreak there.

I am starting to think the problem lies in the fact there is a group of people who dont think any of this alpplies to them.

Bend alot 17th Jul 2021 06:28

Is it clear?

Can we work at Bankstown Airport on Monday?

blubak 17th Jul 2021 08:16


Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere (Post 11080008)
To be fair, the Vic staff have had much more practice at delivering bad news, but there is no doubt their comms are far stronger than NSW at the moment.

This morning's press conferences were a stark contrast. Removing the NSW premier and VIC minister from consideration, while I have no doubt Kerry Chant is very capable, her public speaking is simply poor. She stumbles over words and can't structure a phrase on the fly to clearly communicate her point to the level that some of what she says is incomprehensible.

Jeroen Weimar on the other hand is clear, succinct and well across his brief. He doesn't waffle, provides straight answers to straight questions and isn't afraid to say if he doesn't know. He exudes confidence and control.

Yes,the vic officials are better versed at delivering bad news,cant argue with that.
And your comparison between Kerry Chant & Weimar is pretty spot on,her stumbling & hesitation makes listening very hard & from then on in her message is basically lost.
Not an easy job im sure but if she wants people to take notice i think she needs to improve or appoint somebody else to speak.

blubak 17th Jul 2021 08:22


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11080017)
I am starting to think the problem lies in the fact there is a group of people who dont think any of this alpplies to them.

I am sure that is the case,it seems there is always somebody who thinks its all a joke or the rules arent for them & they know best.
Of course if they get fined or questioned,they then claim victimisation & of course there are lots that listen.

mattyj 17th Jul 2021 09:06

The vaccines only stop you from getting hospital level disease..it’s doing zero to stop the positive cases and zero to stop transmission..see Israel, UK, California etc..get vaccinated if you like..it’s not going to end the pandemic

Max Tow 17th Jul 2021 09:16


Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 11080089)
The vaccines only stop you from getting hospital level disease..it’s doing zero to stop the positive cases and zero to stop transmission..see Israel, UK, California etc..get vaccinated if you like..it’s not going to end the pandemic


Thanks for that. Your reported combination of effects (reduction in level of severity for those vaccinated) & non-effects (but having a vaccinated majority will not reduce the rate of transmission with severe consequences to the non-vaccinated) is one of the best arguments I've heard for getting off the fence....

If there are few hospitalisations, the number of positive cases will become less newsworthy - who counts flu & cold cases these days?

mattyj 17th Jul 2021 09:23

The media..it’s their new thing

jrfsp 17th Jul 2021 10:05

So while lots of aussies cannot get home - we allow trolls like this sky news favourite into the country (how on earth were they granted entry) - deliberately trying to break the HQ rules

https://www.smh.com.au/national/katie-hopkins-admits-to-breaking-hotel-quarantine-rules-in-sydney-20210717-p58al3.html

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/katie-hopkins-trolls-sydneys-lockdown-from-hotel-quarantine/news-story/5b5d8398e3255a8407d848eb1f2a44cb


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