Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
(Post 10521322)
People seem transfixed on the “pay rise” aspect only and how it’s risky in a softening economy. Anything being asked for in this latest round of EBAs is merely a correction (not a pay rise) to the stagnated wage growth forced upon pilots during the last decade or so. Airlines have skimmed the cream off that wage stagnation for a very long time. Talk of company failures and the end of days in aviation is old playbook smoke and mirrors, and pretty boring. The playbook involves using contractors and outsourcing. Then of course drag out "negotiation" until the economic cycle rolls over and then begin in earnest the scare campaign. That the EBA outcomes are held at CPI ( a government derived measure that lacks any real reference to cost of living) real wages (purchasing power) has declined in most western economies over the last decades (plural) Wash, rinse and repeat. |
The smart money is that Tiger will close, and be absorbed into Virgin, which at last glance, was north of $1.6B loss over the last 6 years. If TT can maintain a positive EBITDA - then it isn't a burden on VA's balance sheet, and provides the competitive protection from another start-up coming in and having a go aka Lion Air, Air Asia etc. |
I think QF allows tiger and virgin to scrape by. Imagine if they had a cashed up strong competitor come in? As for JQ. If the EBA is any less than Tiger, there would be a large and significant uproar. The only way this will get over the line is if they play dirty. IE offer deals to the SOs and FOs or Captains and SOs etc to get the required 50.1% yes. Whatever the outcome, it’s going to be a pissed off pilot workforce. There ain’t no bigger piece of the pie anymore. It’s just squabbling over who gets the most crumbs. |
Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10520530)
The heliograph flashing from Village Virgin is that there is to be an announcement by COB Friday regarding the current status and future of Tiger.
The smart money is that Tiger will close, and be absorbed into Virgin, which at last glance, was north of $1.6B loss over the last 6 years. One opines that Virgin will be between nowhere and nowhere as it cannot compete with Qantas group's premium (sic) service, and cannot compete with Qantas group's low cost carrier services. My tray table is stowed; my reclining seat/bed is now in the takeoff and landing position; and, am awaiting the onset of severe turbulence which is forecast. Perhaps it is just a rumour, and will amount to nought. Perhaps. Looks like that Heliograph is signaling something else. Almost COB Friday......nothings happened. |
Qantas 2011
The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced |
Could I be correct in assuming there is minimal crew engagement regarding the uniforms with the note attached at sign on this afternoon?
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You’ll have to explain Ragnor |
Originally Posted by Ragnor
(Post 10529454)
Could I be correct in assuming there is minimal crew engagement regarding the uniforms with the note attached at sign on this afternoon?
|
Hats for everyone and new polo shirts with our embroided names. Should make up appear more hip and fun ;-) |
It’ll end up being the black cabin crew uniform with orange bars and an orange jacket :) Kind of like the qantas one being cabin crew shirts and jackets/pants etc with a different tie and bars/wings. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10529585)
every pilot I’ve spoken to has done the survey. No point whining about the new uniform if you didn’t have your say when given the chance Kind of like the qantas one being cabin crew shirts and jackets/pants etc with a different tie and bars/wings. Surveys don't matter. Nodding heads will feign their interest as long as it takes to sign a supply contract. That contract will align supply chains with cabin crew and ground crew to minimise unit cost. Pretending to care is the modern corporate. The new uniform a mix of toxicity and impracticality, with plenty of man-made chemical compounds floating around. Much cheaper than cotton and wool. https://www.inquisitr.com/4346446/am...oisoning-them/ |
Any delays beyond 15 mins is recorded as an OTP delay. I guess when they kick even the nicest of dogs enough, they will bite so the saying goes. Shame to be hearing that the good will appears to have run out with the line drivers. |
Fact of the matter is that the timing is terrible, expect a big profit announcement followed closely by all the messaging around softening demand, slowing global growth etc. There will be no massive gains in this contract, I base this on EVERY negotiation so far where the pilot group has been out manoeuvred by management at every step, why is it going to be any different this time around? I say this to everyone I fly with to try and get a bit of spark lit up for a scrap but generally most just go ‘yep that’s what I think too’. |
HI guys, not sure if this is the correct thread or not but regarding all of the contract concerns I am curious to know what the majority union for Jetstar Australia is. Thanks for your troubles. |
AFAP have the majority |
...this has gone quiet?
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Seems like it.
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Is there any argument for why JQ should pay less than Tiger? |
Because Tiger seems content to run it’s business at a loss to ensure market share and ALL of it’s costs are not the true market rate / value that can be sustained long term. |
Because Tiger seems content to run it’s business at a loss to ensure market share and ALL of it’s costs are not the true market rate / value that can be sustained long term. |
Absolutely no argument from me, the difference being the Qantas Group is making money.......... where as the Virgin group! And by the way I don't think that pilot costs are the make and break of a profit but I would think QF management would argue that ALL virgin costs are too high and Qantas can't or won't match them. I think it only becomes the 'market rate' when the business is viable or QF is forced to raise Jetstars terms and conditions to retain pilots as they are all leaving for Virgin.
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Originally Posted by Flava Saver
(Post 10606213)
...this has gone quiet?
|
The AFAP today applied to the FWC for a ballet in regards to IA this December. |
Jetstar could face Christmas disruptions over pilot disputeBudget airline Jetstar could face disruptions over the busy Christmas period after pay negotiations with its pilots broke down. The Australian Federation of Air Pilots said on Wednesday it had applied to the Fair Work Commission to hold a vote among Jetstar pilots on taking protected industrial action. The proposed actions range from general work-to-rule (pilots not working outside of their rostered hours) to work stoppages of up to 24 hours, AFAP said. Jetstar is able to object to some forms of action with Fair Work today, before pilots vote on them. Jetstar and the union are at loggerheads over pay, with the airline saying it has proposed a 3 per cent annual wage rise but that the union wants a deal that would increase "pilot costs" by 15 per cent. AFAP executive director Simon Lutton said the union was taking the step because its members were disappointed negotiations with Jetstar over a new enterprise agreement had stalled. “As negotiating with the company in good faith has got them nowhere, they have been left with no choice," Mr Lutton said. A Jetstar spokeswoman said it had been in constructive discussions about the new wage deal since January and remained committed to reaching an agreement, "but not at any cost". "There are many complex areas to discuss and working through the AFAP’s numerous claims and their many modifications takes time," she said. Mr Lutton said AFAP members, who make up the majority of Jetstar's pilots, were unhappy with salary and conditions, and concerned about how the airline's rostering practices affected pilot fatigue. Jetstar said captains on its fleet of narrow body jets earned $304,576 on average and first officers earned $184,260 last year, including superannuation and allowances. On larger aircraft which fly international routes, that went up to $323,274 and $234,516. The wage dispute comes at a time when Jetstar and its owner Qantas are coming under pressure from falling demand, particularly among holidaymakers, who are choosing not to travel amid softening economic conditions. Jetstar's unit revenue - an industry figure used to measure passenger traffic - fell 2.6 per cent in the first quarter of the year. More to come |
Originally Posted by wheels_down
(Post 10617395)
The AFAP today applied to the FWC for a ballet in regards to IA this December. |
Originally Posted by Bug Smasher Smasher
(Post 10617416)
Negotiations by interpretive dance? |
Ah, a December to Remember! |
What an unwelcome development.
Resplendent in wedded bliss, the region's most highly remunerated airline executive nearly choked on a sausage, at breakfast time. Options on the table include:
What to do, what to do. |
Those A321s would certainly come in handy at mainline. Just saying. |
Here is an idea. Just pay the damn market rates. A chart at one end (far) has Qantas, Virgin, Tiger. At the other end is Air NZ, Jetstar NZ, Jetconnect and Virgin Kiwi. Jetstar sit in the middle with the likes of regional jet operators. Why are they not down the far end? |
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
(Post 10617438)
Those A321s would certainly come in handy at mainline. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10617507)
we’re not stupid enough to believe that the group allocates aircraft solely based on pilot wages, unlike the QF guys did when agreeing to their 787 deal |
And you guys accepted ****house conditions all those years ago, you can’t rapidly change it your stuck with **** for the foreseeable future, that’s the way it works. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10617507)
we’re not stupid enough to believe that the group allocates aircraft solely based on pilot wages, Despite ECAM ACTIONS’s stupid comments, I wish all Jetstar pilots the very best of luck with your PIA. Good on you for standing up to the company and fighting for the conditions you deserve. |
Originally Posted by Angle of Attack
(Post 10617552)
And you guys accepted ****house conditions all those years ago, you can’t rapidly change it your stuck with **** for the foreseeable future, that’s the way it works. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10617564)
Qantas pilots have the benefit of many grandfathered terms and conditions from when qantas was a government owned airline, which is great. The JQ guys and gals are doing their best to try and fight for better T&Cs from a deal that the vast majority of us weren’t here to agree to when the airline was established (I myself was in primary school in 2004!). Low Fare Airlines whilst a real alternative (like SWA) actually didn't, despite the lack of grandfathering, government ownership or even protectionism actually push Low Wages. The low wage phenomena was driven by consulting firms with a spreadsheet approach to running airlines. They included:
1. The limitation of unit cost control 2. Response of established carriers. Key in this was the oversupply of pilots, usually self funded such that an "airline" had minimal investment in and as such was low risk strategy.The externality borne by the "applicant" who probably paid for testing and attendance. In the case of Ryanair uniforms too. Perhaps the saddest irony of the Jetstar model is that instead of complimenting the full service offering, myopic management focused on IR and setting work groups against each other. Convicted criminal former CFO Gregg said precisely that at a Parliamentary enquiry: "Jetstar would add competitive tension to labour unit cost" (paraphrase) Not content, myopic management driven by spreadsheets saw JQ the answer to everything. Doing so they neglected the Achilles heel of low fare airlines: yield. Jumping the shark is a Qantas specialty so they took JQ International. They hide it in the accounts but it bleeds cash just like the franchises. For an airline the size of JQ it exhibits classic overscale tendencies: Too much capacity for the revenue it generates. Mr Evans has his work cut out for him. The stellar expansion enjoyed by JQ pilots at the expense of Qantas pilots is well documented. Pilots quickly gained promotions while Qantas languished. The business is now over scale. That means JQ pilots have a fight on their hands. As JQ was deployed against Qantas, it is probable Qantas will be deployed against JQ as will Network aviation or others in a conga line of acquisitions..... If Mr Evans and JQ surrender any ground then the revenue margin, already narrow, may well invert! |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10617564)
Qantas pilots have the benefit of many grandfathered terms and conditions from when qantas was a government owned airline, which is great. The JQ guys and gals are doing their best to try and fight for better T&Cs from a deal that the vast majority of us weren’t here to agree to when the airline was established (I myself was in primary school in 2004!). |
I believe all Qantas line pilots are behind you and most if not all of the short haul pilots wish they could join you. Good luck with it. |
Originally Posted by A little birdie
(Post 10617772)
No wonder your comments come across as though they’re written by an ignorant child. You are an ignorant child! |
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