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So the Feds have applied for a PIA ballot. I haven’t seen anything from AIPA..... anyone else? |
Virgin NZ eba isn’t far off the Virgin Aus rate FYI. Recently voted eba. Virgin group narrow body rates are all pretty similar now only differences are the work rules. In the Tiger instance the offer changed markedly during PIA. I see it getting ugly as you have the record breaking CEO salary, record breaking profits and lowest conditions. Might very well be a December to remember. Hope it helps, all the best. |
AIPA are going to do a survey, great plan. PIA should IMO just be a withdrawal of cooperation, won’t take long for the wheels to fall off. Best of luck. |
AIPA are going to do a survey |
The surveys are actually important. In the early part of my career we weren’t asked what we wanted to give or get. Now the members are asked for their opinions to give guidance to the negotiating team. |
Originally Posted by Window heat
(Post 10618061)
The surveys are actually important. In the early part of my career we weren’t asked what we wanted to give or get. Now the members are asked for their opinions to give guidance to the negotiating team. |
Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10617599)
It is actually a little from column A and a little from column B.
Low Fare Airlines whilst a real alternative (like SWA) actually didn't, despite the lack of grandfathering, government ownership or even protectionism actually push Low Wages. The low wage phenomena was driven by consulting firms with a spreadsheet approach to running airlines. They included:
1. The limitation of unit cost control 2. Response of established carriers. Key in this was the oversupply of pilots, usually self funded such that an "airline" had minimal investment in and as such was low risk strategy.The externality borne by the "applicant" who probably paid for testing and attendance. In the case of Ryanair uniforms too. Perhaps the saddest irony of the Jetstar model is that instead of complimenting the full service offering, myopic management focused on IR and setting work groups against each other. Convicted criminal former CFO Gregg said precisely that at a Parliamentary enquiry: "Jetstar would add competitive tension to labour unit cost" (paraphrase) Not content, myopic management driven by spreadsheets saw JQ the answer to everything. Doing so they neglected the Achilles heel of low fare airlines: yield. Jumping the shark is a Qantas specialty so they took JQ International. They hide it in the accounts but it bleeds cash just like the franchises. For an airline the size of JQ it exhibits classic overscale tendencies: Too much capacity for the revenue it generates. Mr Evans has his work cut out for him. The stellar expansion enjoyed by JQ pilots at the expense of Qantas pilots is well documented. Pilots quickly gained promotions while Qantas languished. The business is now over scale. That means JQ pilots have a fight on their hands. As JQ was deployed against Qantas, it is probable Qantas will be deployed against JQ as will Network aviation or others in a conga line of acquisitions..... If Mr Evans and JQ surrender any ground then the revenue margin, already narrow, may well invert! |
A little birdie, Thankyou for your considered and constructive contribution /s |
Such a w****r ECAM. I’m 42. disappointing coming from a person in a group who, by other looks of things, might need some support. |
Originally Posted by A little birdie
(Post 10618057)
Lol. Nice try youngling. Not by a long shot. Even if I were the only people who think that’s an effective retort are ignorant children. You didn’t even have the smarts to think up your own retort. D-. More effort required. ouch.......... |
This is playing right into the companies hands. At heir latest roadshows in NZ they dropped the old chestnut that if the EBA can’t be resolved or becomes too costly they may have to move flying and or new airframes to other entities as the Aussie operation will have made itself too expensive. Now obviously we can see what they are trying to do but I don’t think they will be upset at this development as they are quite skilled in divide and conquer. Also the company seem quite keen on opening the NZ contract negotiation soon which would mean both the EBA and NZ CEA under negotiation at the same time, I wonder why they would want that! |
Ollie I can understand that playing out in Kiwi land, that operation loses money. It would probably be cheaper outsourcing the entire Kiwi operation to Oz crews. I’m not overly sure they would throw market share away because of pilot wages. It’s not the wages, it’s ceding share to Scurrah which he won’t do. |
Qantas IR is a huge empire. Creating conflict and dissent, pitting people against each other.
They will spare no expense to prove a point industrial. Economics, logic and common sense won't sway them it is ideology. |
Ch7 news Melb just tore down JQ pilots.. In a segment about "jetstar pilots ruining your Christmas plans", the reporter said simply "jetstar pilots earn $330,00 a year!" and "jetstar are looking to instead continue negotiations to avoid pilots grounding flights"..
Someone's gotta keep up with the game and counter these highly one sided reports to the masses... |
How much advertising revenue does a pilots union purchase in the media market? How about the Qantas group? There is your answer.
The commercial media is there to make a profit and facilitate influence to the highest bidder. The truth, a balanced story from the commercial media, good luck with that. Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations. --George Orwell |
Who gives a ****e what the news say - it ain’t a popularity contest. You just gotta have a thick skin, don’t read the news and have resolve. Good luck to the JQ Crews. If Ryanair guys can strike, and Hong Kongers can take it to the Chinese, I’m sure they can invoke their industrial rights in a democracy. |
Every Battle is won before it is ever fought.
- Sun Tzu The media and established power structures including employment relations are heavily slanted one way. It sure isn't the way of the employee. No point fighting their strengths or trying to counter them. They have deeper pockets. This is won in Operating Revenue impact. With a finely balanced low yield business, even just not answering the phone when crewing decide to call is powerful. Asymmetric options will wrong foot the well armoured dinosaur! |
Rubbish.
So someone in the negotiating team thought.... ‘I know, we’ll outsmart em, lets do PIA...... check mate Jetstar.’ I can just imagine the backslapping and grandstanding after 50 beers at the BP. Really? Hats off for strategic thinking boys. JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues alike. Moreover - are you ready for the bigger fight with the mother ship and its leader? Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k. As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%????? |
Arthur D;
Posts like this do my head in. In other news, JQ management is running around declaring to every media organization that NB Captains make 305k a year for flying 75 hours a month. If they offered the pilot body that deal, it'd be signed tomorrow. 305 for 75 hours? Man I'm in. |
JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues So what? I'm still to hear a convincing argument as to why this should hold JQ pilots back from fighting for their future. Lets not forget the general publics disgust with todays corporate greed. JQ pilots will be forced to once again go backwards in pay and conditions whilst the corporate execs continue to reap the benefits. Given this, it's not hard to see why JQ pilots are pissed off! |
Originally Posted by 2theline
(Post 10618431)
So what? I'm still to hear a convincing argument as to why this should hold JQ pilots back from fighting for their future. Lets not forget the general publics disgust with todays corporate greed. JQ pilots will be forced to once again go backwards in pay and conditions whilst the corporate execs continue to reap the benefits. Given this, it's not hard to see why JQ pilots are pissed off! |
Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k. As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%????? These are the things that influence pilot remuneration, not national average wage growth figures. JQ conditions are behind their Group colleagues and behind their major competitors so clearly there is some catching up to do. JQ is making hundreds of millions in profit so they certainly have the capacity to afford it. |
Originally Posted by Arthur D
(Post 10618288)
Rubbish.
Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k. As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%????? My surgeon mate is on $750K - don’t begrudge him at all - I’m not a surgeon.. As for the 2% - Qantas Grouo all took some pay freezes previously. Time to pay up while “the getting is good”. Bring on the fight - enough is enough. Good luck and stay strong. |
So someone in the negotiating team thought.... ‘I know, we’ll outsmart em, lets do PIA...... check mate Jetstar.’ I can just imagine the backslapping and grandstanding after 50 beers at the BP. JQ will drag you through the media and internal Comms. Be prepared to experience the ire of the general public and your other work colleagues alike. I think you would be surprised if you came out of your cave what the other operational staff think. There is no love for the basket weaving street dwellers out there I can assure you. I gave up caring about what other people think about me a long time ago. Moreover - are you ready for the bigger fight with the mother ship and its leader? He is not a leader. Not by a long stretch. It looks like they are ready for that fight too BTW. Right now throughout the Qantas Group (and Virgin) non operational staff on significantly less $$ than pilots are being handed letters and told to eff off by the 15th December. Meanwhile, those who are left need to figure out how to get the same work done with less people. I certainly do not see any fat in the operational areas, in fact, quite the opposite. Operational areas have been cut over many years and are critically understaffed in a lot of areas. Sounds like you are referring to the basket weavers again. Well, you have to share the pain if cuts are needed. Ask the Airport staff how much pain they have suffered. Ask the Engineers and Ramp as well while you are at it. Most of these people can only dream of $200k, let alone $300k. Most of these people do not hold the qualification to earn that sort of money. I tell you what, there are a lot of people who dream every week of winning 24 million dollars. As for wanting more than 3%, are you aware that the rest of the country is getting 2%????? My insurances went up 7%. Should I write and tell them that as my pay only went up 2% that is all they can do? Or freeze their premiums when I took a pay freeze MULTIPLE times. You get what you bargain for and I wish the JQ pilots all the very best in their endeavours. They deserve it. Unlike the obscene amounts of money being stolen from the business by managers. |
Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10618186)
Qantas IR is a huge empire. Creating conflict and dissent, pitting people against each other.
They will spare no expense to prove a point industrial. Economics, logic and common sense won't sway them it is ideology. Don’t believe the bull$hit and STICK TOGETHER!! |
To be honest I don’t give a s*$t if other people think my earnings are too high. They are welcome to licence up and earn that money too, just as I could go back to uni if I wanted to earn the $1 million plus that my mate earns as a surgeon. Pilot salaries should only be compared to pilot salaries, my point is that Qantas IR wants the IR action as it gives them a chance to try and split the pilot group (further) knowing that a fractured group is easier to control. |
The AFR is publishing that average Jetstar Cpt/FO widebody pay including super is $323, 274/ $234,516 and $304,576/184,260 for A320.
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Retort of the year What The. Well said. |
Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10618270)
Every Battle is won before it is ever fought.
- Sun Tzu This is won in Operating Revenue impact. |
Originally Posted by Vindiesel
(Post 10618906)
How's all that ancient Chinese miltary strategy working out for BALPA in British AIrways? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...0-day-20792927
The BA pilots themselves will either reject or accept the intended offer. ..... If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight and if not: split and re-evaluate. Withdrawal of labour is a big undertaking and the system now is heavily stacked against organised labour. Fair Work is "fair" in name only. With CPI under quoting real lived inflation (as the definition excludes many necessities) and the "Accord" held "bargained" outcomes to CPI Real wages have gone only one direction: backwards. |
Why has the business allowed itself to get over staffed that it gets to this point? I certainly do not see any fat in the operational areas, in fact, quite the opposite. Operational areas have been cut over many years and are critically understaffed in a lot of areas. Sounds like you are referring to the basket weavers again. Well, you have to share the pain if cuts are needed. Ask the Airport staff how much pain they have suffered. Ask the Engineers and Ramp as well while you are at it. What better way to build an empire of adoring subjects, with whom to wave at from the balcony that "invest" heavily in non-revenue generating staff. The only thing missing at Coward street are big murals to dear "leader" Little Napoleon |
Withdrawal of labour is a big undertaking and the system now is heavily stacked against organised labour. Fair Work is "fair" in name only. With CPI under quoting real lived inflation (as the definition excludes many necessities) and the "Accord" held "bargained" outcomes to CPI Real wages have gone only one direction: backwards. |
PIA has no impact? Did you miss the whole Tiger thing? It cost $20 million. They drove management out the door. And I like to think it cost them a Managing Director. |
It was just over $10m actually. They didn't drive management out the door...please! Merren's role was dissolved obviously by Paul as part of his leadership team redesign. You now have the ex-GM of Engineering running TT as a...EGM.
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T Vasis on the defence again for anyone Management related... PS spoke to the peeps on the line. They all had one thing to say. Tiger Management is nothing but a bunch of narrow minded delusional clowns. The proof is in the numbers. Anyway MM has she pissed on outta there yet? |
You make me laugh PoppaJo. Hardly defending the management team. Simply correcting wheels_down. Have to calm emotional sensationalism. Tigerair has been and continues to be, a long-term failure. It has a poor model and poor strategy. And that is the result of more than just 'management'.
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Anyone on here that thinks the financial woes of the “competition” are as a result of pilot conditions is completely uniformed and possibly delusional. Couldn’t be further from the truth. |
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
(Post 10618691)
Cry me a river - paid leave over Xmas. Whatever their salary, it was bargained for - and remunerated according to their role. If they want to earn what a pilot does? Become a pilot. My surgeon mate is on $750K - don’t begrudge him at all - I’m not a surgeon.. As for the 2% - Qantas Grouo all took some pay freezes previously. Time to pay up while “the getting is good”. Bring on the fight - enough is enough. Good luck and stay strong. As for the argument that We can’t pay pilots more, because then all the staff would want more, What a shallow cynical argument that is. Bravo Arthur D, it’s clowns like you who continue to devalue our profession. |
When can Jetstar, QF Shorthaul and QF Longhaul take PIA? |
Originally Posted by Predator Jock
(Post 10620048)
When can Jetstar, QF Shorthaul and QF Longhaul take PIA? AFAP must first apply to the FWC for a protected action ballot order. I don't know if that's been started yet but that process won't happen overnight. Once granted, AFAP need to hold a ballot of members to determine if they are in favour of taking industrial action. I imagine that AFAP will have some rules about notice to members for running ballots so there's likely to be a delay there. The Australian Electoral Commission normally runs those ballots so that's not going to happen overnight either. If the ballot is successful AFAP then need to give JQ a minimum of three business days notice of their intentions. Long story short, it'll be a minimum of a few weeks till anyone can down tools. |
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