And why don't you think anyone showed up?

Was it because they have no confidence in the AFAP negotiating a good deal for them?

Most pilots at EBA time are a bit like the barbers cat, full of p#ss and wind but not much action when it comes down to it.

Lots of talk, threats but only to quick to sign then bitch about the EBA for it's duration.

Because they were all trying to do their 1000 hrs to make the pay look good ?

Look good to whom??

More so than ever pilots with experience are considering pay Vs work Vs location Vs living expenses/quality of life Vs quality of life for their family (omg! you mean pilots may NOT consider their families as their primary concern ...above girlfriends (or boyfriends :eek:) in various international stopovers?? surely not!)...Vs.....................etc.

If the less pay in Tiger Oz, along with the bonus clean air (admittedly more variable these days) Vs better pay in HK/China but families having to contend with increasing health concerns and respiritory complaints sees you come out on the "..more pay thank you.." side then go for it.
Others may go the other way and decide "..better quality of life.."

People making choices?? Interesting concept!

cheers
galdian

At least they have a union in Australia, which is something they dont have in Singas.

Galdian

It's a crap deal in a now crap profession in Australia.

Quality of life is a moot argument. I know F/O's in HKG who send their kids to Geelong Grammar for clean air and an education at 50K a year, company funded.

You couldn't do that in Jetstar. You live in a modest suburb, with a back breaking mortgage and the kids go to a modest school. You can't get ahead.

And you can bang on all about Australia having a great lifestyle. But they have the fattest kids in the world! Partly due the above- low pay, long hours, big mortgages. Who can afford a lifestyle? Or good food? The latter exported- Aussie steak for dinner tonight with an 86 Grange. :ok:

A Captain with a low cost in Australia, after tax is only on the same money as an F/O with a decent job overseas and has none of the perks.

The life style at home isn't what it used to be. Drugs, crime, bongans, cost of living, high taxes, political correctness, police state, declining quality of education in the state system, unaffordable housing and Krudd for a PM.

Excellent place to be a welfare recipient, politician or bureaucrat though, not so great if you're on an above average income and paying for it all.

I'll stay overseas enjoying the low tax and great lifestyle. Australia is very enjoyable on holiday, as a place to work it would be one of my last options.

Galdian, have to agree ( hate to admit it ). I walk around in amazement in this cesspit ( HK ) as people stick their heads in the sand ( or their bank statements ) and kid themselves the pollution is not that bad, well I'm afraid it IS that bad and getting worse. If you are a skipper with a LCC in Oz and can't afford to send your kids to a decent school, sell one of your friggin' toys ! Personally I would rather be at home when my kids get home from school each day, not in another country choking on pollution.
Mate, this place is a s**thole, over 100 days per year where vis is less than 8 ks due to pollution ( which by the way consists of mercury and beryllium ), either hot and humid or cold and humid.
I am not going to go into a lecture about the pollution, just google it, there's an abundance of info and its all bad :ouch:
Too many guys I work with have, in recent times, had kids and other family members, with serious illnesses, coincidence, I think not

I will now duck for cover to avoid the incoming from those who choose to poison their families for high pay and low taxes. good luck.

Had a chuckle at these:

BS ! I have a friend who is a motor mechanic, 30 years old, he owns 3 houses, the one he lives in is debt free, if you can't get ahead on 10K net ( Jet* Capt wage ) a month, you seriously need to visit a fin planner, or earth :hmm:

Yes, I hate that about Oz and it is certainly not the case here, you are treated as what you are...a foreigner.

This is a classic:

1,000,000AUD for a shoebox, yes the company pays for it, but now for a decent size place ( by decent I mean 1500sqft, half the size of a 4x2 in Oz ) it will cost you 1.5 mil AUD plus, the 10% deposit required for this ( yes, thats right 150,000 AUD deposit ) the 3% stamp duty and the 3.5% mortgage insurance all come out of your pocket. Unaffordable housing in Oz ....ha ha ha ha.

Ok, you got me on that one.

Fellow Aviators,

It would be a brave or desperate person who joined the ranks of Tiger.

No FO's are being employed or upgraded.
DEC's are being brought in on dubious "back dated" contracts and then flying in RH seat because there aren't enough FO's.

FO's are disillusioned.
Cabin Crew are disillusioned.
Captains are pi##ed off.:ugh:

The EBA is being treated with disdain by management.
The AFAP are about as useful as CASA.
And the MD walks away this month with a large 7 figure bonus.
God love aviation.:yuk:

If your looking at this as an FO stepping stone then great.
If you are considering it as a career move then spend some dollars on a good shrink, a Boeing endorsement or a very large G and T.

The EBA outcome may alter the progress of FO's but it won't change the attitude of "how low can we go management".:(

Short sightedness has scuppered many a sound business plan.
An opthalmic appointment is due for Tiger.:8

Can they come good on their promises?

It's outfits like this that have ruined the profession. MD collects her 2 million sharers and pi**es off leaving the pilots who've paid 50K for their ratings to try to survive on a pittance. Forget any EBA. The pilots have as much backbone as a jellyfish. As soon as Tony Davis cracks the whip they'll all fold up and agree to anything that's thrown to them. How can the pilot management stand over this cr*p?

At a 40% discount, it would seem wise to get the eba out of the way so they can employ and upgrade FOs. No eba = no expansion. With new a/c coming later this year, i hope they can get cheap parking for them somewhere.

I doubt Capts in the R/H seat fit into there "true low cost model".

Just wait a while and I suspect all will improve, and rather quickly too.

With the global upswing, crappy airlines like Tiger will be the first to suffer huge aircrew losses. It happened last time at J* (and will again) and this will also hurt Virgin but will decimate Tiger unless they improve T&C for pilots.

The other airlines that will suffer will then be those in polluted places like HK where no amount of $ can offset the health damage done to innocent family members by forcing them potential significant respiratory illness by making them breathe-in toxin-laden "air".

Yes but he's a MOTOR MECHANIC not a pilot. How come he only owns three houses and is still having to work at the age of thirty ? :E

When you have your training paid for, recieve an allowance while learning and get onto good money at an early age it's easy to get ahead.

If he'd shelled out $100 000 for a CPL/A320 rating, spent years in low paid jobs building experience and was now starting with Jetstar, he'd be lucky to own furniture never mind property.

I have friends too. I don't get your point about your friend. Most of my friends outside of aviation wouldn't believe me if I said an airline Captain got 10K.

This is about the entry price for a good house in a good suburb in Oz.

Airport West and Sunbury don't count.

So when are you joining Tiger BTW???

BS
I live 8km from Brissy CBD and bought this 4 bedroom brick double story house 2 years ago at 400k, and 15 mins from Airport too. Depends what you call a good house I guess.

Entry Level House AUD 1,000,000
 

Don't know where your looking at property but you should fire your real estate agent. I own a 150 sqm 3 BR + study appartment on the beach. And i can guarantee i didn't pay anywhere near 1 mil for it. Unless you consider beach front suburbs slums!

I use to work overseas chassing the big coin before i came to the inevitable conclussion that nearly all expat pilots come to. What price is worth putting your life, and the life of your family on hold for. Trust me, no international airline pays you enough for that. Time away from your family on trips while their stuck full time in whatever s%^thole your working out of. Or you send them back to Oz to live and never see them. It's no life as far as i'm concerned.

Now I roll out of bed in the morn, walk the 60 steps from my front door to the beach, and go for a surf before sign-on and think how lucky i am.

Bet you can't do that in HK!

From the last two posts it appears that the low pay on offer in Oz has lowered expectations as well, an airline managers dream come true. With low expectations, there exists little chance of your lot improving.

Circa $1M will only get a reasonable house in most Oz capital cities. Airline pilots have traditionally done better than this.

With low pay & low expectations, all should be happy. Reading Pprune suggests otherwise. Perhaps its just us old guys who know otherwise doing the whinging.

Well it's about time some of his compatriots complained vehemently about him being so obviously over compensated. Some Motor Mechanics should go overseas to earn big money, but bitch about poor living conditions, only to return with a wad of cash and undercut your friend; which your friend should graciously accept because that's their right as a fellow Mechanic & your friend had it too good anyway. Your friend could be a member of the union, but said union will pick a fight with itself, p!ss in it's pants, blame your friend & explain that it's not actually a union as much as an order of the odd fellows. Your friend should also be compared to a poorly paid industry, regardless of how tenuous the link. Like Baker's; Do you realise how hard a baker has to work for their dough? How dare your friend try to get ahead. Doesn't he realise that's not the Australian way? I certainly hope that the Government are gouging the hell out of him so that we'll all be better off. :=

Let's get back on topic, thanks.:ugh:

What happens in GA, soon happens in the scheduled airline system.
It's happening now. For the same reasons. Caused by the same people.

I hope I'm in line with the subject of Tiger Tales. But I find it interesting that anecdotes of pilots coming home from abroad, to a longed for Australian lifestyle, only to resign from Tiger.

So they must have accepted the coin. But something went awry with the job/lifestyle to resign.

I hear Hong Kong will dry up as a source for experienced, type rated pilots. A part time scheme is on the table- work 5 months of the year and get paid the same amount ( probably much more if the $ weakens ) than a low cost Australian captain.

A Le Rhone
Which particular global upswing are you talking about. All I can see is the creeping death comming from Europe.

Also remember, Tiger can always increase fares and service should the rules of the game change.
SN

Your whole post couldntve said it better Metro, but it'll
never be an option for me because of the fact the whole
Oz airline system has become a sick mickey mouse joke.

The last bastion of any real airline standard was the White
Rat mainline. Well thats gone too. Danada kaput finished.

To quote a poster from another thread in the Oz forum
"the aviation industry is now completely f^#cked in
australia". Well its been obvious a long time that this was
eventualy going to happen. The only surprise is it took 22
odd years.

When its properley researched and thought out Tiger is
merely a symptom not the cause. But what would I know.

Gnads and Outtahere

Firstly Gnads I trust the '86 Grange did not die in vain and complemented your exported Aussie beef!
To both I say - let me guess but both gained experience from the extremely good training and standards inherent in the "regulated" days of airlines in Australia - and when either forced or volunteered to go overseas you took all that good training - and of course your innate, extra-ordinary personal skills - :ok:- which were well regarded and you now sit back in the latter years of your careers and throw stones. :=

Guys/girls looking to start out now can only look at what is available now - just as you did and there's only ONE option left in Oz that works on the basis that allowed Gnads to knock off his Grange the other night.

That leads to:
VelvetHammer - "brave or desperate to join Tiger".

I'll be the devils advocate - maybe more brave to join Qantas??
Deregulation means new airlines start with zero overhanging debts - Qantas has HUGE overhanging debts as has been going so long and who is to say that at some time the planets don't line up and ... there goes QF???

I certainly hope never happens - but anyone who believes it can't happen should grow up, in all changes some people win, some lose, deregulation and a freer labour market has seen some win, some lose; QF is not immune to the real happenings in the real world.

Johannschmidt - like it or not the $$$ are not being the pilot but being the driving force - SR gets a payout from Tiger, GD copped anywhere up to $11M per year for X years (is anyone THAT good they deserve that remuneration??), Godfrey overall - who knows??
If you're up to their standard go chase the money - if not go fly planes; your choice only limited by your abilities...or nouse...or grovelling.

Gnads - people make a decision to leave a "solid" position and give Tiger a go, then decide to leave for whatever reasons; "grass not always greener" comes to mind and not all who come to Tiger then leave.
People making choices and then varying them for whatever reasons - hardly a capital offence in my mind.

Finally Outtahear - and others - please tell us HOW we can get back to anything resembling the pay as it was in the good old days, simply saying "in my day" is rubbish as other peoples today is NOW in todays environment.

It's called reality ;)

Cheers
galdian

We will never get back to the "good old days" pay wise, its over for good! Way too many wannabees willing to work for peanuts and a tree to swing in and will borrow from mummy or daddy to get started. LLC wages will be effectively 5-10 percent less in ten years than what they are today because of the shear number of wannabees trying to get in, and lets face it when you work it out you can get a "proper job" straight up with a cadetsh#t and don't have to worry about GA an awfull lot will take the cadetship! GA scares a lot of wannabees off.

I also think J* is using the cadetship to bring wages down to compete with Tiger over the long term.

Any word on the EBA?

Probably easier today to get an airline job than it was twenty years ago when the odds were you wouldn't get into QF/AN/TAA. However you're now paying for the endorsement and earning alot less with fewer benefits.

With modern automation aircraft are easier to fly but you are still expected to sort it out when things go wrong. The disruption to family life, career hanging on last base check/medical, total responsibility and high standards are still there.

I can't see the pay going back up to previous levels for jobs in desirable locations. If you want to live in Brisbane and spend Friday night at the Brekky Creek Hotel, your sights are going to have to be set a bit lower.

If chasing $$$ Asia and the sandpit. Major airline with house/school fees/medical insurance preferably. Even then don't expect Cathay "A" scale conditions and if you come back expect to have to work for a low cost.

Metro Man
Don't forget to add your career also hangs on the economy more than ever before. The LCC does not have the margins of the QF and AN of old to be able to ride out losses. Id'e say a job with a LCC is no safer than working in the mining industry anymore.

The volcano very nearly put Ryanair to the wall. Low margins mean no cash reserves, on the other side id'e say at the moment VB are under the Pump with forcast debt and downgraded profits, Tiger are riding high with low overheads the best cost per seat NM. I would not be suprised to the face of aviation in this country change signifiantly over the next 5 years or so.

5 more aircraft announced today to come into the system (to bring the total to 13), with the first flights out of Avalon commencing on the 10th November. A strong airline to be in at the moment!


go_soaring! instead

Having flown both, that statement is debatable and the more it is disseminated to the public the less the wage increase for pilots...

you mean 4 more additional, there are already 9 in the oz system. 2 will be for Avalon + another 2 (most likely by March 31st) for either Avalon or Tulla.:ok:

Straight from a media release..

go_soaring! instead



Five aircraft agreement with Victorian Government announced today – bringing the total number of aircraft to be based in the state to 10!


Addition of all five aircraft for Victoria brings total number of Tiger Airways A320 aircraft in Australia to 13 and creates more than 200 jobs (flight crew and ground handling/ maintenance partnerships) in Victoria!


With 10 aircraft based in Victoria, Tiger Airways will provide around five million visitor seats in total through the state annually!!


Tiger Airways today announces first flights from Avalon Airport to Gold Coast commencing 10 November 2010

Possibly squeeze one more into MEL, but the other one will be probably AVV based if things go to plan, I dont think they can fit 2 into Tullamarine unless they are parked at JH.

These newbies will be fitted with leather seats.

do your maths!

there are 9 aircraft at the moment.

i.e. 4 more additional aircraft.

there are 6 in victoria at the moment.

i.e. 4 more to be added.

the first of that five has already been delivered:

so as i said before, 4 more to come most likely by end singapore FY (MAR 31)

Good, but what of the EBA?
SN

AVV to PER and ADL announced.

Perhaps I'm out of the loop.

What's happening with the EBA at Tiger?

What are new-joiners supposed to sign-on to without an EBA? Wasn't this supposed to be in place by January and if not Tiger would be subject to prosecution?

Only type rated Captains can be taken on at the moment I believe, until the EBA is sorted.

Tiger trashed
 

Tiger Airways terminal trashed at Gold Coast Australia. Allegedly angry pax seeking revenge. I don't know whether I have ever heard of a passenger seeking such revenge. Just shows how much anger there was with this pax..

Wow, thats terminal rage! A whole new phenomena.
SN

Rix is dreaming if he can see a pot of gold in AVV-MKY/ROK. Rockhampton was always a lemon route, and it will probaly get moved back to Tulla. Getting rid of these crap routes was partly the reason that Tiger are now profitable in Australia.

A319's should be in Avalon.