I personally blame unions for the killing of our industry!
Letts go back 20 years and imagine this? Instead of looking after their mates in the airlines, the unions looked after the people that where being exploited in GA.
Imagine there where fair working conditions for instructors, charter and regional pilots!
I was in GA 20 years ago. I’ve meet corrupt politicians that cared more about our conditions!
Fat cats looking after other Fat Cats!
As an airline pilot now. I think we should start at the bottom, there is going to be a pilot shortage! Make the conditions so good that a GA pilot will think twice about leaving his job. This will increase everyone’s conditions.
Learn for our past mistakes!

The industry is as vibrant as it is today simply because everyone can afford to fly. Why can they afford to fly? Because of the LCC"s. If we go back to captains on 300K or whatever and f/o's on half that then that will simply increase the cost of flying and exclude a certain sector of society from flying. The contraction of our industry will start and the rot will set in. There can be no going back.

Lets imagine that TT actually fails in Australia. Does anybody actually think that JQ and VB would increase capacity to take up the slack? NO WAY. They will simply up the ticket price and increase yield. The result is a contraction in employment for pilots by 100 or so A320 guy's. Those jobs would be gone and not coming back. This said Tiger actually plays a very important part in the airline scene here.

Most gee-wiz boys and girls get into this profession to fly a jet, anything less will not do. It wouldn't matter how much you paid them to fly scenic's around a rock they still want to fly the jet and if that does not happen they will find some other way to make money. Of course they will winge later in life that the bus driver earns the same or thereabouts without the hassles, but the money doesn't matter that much until you get a bit older, settle down and realise how hard it is to get ahead in life.

Sometimes I think about if I would be happy to pay out 35K for an endo to go fly for an airline. The only thing that stops me is that when you add that to the 75K its cost me to get where I am you are very close to a full fee paying med student's costs and they will eventually earn a whole lot more than any pilot anywhere.
SN

SN, just look at the Hobart airport pax handling dispute, HBA wants to up this to $12 per pax, then there's the pax charge at the other end.
Sydney charges $14.39 per pax for handling & runway charges. Melbourne charges $9.21
Calculate the tech crew costs per seat for a SYD-HBA or MEL-HBA sector & compare it to the $20+ airport fee's. This is where the cost of travelling is, taxes & charges, not tech crew costs, even at 300k. Don't let them bluff you.

Story in the NT press that Tiger are ceasing ops to Alice Springs.

" Story in the NT press that Tiger are ceasing ops to Alice Springs."

seems they forgot the MEL-ASP flight. Still taking bookings at this stage.

Can we get back to Tiger info??

What about that rumour Tiger were going to operate A330's and 340's....

b.

Sorry for the continued thread drift but this needs answering.

Yes it will but by how much?

A Captain on 180K pa flying 900 hours pa costs 200 per hour
A Captain on 300K pa flying 900 hours pa costs 333 per hour

Say 150 passengers...divide in the hourly rate...$1.33 versus $2.00

Obviously for more passengers the effect is even less.

Now when you are burning THOUSANDS of DOLLARS of fuel per hour does $133 extra for the Captain really affect the bottom line that much?

Of course factor in an FO on higher wages too but the effect still pales into insignificance compared to depreciation, fuel, maintenance and fixed overheads.

Breakfasburrito
I see where your coming from with the calc's, had done them myself. Whilst it depends on how you look at it the biggest problem is that we have wannabees willing to hock themselves for a lifetime to fly jets. Additionally jet pilots (captains) still get paid a whole lot more than a GA captain. So where is this going? I don't know.

I do know that if your chasing cash then the jets is where its at even considering todays much reduced packages over yesteryear. The LCC is here to stay because they can.
SN

A council bus driver on $130k per year - is that a joke?????

130,000 is rubbish,

Check out any employment website and it shows bus drivers recieve around 15-25 per hour depending on experience.

Also, I lived with a bus driver and he was only getting around 55k with o/t..

Still more than a REX FO though :mad::mad:

As always, to make a point, people quote the highest or best figure. Yes, you can make well over 100 gorillas a year as a coach driver. But only the best need apply. That is the top of the tree. The average wage? After you take into consideration ALL the coach/bus drivers, most of whom are on less that 50, then the actual average is a helluva lot less than that 100+. Having said that, why are we even comparing the 2 occupations? The bodgie was wrong and a fool. Let's not perpetuate the myth by using the comparison ourselves.......

From the list of expenses I saw laid out before how much/what items can be claimed back from the tax dept?

Not sure how you get the figure of 10K back on the 28K rating either???
Is that even possible seeing as you have to get the rating to GET the job as opposed to it being PART of the job?

I agree 'DT"

I spoke to my accountant just recently about this very thing & he showed me Tax rulings to the effect that the course costs are not claimable if they are outside yr 'current' activities meaning if you fly for Joe Blogs using PA31's etc that an A/C endo of the likes of an A320 is considered outside & therefore not claimable.
Also to gain another position such as a job with J* or Tig's for Eg by getting such a rating then that also is not allowed for the claiming of tax deductions.
If the endo is to improve yr current work activities then it would be claimable.This is the way I read it as per the ATO's paperwork..........bumma for all those hoping.

Then again I guess you can ask the ATO for a private ruling on such matters & if they say no then that's that but if they say yes then they (ATO) have no come back on you during a tax audit for Eg sometime latter.

Obviously all of the above is just the way I see it & one should seek independent advice for their own circumstances:-)

Keep saving those receipts for pencils etc:ok:

Wmk2

Tax claims
 

You are correct, Wally MK 2, it is the same with all educational courses.

You can ONLY claim it if it has a direct relevance to your role in that tax year. For example, if you want to educate yourself in any manner, it cannot be 'in the hope of a better job' it has to be to help you in your current role.

I guess this stops people doing course after course and claiming it back.

I hit this wall a few years ago!:rolleyes:

Tnxs 'Nav' It's pretty much what my guy said whom I have known for many a year who is/was an ex ATO Accountant so I guess I trust his judgment on such matters.

Now if I could only get the RFDS to operate a heavy Jet then such an Endo would be relevant, ...ahhh I love the smell of 2 stroke in da mornin'...............tell 'em he's dreamin'!:E


Wmk2

Get yourself a better accountant who can work / interpret the rules to your advantage.

Got 16K return from 36k paid. therefore net cost of rating was 20K. I know others who have done the same.

GB et al

Still thought any "misunderstanding" still rested with the taxpayer if questions asked/an audit invoked regardless of advice of accountant - hence your signature on the piece of paper.

Things changed??

Cheers
galdian

A few points :

If you search enough for the right accountant, you will one that will claim anything. In this day and age of self assesment, it is not his problem, you can pretty much claim anything, and when you sign the return the responsibility is all yours to prove the claim is valid ( for 5 years )
As already mentioned above the rule is black and white, the only grey is what Jetstar and ( I think VB ) guys have used and that is they have a signed contract in their hand stating they need the rating as part of their conditions of employment, according to Simon Luton ( AFAP tax lawyer ) this is sufficient, do Tiger give you a work contract/agreement prior to you getting the endo ? If the answer is no, you could be in a world of hurt :ouch: It does'nt matter how many guys ahve gotten away with it, if you're the poor schmuck that gets caught its a 100% fine plus interest...ouch
I'm pretty sure " I know others who have done the same " won't stand up in court or at the ATO audit.

As an aside, the ATO has challenged 2-3 AFAP members ( all VB I think ) and the ATO lost with their usual statement " this does not set a precedence "

Galdian, spot on, the accountant has zero accountability ( no pun intended ) " yes your honour, jo bloggs told me that his claim was legit and see, he signed here "
The accountant will be glad to help you out though if you get an audit, at $200/hr.

Delta, the amount you get back will depend on your income in the year you claim, if you were in the top tax bracket you would get about 46% back

I have read the tax legislation on this subject. Stretching the parameters, look at it in a broad sense, forget when you started employment with tiger and when you actually did the endo, add a portion of hope and you may get away with it. Look out if you get an audit though.

As I see it its a no go. Would I try it on? Absolutely in the hope of no audit. I know of plenty who have claimed it and hopefully they don't get audited.

I would love to hear from anyone who has been taken employment under these circumstances and subsequently been audited just to know what happened.
SN

Sorry, hope this isn't seen as thread drift but it is directly related to the airline...
So if you do the salary sacrifice deal Tiger is offering for the rating isn't that rather hard for the Tax Dept to get out of, seeing as the employer is actually making the deductions?
Or have some of you gone else where for the rating as you found a cheaper course and so paid lump sum?

Delta
So far as i'm aware only Jetstar and VB offer salary sacrifice endo's. Tiger you pay upfront. Maybe they have changed this?
SN

TIger pull out of ADL-ASP
 

Hopefully a short term fix to an aircraft shortage as Tiger increases East Coast sectors. Should see VB flying back into the red centre (fingers crossed)

I hear OOL base announcement very shortly. Commencing this Spring/Summer.

From the Tiger website:
A320 rating, and experience, is a definite advantage however Tiger Airways does operate a self-sponsored training program for pilots not qualified on type.

Hmm, can anyone clarify if this is salary sacrifice or lump sum pay up front?

it is a salary sacrafice, however i beleive that option is no longer available.

GB
I know quite a few chaps in tiggrrr and none have been offered salary sacrifice for training or otherwise. Although all have done their endo's in the last 18 months.
SN

I'd suggest that you change accountants.

on a $30k Rating you can get around $15-19k back by spreading the return over 5 years.

As it's a one off bit of training it is considered a capital expense & therefore claimable. But you need to go to an accountant that specialises in aviation & has bothered to keep up with all the relevant amendments.:ok:

Problem is that Tax "accountants" aren't necessarily qualified accountants & may only have a cert IV or some such thing. Which may be adequate for most wage slave lodgements until something out of the ordinary comes along such as an aviation rating / endorsement etc. The "accountant" then has to go to the ATO for advice. The ATO, being a government department, is not unlike certain other gov departments that pilot's would be familiar with; In so far as no individual will commit to a decision, the stock standard answer is NO, or TOO HARD, and the person giving the advice may not know their elbow from their a:mad:hole, (taxationially speaking). So your "accountant", rather than waste more precious time (money) on you, is going to give you a negative answer.:(

Better to spend the extra money for a qualified accountant who specialises in this stuff.:8

Not exactly. That's a bit like saying that if you willingly crash an aeroplane into the ground, the powers that be will nail the accountant sitting in row 23D. "Your honour, we can prove that the accountant ticked the little box when purchasing his ticket online, thus absolving the pilot of all responsibility."

Might be wrong but I've heard that EVEN rated pilots are bonded for $10,000-15,000 as a 'training' fee.

Is that correct?

If true, for an airline that will be needing many pilots to fill their 30-50 aircraft, this seems like a stupid concept particularly when you then have to work like a trojan to get what other airlines regard as a base salary.

"PJ" yr comments are fair enough. I'm happy with my Accountant (he's an ex ATO man) & I have been with him for many years now working as a plane 'driver', know him well trust him well & will go with what he says. Remember accountants like pilots are not infallible both professions (if you can call a pilot a real profession) have 'read' things the wrong way with ugly consequences.
He gave me a copy of the Tax laws on this subject & I too read it that it's not claimable (although there are area's that are 'grey') but like everything in life some get away with it some don't. I'd rather have peace of mind not wondering if the Tax man knocks on my door one day to say..."plz explain".
Self funded endo's are the way of the future I guess.

Wmk2

Delta, salary sacrifice is definitely koshure, once you are employed by the company it is legit.

Ironicically you quote the part of the law that is exactly the reason you can't claim it. A capital expenditure of 30K when you are currently a PA31 pilot is a bogus claim, you don't need to be any type of accountant to work that one out.

WTF ?? what little box online do you tick that basically says you absolve the airline/pilot from all responsibility of getting you to your destination safely, must've missed that one :confused:
Conversely, you do actually sign your tax return ( try reading it next time ) saying that ( in as many words ) that you can substantiate all claims, it is their in B&W. Even when you use an accountant you are " self assessing ", you are ultimately responsible not the accountant. They have audit insurance because if the ATO comes after you, its you, not the accountant they are after.

Just remember punters, pilots make the worst financial advisors, in the ATOs eyes you are guitly until proven innocent, the fine is 100% plus interest, and just because all your mates got away with it, does'nt mean you will. Oh, and you have 5 years to sweat it out.

As I read the gaf from the ATO, if Tiggrrr were to supply you with a letter of offer of emplyment stating your start date and that you must obtain the endo for the offer to be valid, the grey areas become black and white.

Of course you must commence to claim the endo in the tax year you actually undertake the training. From what I can gather they are none too willing in this area.
SN

No you don't.
:ugh:
Probably the wisest words ever written!:D

Spending 5 minutes on an aviation forum doesn't make you a Pilot, but;

Spending 5 minutes on the ATO website makes every Pilot an accountant.:ugh:

Why anyone would even consider working for Tiger after watching "Airways"? The idea that this is stable employment just amazes me.

"Why anyone would even consider working for Tiger after watching "Airways"?"

Because what you're seeing on TV is Aero-Care, not Tiger.

Very few Tiger employees have featured on this series for one reason or another.

I did catch the show last night. I must admit it makes things a bit hard if you can't connect when the first flight is delayed. So why is this the case, is it because they don't have enough aircraft or don't want to do connections full stop? Do the other carriers guarantee your connection?

I think the reason for the show is to educate the public on what to expect when flying super LCC. Maybe things will get better when more aircraft arrive or perhaps they will all be 100% tasked.

PJ. Your accountant is obviously the best aviation accountant because he told you that you can deduct your endo legally. Others say different, at the end of the day when someone gets an audit its the ATO and AAT that will have the final say. I'm not saying that will go either way, i'm just saying that my adviser has raised enough doubt so as to proceed with caution and if you expect to lose, if audited, you won't be dissapointed.
SN

You may be right I'm the first to admit I'm no tax accountant. And if, as one of the most highly taxed citizens in the world, you choose to give the Federal Government an extra $15-19k, that's your perogative. Personally I think that money looks better as a Ducati.... Hmm, maybe not. ...Just a second......Yeah, no it definately looks better as a Ducati:E

But consider that if you do claim for a rating then you're certainly not Robinson Carusoe either. Many many many people have made claims, some have been audited, none are in jail (:ugh:). Does the ATO reserve the right to change their mind on the matter? Of course they do. Just as CASA reserves the right to pull AOC's, Licences etc. Although I would suggest that after all these years there may be a statute of limitations issue if they (ATO) did? Then again why wouldn't they allow a rating as a deduction? A job requiring a $30k Jet rating would have you paying around $20-30k / year to the ATO in income tax as an FO. :*

PJ
Agree with you there. At no point have I said I would not claim it, I would and under all circumstances. I would however be prepared that, if audited, it would depend on my specific circumstances whether or not I would have to pay it back. In other words I would not spend the refund for at least 5 years.

None of the cases challenged by the ATO match my circumstances exactly so its a bit of an unknown for me. I am not aware of anyone having to pay it back. I would undertaking the endo at a time that lines up as many legislated conditions as possible to give me the best chance of winning should I be audited. Then again at this point I am staying where I'm at, so won't concern me anyhow.
SN

I have to admit. I have tried everywhere, Does ANYONE know where you can actually speak to a person about pilot employment with Tiger????

A change of CEO at Tiger Aus

Ms Shelley Roberts has moved over for Mr Crawford Rix.

Well done Shelley, appreciate what you have done for the operation.
Short but sweet, best of luck in your future.
Hope you keep in touch.
Thanks

Shelley is burnt out, end of story. Getting Tiger into profit was one big job, would have been quite stressful also considering the shocking position Tiger was in when she joined. Tiger wouldn't be in Sydney if she wasn't around, and obviously they wouldn't have been chasing all these big traffic routes if it wasn't for her decision making.

Newbie on the block will be interesting.