Qantas SH EBA negotiations
You’re all talking about other pilot entities with this clause of, if one work group breaks the wage policy then they get it too.
Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.
So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.
So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
The following 6 users liked this post by Maggie Island:
You’re all talking about other pilot entities with this clause of, if one work group breaks the wage policy then they get it too.
Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.
So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.
So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
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The following 11 users liked this post by gordonfvckingramsay:
Im neither of those things but, belonging to a group who has recently ‘stuck it’ to IR, I feel somewhat qualified to answer. I don’t begrudge anyone from seeking the best deal for their work group but accepting a work around deal that enables the sh*tful destructive bargaining tactics of IR is in no way equal to forcing them to write a deal that breaks the wages policy into a contract. One results in kicking the can down the road and other work groups to face exactly the same tactics we’ve all grown to hate, the other sets a useful precedent and possibly results in a meaningful purge in IR. I get that not every battle can be fought but this is probably the best opportunity to kill the hydra that has arisen in a long time.
unions should shove our wages policy down their lying pie holes.
The following 2 users liked this post by Gas Chamber:
Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The following 2 users liked this post by Beer Baron:
Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The following 5 users liked this post by Ladloy:
Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).
So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.
From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.
Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
The following 3 users liked this post by walesregent:
You may well have created a competitor for your employer (trashing the business) but that has not improved your EA one bit.
Is this new start-up going to take 240 ex-NAA pilots? If 20 pilots go to the new mob and leave the other 220 on a crap EA is that a well negotiated outcome?
After all, there have long been other better paid jobs out there for pilots who wanted to quit, creating one more option is not going to solve the problems at NAA unfortunately, it’s just another chance to leave.
I’m sorry wales but I feel that what you describe still comes under the heading of “trashing the operation for no benefit”.
You may well have created a competitor for your employer (trashing the business) but that has not improved your EA one bit.
Is this new start-up going to take 240 ex-NAA pilots? If 20 pilots go to the new mob and leave the other 220 on a crap EA is that a well negotiated outcome?
After all, there have long been other better paid jobs out there for pilots who wanted to quit, creating one more option is not going to solve the problems at NAA unfortunately, it’s just another chance to leave.
You may well have created a competitor for your employer (trashing the business) but that has not improved your EA one bit.
Is this new start-up going to take 240 ex-NAA pilots? If 20 pilots go to the new mob and leave the other 220 on a crap EA is that a well negotiated outcome?
After all, there have long been other better paid jobs out there for pilots who wanted to quit, creating one more option is not going to solve the problems at NAA unfortunately, it’s just another chance to leave.
Short haul may not have the exact set of negotiating conditions that we’ve had but there are plenty of advantages to be pressed here and this is the best shot you’ll ever get to stop being turkey slapped by IR every four years.
The following 2 users liked this post by walesregent:
It wasn't the Network pilots that trashed the operation, it was the management of the parent company.
As usual however it's the operational staff (and occasionally the passengers) that get the blame.
As usual however it's the operational staff (and occasionally the passengers) that get the blame.
The following 3 users liked this post by Lapon:
Network just another outsourced B scale, passively agreed to by the pilots of the parent company to protect themselves for a 3% payrise.
Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.
Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.
The following 2 users liked this post by No upgrade:
Network just another outsourced B scale, passively agreed to by the pilots of the parent company to protect themselves for a 3% payrise.
Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.
Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.
At what stage did mainline pilots agree to any facet of the Network operation, particularly Ts and Cs?
Network Aviation had half a dozen Brasilias and two F100s when it was purchased by QF in 2010 as a blocking move against Skywest. Not even in your wildest dreams could you envisage what it has become.
The following 3 users liked this post by Transition Layer:
We’ll probably have to settle on disagreeing here. I believe that if we had taken their offer, along with their very finest side letter/wages policy work around (which, incidentally, is not something they offered during negotiations), we’d be haemorrhaging staff out of every orifice even more so than we currently are because it would have been so far south of market rates.
I do question though when you say NAA weren’t offered a wage policy work around. I understood that the first 2 years of the voted on EA had a wage freeze but from Oct ‘22 to Oct ‘23 pilots were to receive a roughly 10% pay rise. (Have I got that right?) That seems like a pretty good way of taking a wage freeze but not really taking one.
Now I’m not suggesting the EA was good and should have been voted up, but in terms of how to deal with the wage freeze, I think your reps negotiated a pretty bloody good “work around”.
as a blocking move against Skywest.
Not even in your wildest dreams could you envisage what it has become
Like Impulse, Jetstar, Jetconnect, National Jet, and Alliance?
At what stage did mainline pilots agree to any facet of the Network operation
Next time you’re staring at the stars, look up what an ‘alter ego’ clause is before you vote yes to your next cash bonus. Been around for 30+ years. Not your problem?
What the hell are you on about and what's it to do with the SHEA?
Keeping up with actual inflation is not a pay rise, it’s a cost of living adjustment
Most of us are home buyers, all of us ‘working people’. Despite the offical CPI since May 2022 10.9% the ABS has the inflation rate at 19.3% for working people. I’d imagine before May 2022 it would have been similar as well. When you look at the price of milk/bread/vegetables etc they have increased far more than 10% in the last few years. These are the most relevant figures for the upcoming short and long haul EBAs. An initial 20% is not a pay rise it’s just keeping up with actual inflation over last couple of years. Well even then probably not even keeping up in reality but a start.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...01-p5fo2b.html
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...01-p5fo2b.html
The following 5 users liked this post by regitaekilthgiwt: