In


12345678

It was literally in response to someone dismissing them because of their age, so quite fitting in context.

What was this thread about again?

Because they are not concerned by it. They will already have contigency plans in place for whatever is agreed to. Remember that all that has happened is that the AFAP has been given legal approval to have a ballot conducted of what form the PIA is to take. If the JQ AFAP pilots think that they will be walking off the job and teaching JQ Management a lesson then they don't understand that the current industrial system is skewed entirely in managements favour. All that will happen at the end of the PIA will be the union reps will sit down with the company reps and the first word spoken will be "Right where were we?"

Real wages falling in western economies is not an accident.

Fair Work is fair in name only..

Kabuki theatre the lot of it.

With PIA approved by FWA, Jetstar will probably not want to continue talking with the AFAP until the action is either over or cancelled beforehand. I believe PIA voting requirements mean it could get up with a relatively small number of yes votes.

So your point is what, give up and take a paycut for offering even more efficiencies, greater capability's and accepting even further responsibility? All whilst management pays themselves further record amounts?

PIA isn't about 'teaching JQ a lesson'. Its about trying to beat some common sense into a set of very recalcitrant executives who view JQ as their own personal ATM machine, pocketing vast sums of money previously earned by the people who do the actual work. The effects of the payfreeze will be felt compounding for the rest of peoples careers, and in the meantime crew are expected to operate the largest narrow body fleet of any airline in the country, most passengers, longest sectors, most sectors, fewest days off and highest approach capability (soon to include 0.1 RNP) , all for the lowest pay by a mile.

What is being asked for is hardly unreasonable. Indeed, should the company offer what they have been running around telling the media in a blatantly dishonest smear campaign, ie, 305k for 75 hours a month, the whole EBA would be signed within a week.

And you are clearly an AFAP member, there you go one all. So tell us from your side of the fence what you think will happen? What would type of PIA would you like to see and what do you want to see as a result of it? From what I have seen from those agitating for PIA they just want to vent and let of steam because AJ gets 24m a year! No one has said or discussed what they want to be the result of PIA they just want PIA. After the PIA the agreement still has to be finalised and from what I can tell that stage hasn't been reached. So what happens after PIA and you don't like the agreement, do you then go through the laborious process of applying for PIA again? Just to be clear no Jetstar pilot is going on strike over Christmas be they AFAP or AIPA so the question is, what is the point?

What do I think will happen? One of two things.... depending on what is around the corner with the intro of the 321LR. (What that is will be anyones guess)
If JQ management have some sh!t sandwich they want to the crew to swallow with the rollout of this fleet, they will want an agreement quickly before it arrives. No good having an open EBA that could allow the troops to facilitate conditions that doesn't fit with the business model. Thus it will force Jq management to come up something quickly.

Other option (more likely) this will drag out as a protracted, 'greedy pilots,' 'we can't afford,' 'the QF wages policy,' 'headwinds on the horizon,' 'rising fuel costs,' 'Lionair are coming,' 'Air asia are coming,' 'unsustainable claims' and so on we've all heard before.

If you were only half listening to the crew, I would probably agree with you that however if you have a listen to the rest of the story, it would reveal that most people just want the company to negotiate fairly and without the bulls!t QF policies that have been made up on the fly and are only there when convenient to disadvantage. If its ever a QF policy to our advantage, the answer is 'No, your low cost.'
The company negotiators are utter muppets that have no authority, bargaining ability or say in any future of the agreement. They are merely there is stalwarts who aren't actually allowed to make any decisions, hence the reaction that your getting from the crew.

In a word, probably.
I think most people are expecting to get locked out, as AJ has done before. If they aren't, they should be.
The QF dispute was put to bed after FWA conceded 'fears that an extended period of grounding would do significant damage to the national economy, especially with regards to the tourism and mining sectors.' I highly doubt the same could be said for JQ, but hey you never know.

I don't disagree with any of that statement and it has certainly been the case with all the JQ EBA's. It is unfortunately standard QF Group HR practise to send in the clowns then when actual decisions need to be made those with authority come in. Have a chat to the EBA cc about how their latest agreement was negotiated. In my view however it makes the current application for PIA even less effective than the usual ineffectiveness of PIA.

Yep but if you look at the Fair Work Act Division 6—Suspension or termination of protected industrial action by the FWC then you can get a bit of an understanding why the PIA taken by pilots is very limited in scope. The economic harm that a CEO can inflict however is not covered. So the call for "strike action" is merely 70's rhetoric as it has effectively been made illegal and the FWC has the power to stop it.So my question still is, what industrial action do JQ pilots want to take that they think will be effective in getting management to change their mind about the log of claims?

Mate they are already well ahead of you! Haven't you seen the media headlines that have shouted that Jetstar pilots are going on strike for Christmas.

Don't think your scaremongering is going to work this time round Lookleft. As it has been pointed out already, its not about teaching JQ a lesson, its about not taking a massive step backwards in pay and conditions once again. Time will tell if PIA will work, it did for Tiger

I suggest you go and read the document:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awa...l/pr714350.htm

There are 15 potential actions available should they all receive a successful ’Yes’ vote.

Some are as innocuous as an orange tie...others a lot more attention grabbing.

I wish the JQ pilot group all the best in getting a deal that is fair and respectful after their many years of under-rewarded and over-utilised service spent building a successful and profitable business. As a JQ pilot said to me recently: “Its not just about money, or how hard we have to work. It’s about being treated as an equal member of the QF Group...not the poor step-child who is constantly given a raw deal compared to his other siblings.”

It will be an interesting December.

PG

I understand the anger in the group. We took a 4.5% pay cut in the last EBA and since then management have lined their pockets.

But anger isn’t great for decision making and whilst it’s easy to get caught up with the hysteria it might worth taking a moment to pause and think about what we’re doing and whether it will actually help us or (as I fear) will the QF higher ups use us to make an example of what happens to work groups who step out of line?

I really do hope I’m wrong and I would in fact be grateful to anyone who can show me the wisdom behind why PIA will improve our final agreement.

Spot on What The!

Well what's the worst thing they can do?
Give JQ flying away (ha to who?)
Lock you out? Ground the airline?... So what? Who cares.
If people don't have a bit of spare cash to survive a lock out or grounding I'd suggest you might have bigger problems.

Stay strong and I wish you all the best in your endeavour for better pay and better respect.

What scaremongering was I doing whatever the first time round was? Do you mean in the last EBA or the EBA before that or the EBA that was originally negotiated by the JPC before AIPA or AFAP represented JQ pilots? Ask the Tiger pilots who will be affected by the reduction in fleet numbers how their PIA worked for them.

Unfortunately once the drums start beating then emotion is all that drives it. The year of the fall of the Berlin Wall is testament to that.

You are assuming that the ballot will be successful. Its not the first time PIA has been initiated but an agreement was struck before the process was completed. This is the fundamental flaw with the threat of PIA this time around. There is no agreement! The other flaw is that there is no coordinated approach with the other union. For the many posters who are not JQ pilots and roll out the well worn cliches of "stay strong and united" then understand that the AFAP PIA is more about the politics of dominance over AIPA as it is trying to get a negotiated outcome.

I don't disagree with that but the airlines are no different to most other large corporations that thrive on exploiting the low wage environment that currently exists and has been pointed out by the Reserve Bank as being a drag on the economy. Everyone has had enough but the current industrial system has been developed to keep it that way. Whats the alternative? How radical do you want to get? The choice is to operate within the current framework which is what the AFAP are offering but don't expect any different outcome. If it makes people feel better and allow them to state " We showed them" then fine but lets be realistic and keep emotion out of it. Or go the HK students approach, but I doubt whether any pilot will be interested in going down that path. Your political freedom is not under threat, you are not facing deportation if you don't toe the party line and you can still quite easily put food on the table and keep a roof over your head. The main sentiment for PIA seems to be that its unfair that the CEO gets all that money and we don't.

Whats the alternative? Get an agreement that both unions put to their membership, vote on that, if not happy then as a unified pilot group go to the PIA process. Once that is completed (if it gets that far) vote on any revised agreement. If that is successful then everyone can take time out from all the angst for another 3 years.If the revised agreement gets voted down I suppose you try again with PIA but in my experience I have never seen it go to that stage as usually EBA fatigue sets in and people just want it finalized. Game,Set and Match corporate Australia.

Very accurate what the

If you think the ballot won't be successful you either don't work for Jetstar or you're a SBM. Its going to get a resounding yes vote. I'd be surprised by anything less than 90% for all forms of PIA. People are pissed like never before.

As to the fragmented Pilot base, what % of pilots do AIPA even represent now? And I don't mean simply being a member, but bargaining representative. The default is AFAP for dual members. Sure a few have kept dual membership due to > 50 year old LOL clauses, but the AFAP has seen significant additional membership in the last 2 weeks, and a great many are AIPA members.

I think its fairly clear that a unified pilot body exists, and it has little to do with AIPA.

How wonderfully defeatist.

Tiger secured 14% with PIA, oil workers secured 20% with PIA.

edit : Cant post link to Australian article due to my post count. Google it.

I do not agree that we simply give up.

Given that JQ pilots are expected to operate the largest NB aircraft of any NB airline in the country, highest number of pax (by a mile), longest sectors, most sectors, least days off, most approach capability, most roster flexibility, for the least pay, what do you suggest we do? Say thankyou? The company has made its position crystal clear. 3% (for the workers of course, obviously management isn't subject to this imaginary wage policy that nobody has ever seen written anywhere). No flexibility, no discussion. The end. Oh and we want to you to start flying wide body passenger loads internationally for regional airline pay.

Thanks.

xoxox JQ management.


We have applied for PIA as a unified pilot body group. The % of pilots not represented by AFAP is now minimal.

Highly paid professional going on strike asking for more money. You have completely lost touch with reality and you will get no support from Joe Public who just see you as greedy and selfish. Your playing right into the hands of management.

Here is the flip side of your statement......
"You are facing an arrogant white collar employee group who thinks it is acceptable for a select few that earn hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to stand on the necks of their working class customers who have spent their hard earning savings on taking a Christmas holiday".

Why do you keep repeating the same mistakes?

Don't need the support of Joe public, they're not the ones voting on the EBA. They may get pi$$ed off at jq pilots, but they'll probably be just as mad at jetstar as a whole. Jq already cancels plenty of flights even without a strike, due to lack of crew!

The bigger picture is that Joe public votes for the politician that sets policy, legislates and has specific powers under the Fair Work Act.

The pilot group do not need to win the hearts and minds of Joe Public, the company does. That's the reason the company has a marketing department in the first place.
Any fury will be at Jetstar as 'they' have just advised Joe of a disruption to his flight. The pilot is just a brand less and nameless person in a white shirt.

But if Jetstar can spin the narrative to blame the greedy pilots then that fury will be directed at the pilots. The battle for hearts and minds is not an insignificant one.

Ah but how exaclty would the pilots receive the public wrath? Jetstar (or any) pilots are as good as invisible to the public. Whether the public harbor any resentment towards the pilots will not directly affect what they get paid now or in the future. The pilots have little to fear in the way of 'brand damage' vs what the company does.

I was involved in pilot group industrial action years ago, the news that evening interviewed passengers caught up. Opinions varied, but the most common opinion was one of the big corporation bullying the worker at the coal face. Ultimately it didnt matter what the public thought as to effect to outcome of the EBA.

Further more, with 'the company' boasting record profits and executive remuneration in this climate, I suspect that any one sided claims of pilot greed would be akin to throwing stones in a glass house.

You're really clutching at straws now mate.