Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

QANTAS 2011 grounding about to be revisited?

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

QANTAS 2011 grounding about to be revisited?

Old 23rd Jul 2019, 01:41
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Darwin
Posts: 324
QANTAS 2011 grounding about to be revisited?


Given the recent statement made by the head of the ALAEA on this website that PÍA is a possibility with the Engineers EBA negotiations and the distinct possibility that Qantas Pilots will again be forced into PÍA in order to pursue improvements in workplace conditions are we about to see 2011 revisited?

Given that Alan Joyce has been paid the following over 10 years is he really so concerned with the salaries of his technical staff that he is prepared once again to go to war?

2018 10,869,000
2017 24,584,000
2016 12,960,000
2015 11,884,000
2014 2,009,000
2013 3,331,000
2012 2,280,000
2011 4,071,000
2010 2,924,000
2009 3,664,000
* * *$78,576,000***

Alan, I will give you a tip. Your inability to engage with your operational employees in any meaningful way is costing the company a fortune. Your petty squabbles over small sums (compared to your salary) means that you have lost the big picture of the cost of a disengaged workforce.

Your employees don’t wish to fight with you, they just want their fair share of the spoils having taken numerous pay freeze hits when times were tough. Given what happened to your salary in 15/16 when the last of the pay freezes was implemented is it any wonder that the troops are staging a revolt.

They are not stupid and they are not blind. What they are are decent hardworking people who keep the show on the road whilst you are tucked up in a warm bed.

Your $2500 bribe was seen as an enormous slap in the face which lost a lot of goodwill in an instant. If you don’t believe me run a real engagement survey. You know, one where you don’t just record the answers about how I get on with my workmates. The reason that answer is always improving, by the way, is because the operations staff are all growing closer as a result of your actions to marginalize them.

Think about that. As the CEO your inability to engage with your workforce has resulted in your workforce engaging against you. If that is the legacy you hoped to leave then great. If not then I am sorry but that is what you will be remembered for by those who are left after this company has been sold out from underneath them.

The major shareholders must be very happy having recouped their original investments through the share buybacks and dividend distributions that have taken place over the last few years. Unfortunately for the next CEO the fleet renewal vacuum will place a major strain on capital and borrowings and may well cripple the business. As there is nothing left to sell, and the likelihood of a share placement at current prices is highly unlikely at best the inability to raise capital will mean that once again the employees will be asked to sacrifice to “save the business from terminal decline”.

Sound familiar?

The only difference this time is that you and your consultants will have ridden off into the sunset with your millions and have nothing to lose.

Engage meaningfully with your workforce Alan, for all our sakes.






Last edited by What The; 23rd Jul 2019 at 06:36.
What The is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 02:17
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of Oz
Posts: 186
He doesn’t read PPRuNe.

He won’t lock out the airline again.

He he doesn’t care about anyone else, hence why he is in the position that he is in.

Rinse and repeat with this guy, just do you job and go home, like the short haul EBA... or the long haul EBA or even the engineers, we all live in a country people fight and die to come to, working in some of the best conditions and terms available in the world, earning in the top 20% to top 5% in the country.

At some point, you gotta look inside and find happiness. Chasing tails here, yelling from below, won’t do anything.

ROH111 is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 02:24
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 134
Well said What The. Here's the problem in a nutshell. Joyce was given the job of destroying QANTAS after Rod Eddington initiated the decline by merging Australian with the airline to fatten it for sale. That ensured it's safety record would eventually crumble, and Joyce has simply continued the demoralization and degradation of a once strong company. In simple language, they are both traitors to the airline and staff. Cabin Crew played a large role in the demoralization and degradation of the company, first by management allowing hosties to stay past their use by date, then by allowing too many jobs for friends, family, sex, or sexual preference, rather than on merit. The same is true of aircrew, many of whom are Captain's kids, commonly called Seagulls, because you have to throw rocks at them to make them fly. If the employees want to save the company it would require a Herculean effort from all concerned. Best of luck.
Manwell is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 02:28
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,679
The optics of a grounding and lockout are horrible.

The 2011 narrative was established well before the events of 29 October 2011.
Qantas International without any forewarning was declared "terminal".
With the Fair Work Act yet to be tested the narrative was established, coinciding with three big employee groups "negotiating"

The Qantas International "transformed" narrative served the self-interest well.

Pretty difficult to de-transform the airline again.

Downside risk is way too high, he is a one trick pony, but the narrative would not support even a cursory examination of the Little Napoleon's exclamations.

Just like in the Wizard of Oz, he is a little man behind a curtain (or screen of personal security) making idle threats.

Time is on the employee's side.
Rated De is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 02:51
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,752
The official figures given by QF management is that the shutdown cost $190M plus $62M in legal costs - everyone suspects that these figures understate the costs significantly. As Joyce was given very little of what he asked for by FWA, I can't see him being stupid enough to go down that path again.

Manwell, I think your memory is failing - Rod Eddington was the CEO of Ansett, not Australian (James Strong) and 100% of his salary was paid by News Corp, no wonder he didn't look after Air NZ's interests. The Federal government wanted to sell Australian due to its precarious financial position following the Domestic Pilots Dispute in 1989 and wanted $400M for it. SQ was the only other serious potential buyer an, after due dilligence, they offered $125M which was probably a fair price considering the level of debt. As QF was still government owned, strings were pulled to have QF buy TN for the full $400M that the government wanted and it gave QF the domestic capacity that they wanted. Prior to this, QF & AN had a commercial agreement to put passengers on each others services - the loss of this on-carriage hurt AN significantly when TN was purchased. Apologies for the thread drift.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 04:06
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post
The official figures given by QF management is that the shutdown cost $190M plus $62M in legal costs - everyone suspects that these figures understate the costs significantly. As Joyce was given very little of what he asked for by FWA, I can't see him being stupid enough to go down that path again.

Manwell, I think your memory is failing - Rod Eddington was the CEO of Ansett, not Australian (James Strong) and 100% of his salary was paid by News Corp, no wonder he didn't look after Air NZ's interests. The Federal government wanted to sell Australian due to its precarious financial position following the Domestic Pilots Dispute in 1989 and wanted $400M for it. SQ was the only other serious potential buyer an, after due dilligence, they offered $125M which was probably a fair price considering the level of debt. As QF was still government owned, strings were pulled to have QF buy TN for the full $400M that the government wanted and it gave QF the domestic capacity that they wanted. Prior to this, QF & AN had a commercial agreement to put passengers on each others services - the loss of this on-carriage hurt AN significantly when TN was purchased. Apologies for the thread drift.
Not a drift but a good correction I’d say.
dragon man is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 04:12
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,561
The official figures given by QF management is that the shutdown cost $190M plus $62M in legal costs - everyone suspects that these figures understate the costs significantly. As Joyce was given very little of what he asked for by FWA, I can't see him being stupid enough to go down that path again.
Common sense would suggest you are probably right. However Joyce was hailed by the Business Community and the Liberal Party as a hero and it certainly pushed up his social capital within those ranks despite it being an overwhelming loss for Joyce. The narrative was that he had courageously taken on the Unions and won. He also managed to gain the help of the Labor Party in doing so. Whether this perceived victory has embolden him to try it again we are yet to see, however I would agree that the smart money will be on never trying something so stupid ever again. However the real issue for the Pilots (Just like 1989) is that the shutdown was never about money.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 04:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wellington
Posts: 219
What The, very well said, the disconnect between Coward Street (how appropriate) and Operational Staff continues to widen. Remember 2008 and the almost buyout? Remember 2011? I am sure those who are basket weaving or lining up in the Street for their 6th coffee for the day don't...
Street garbage is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 05:22
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Common sense would suggest you are probably right. However Joyce was hailed by the Business Community and the Liberal Party as a hero and it certainly pushed up his social capital within those ranks despite it being an overwhelming loss for Joyce. The narrative was that he had courageously taken on the Unions and won. He also managed to gain the help of the Labor Party in doing so. Whether this perceived victory has embolden him to try it again we are yet to see, however I would agree that the smart money will be on never trying something so stupid ever again. However the real issue for the Pilots (Just like 1989) is that the shutdown was never about money.
That’s a pretty accurate post. And the last sentence sums it up nicely - it was never about money. It was about control of the Industrial agenda - control that worked for close to 8 years with very little industrial rumblings coming to the forefront at QF.

However - the next 12 months should be more interesting. Pilots should be encouraged by the PIA conducted at Tiger. The pilots went on strike (the importance of which cannot be understated - the first strike action by pilots since ‘89) and got significant improvements to their EA because they were willing to ‘walk the walk’.

Now I admit that dealing with QF IR would be significantly more difficult than VA IR, however the fundamentals don’t change - the pilot groups have to be willing to do more than just bang fists on the table.

Given the significant earning of the CEO (and Executive management) and the fact the Company is making profits in the billions, it is not unrealistic to reject the arbitrary 3% QF group wage policy. However - it takes the pilot group to be willing to take some action.

Whilst it is not legal to conduct pattern bargaining in Australia - there is nothing stopping the four pilot groups (Eastern, Sunstate, JQ and QF SH - all with open EAs) to all reject the QF wage policy. If all pilot groups were willing to reject the policy and then take some action (it does not even necessarily mean stop work action) I would suggest that the QF policy may become a little more flexible than what it currently is.

It’s good to be cautious when thinking about taking industrial action - but as shown at TT, the world does not fall in when you do. Industrial relations law has changed significantly from ‘89, and I would be very confident that another lockout at QF is a significantly low risk.

So the two key things that are required of the pilots now - the willingness to ‘push back’ a little against QF management and their IR team, and some solidarity to be able to stick together.

I wish all pilots and engineers working in the QF group all the very best over the course of these ongoing negotiations.
hawk_eye is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 05:51
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by hawk_eye View Post

Whilst it is not legal to conduct pattern bargaining in Australia - there is nothing stopping the four pilot groups (Eastern, Sunstate, JQ and QF SH - all with open EAs) to all reject the QF wage policy. If all pilot groups were willing to reject the policy and then take some action (it does not even necessarily mean stop work action) I would suggest that the QF policy may become a little more flexible than what it currently is.

Hallelujah. The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced.
ConfigFull is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 07:07
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 31
The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced
Most pilots these days burn an extra 5% anyway (fly fast and get home sooner) or could easily save 5% if they wanted to but they just couldn't care anymore.

There is just no incentive to do the right the thing, and no recognition or reward either.

I wonder if management realise this, or they probably do but they don't care and it is all accounted for anyway.

Maybe the think the price to pay to keep pilots happy (positively engaged) is not worth the fuel savings.

Maybe they don't want pilots to think that fuel burn actually hurts them and that it can give them some power.

Maybe try burning at least an extra 10% ?

Last edited by a_pilot; 23rd Jul 2019 at 07:17.
a_pilot is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 07:20
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by a_pilot View Post
Most pilots these days burn an extra 5% anyway (fly fast and get home sooner) or could easily save 5% if they wanted to but they just couldn't care anymore.

There is just no incentive to do the right the thing, and no recognition or reward either.

I wonder if management realise this, or they probably do but they don't care and it is all accounted for anyway.

Maybe the think the price to pay to keep pilots happy (positively engaged) is not worth the fuel savings.

Maybe they don't want pilots to think that fuel burn actually hurts them and that it can give them some power.
I'd say they can't enter it into a spreadsheet so they have no idea. Just to make sure - how about we all depart 16 minutes late and make it up enroute, using the extra 5-10% we ordered (a TEMPO is about 5-7% on what I fly)...
ConfigFull is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 08:33
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 8
Posts: 725
From the outside it’s interesting to contemplate QF, JQ and Engineers all doing EBA at the same time. Could get interesting for Alan. Can control the Australian representative Rugby Union selection but can he control 2000 pilots at once?

the importance of which cannot be understated - the first strike action by pilots since ‘89
I think Tiger did PIA on the last EBA as well.


Configfull is on the money. 16 minutes late is the achillies heel. Connected to bonuses this one gets attention much quicker than fuel ever would, even though fuel is MUCH more expensive!

This could get very interesting!
Berealgetreal is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 09:13
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Nz
Posts: 415
What is the relevance of 16 minutes?
73qanda is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 09:21
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 8
Posts: 725
Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
What is the relevance of 16 minutes?
I think it’s 15 actually but it’s the point when a delay is made part of the BITRE OTP stats that get published it’s also connected to Executives KPI’s.

14 minutes late no delay recorded, 15 or 16 (not sure which one) delay recorded. You could burn fuel all day long but this one really gets people paying attention.
Berealgetreal is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 09:24
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 240
16 minutes late is considered late for on time performance statistics and therefore the management KPIs tied to it.

A flight arrival is counted as “on time” if it arrived at the gate before 15 minutes after the scheduled arrival time shown in the carriers' schedule.
Domestic On Time Performance

Wing Root is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 09:47
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,679
KPI metrics are chosen and implemented at executive level.
They will simply change the metric.

It begins at the individual level.
Get creative and as others have mentioned, many of the group pilots are out of contract.
Secondary boycott provisions being what they are, it must be lead by individuals.
Contract compliance is a two way street.

How many pilots accept updates to their company device in their own time?
How many sign on early and commence reading NOTAMS?
How many carry a telephone?
How many use that personal telephone to provide a very convenient point of contact for the company? "Managers" have company provided phones.
How many pilots extend a tour of duty? How many pilots actually understand that the risk for an accident outside TOD limits rest with the individual?
Defect management is a rich field. The engineers are a big help.
How many pilots actually consider that "Fitness to fly" is an all encompassing and subjective phrase?
How many pilots continue when fatigued?
How many pilots "volunteer" to work on days off?

The CAO and CAR empower pilots.
Airline management spend an inordinate amount of time convincing pilots that the company manuals, the contract and management matter more than statute. They do not. The regulations empower and punish pilots, pilots are accountable to the regulator first. Comply with regulations for fuel, duty, rest, fatigue and even maintenance and get creative.


Make them count what they assume is a given and they notice.

Tiger pilots did it, British Airways pilots are doing it, what is missing at the moment is guidance from the "representatives" and indeed action at the individual level.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/...-a9015001.html
Rated De is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 10:04
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Sand dune
Posts: 192
They may only be a small group of some 200 pilots but they took it to QF via Cobham and won BIG! PIA didn’t even reach full maturity but it was so concerning to QF that the EB was pushed through at seemingly any cost. Ask any 717 pilot what their salary looks like these days and you’d be surprised what they achieved.
Blitzkrieger is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 10:56
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: M.I.A.
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by Berealgetreal View Post
From the outside it’s interesting to contemplate QF, JQ and Engineers all doing EBA at the same time.
This could get very interesting!
You’re not wrong!! Hopefully the chickens of his atrocious management style are coming home to roost.
Bug Smasher Smasher is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2019, 15:02
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 68
How many pilots "volunteer" to work on days off?
My airline literally could not crew all scheduled flights if people stopped doing this... but it’s become something that most are actually quite “proud” of. We even get condescending messages from crewing at 5am stating “Who wants a MEL return?! Call now to claim the $$”.

I’d hope the more learned QF crews haven’t fallen into this trap.
VHFRT is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.