Network EBA

[Gnadenburg]

Originally Posted by Gazza mate

There seems to be an endless supply of homesick expats willing to fill these roles. I suppose the company are aware of this and will just keep shaking that tree.

Trouble being, they return to Australia, thinking domestic flying will be something like the Ansett days. Seeing that in reality, the glory days of domestic flying are now somewhere between GA and Virgin Blue and they’re off again - at great resource expense to the company. That’s the curse of being a well paid expat. The job home becomes intolerable in part due their relative wealth to native Aussie pilots and even the bullying managements. You could call it the F&$@ You Money. As John Goodmen so candidly described the scenario in the movie The Gambler.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Originally Posted by LostontheLOC

Definitely isn’t, I think you’re massively misinformed.

recruitment is down across the entire group, almost to a point where we are begging people to come to interviews.

Yea well who the f..k in there right mind is going to take a job that is paying anywhere from 70k to 120k per year to be poverty striken paying their entire pay to rent. And then to even consider buying a home in a base is insanity. Either salaries need to increase by 100 to 150k pa or house prices need to go back to 500k. Aussie airlines are now just for hour building to go elsewhere. I think many in my generation are getting very tired of having a professional career and being unable to afford anything meaningful. I think this applies to all industries currently. Hence the huge push for mass migration from the third world, they do not want to improve salaries or benefits for us they would rather replace us all. All part of the great replacement.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by walesregent

That happens when airlines run a decades long campaign about the diminishing level of skill required for the job and thus the diminishing pay and conditions that it deserves. We’re glorified bus drivers, aren’t we?

Cathay is a great example of that. They're doing well now aren't they?

Originally Posted by walesregent

Ironically, more people probably want to be bus drivers than pilots these days

Or train drivers!

[KAPAC]

How to convince managment your looking seriously at very good options of E3 in states , fast track command in ME with low tax , housing and free international schooling ? Cash from Saudi, or combination of above at some Asian carrier with what Asia has to offer .
When managment know your a Perth pilot , with happy family , nice lifestyle , coping ok with Australian tax and high costs of living in Australia .
Good luck ,

[CaptCloudbuster]

Originally Posted by KAPAC

How to convince managment your looking seriously at very good options of E3 in states , fast track command in ME with low tax , housing and free international schooling ? Cash from Saudi, or combination of above at some Asian carrier with what Asia has to offer .
When managment know your a Perth pilot , with happy family , nice lifestyle , coping ok with Australian tax and high costs of living in Australia .
Good luck ,

No need, Management must know something’s up when they pushed down the TT entry experience to 500hrs.

[WaterWatcher]

They are using Network as a test case for IB. Mainline is their big issue, they don’t care about network.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Exactly. Just look at the what the minimums have become across the group

[KAPAC]

500 hour pilots not going to fix this problem . Many airlines pumping through low time pilots and it’s not enough , Virgin are grappling with issues of employing low time pilots . Airlines in states are just paying cash but they can’t employ with less than 1500 hours . ME upped package , now bypassing seniority to offer DEC to get experience. China starting to offer big money again .
I spent sometime in crew room in Perth and to be honest I was shocked at roster abuses , attitude to crew . Looking around it was obvious why , ex 89’ers just wanting to top up super and pay off investment property or young captains with working wife , kids in school and no one planning on going to war .
They need to keep local experienced pilots in Perth .
Up to now it’s been easy .

[WhiteNight]

Your employer (Sydney not Perth) has intentionally set an arbitrarily low negotiations ceiling with the goal of engineering an intractable bargaining declaration. The result of this will be used as a litmus test to determine the strategy for short haul and then long haul negotiations.

Correct strategy would be to continue disrupting the business using industrial action and oppose the declaration by exposing the arbitrary and artificial nature of the negotiations.

[walesregent]

Originally Posted by WhiteNight

Correct strategy would be to continue disrupting the business using industrial action and oppose the declaration by exposing the arbitrary and artificial nature of the negotiations.

They will have the best spin doctors money can buy creating the narrative that our stop work action proves their point about intractability. Once they have decided to go ahead with it they will go all in and I would be prepared to bet the FWC will be receptive to their application. There are reasons to continue stop work action knowing this but best not to discuss those here.

No one knows how IB will pan out and it’s interesting to see a major corporation go in and effectively ask the commission to draw up an agreement for them (I’m not saying it will but that could backfire catastrophically) rather than having a largely agreed position and having the FWC decide on the few clauses in dispute. Qantas is making a pretty ballsy roll of the dice pursuing it, but it seems despite recent outcomes in court they like their chances in this sort of setting.

I won’t fully believe it until flights go uncrewed, but people are talking about leaving like never before (actual plans as well as motive) and I think a lot of people will pull that trigger irrespective of the outcome of this clusterf*ck. If qantas haven’t already killed it they’ve maimed it so badly it’s going to be a long time before it recovers.

[framer]

Qantas is making a pretty ballsy roll of the dice pursuing it, but it seems despite recent outcomes in court they like their chances in this sort of setting.

They do like there chances in these types of environment. I wonder if they simply have a deep faith born out of experience that the reciprocity bias is extremely powerful .

​​​​​​​The Reciprocity bias is the tendency to feel obligated to return a favor or kind gesture that has been given to us

That said, I don’t know what the chances are that the FWC folk involved in the Network case are members of the Chairman’s Lounge, but I’d be surprised if their boss isn’t.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by walesregent

No one knows how IB will pan out and it’s interesting to see a major corporation go in and effectively ask the commission to draw up an agreement for them (I’m not saying it will but that could backfire catastrophically) rather than having a largely agreed position and having the FWC decide on the few clauses in dispute. Qantas is making a pretty ballsy roll of the dice pursuing it, but it seems despite recent outcomes in court they like their chances in this sort of setting.

They might have some serious egg on their faces when the FW commissioners peruse a model agreement that QANTAS have within their group such as the SH EBA. The first question would be "Why are you asking us to draft an agreement for you when you already have several EBAs in force?"

[walesregent]

Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer

They might have some serious egg on their faces when the FW commissioners ask to see a model agreement that QANTAS have within their group such as the SH EBA. The first question would be "Why are you asking us to draft an agreement for you when you already have several EBAs in force?"

I can summarise what qantas’ submission will be- ‘we mainly fly Tues-Thurs so our pilots fly fewer hours thus should get paid less’. Then, in more or less the same sentence, ‘we are a 24/7 operation with early departures every day of the week so we need our crew to be available from 4am following their weekend, and be able to roster them 5 days a week and have them on standby whenever they’re not flying to meet our client requirements’. Hopefully the commission sees past the hour d’oeuvres and cushy arm chairs and tells them how full of sh*t they are.

[walesregent]

Originally Posted by framer

That said, I don’t know what the chances are that the FWC folk involved in the Network case are members of the Chairman’s Lounge, but I’d be surprised if their boss isn’t.

Very high indeed. A number of them are also notoriously pro-industry. This will be a true test of objectivity in Australia.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by walesregent

I can summarise what qantas’ submission will be- ‘we mainly fly Tues-Thurs so our pilots fly fewer hours thus should get paid less’. Then, in more or less the same sentence, ‘we are a 24/7 operation with early departures every day of the week so we need our crew to be available from 4am following their weekend, and be able to roster them 5 days a week and have them on standby whenever they’re not flying to meet our client requirements’. Hopefully the commission sees past the hour d’oeuvres and cushy arm chairs and tells them how full of sh*t they are.

And if you sign an inferior agreement, watch how quickly 'work' comes your way. Goalposts are made to be moved. They wouldn't think twice to work you to the limits of the FRMS.

[MalcolmReynolds]

Surely IB is not a default win for the company? It takes two sides to agree and two sides to cause IB. FWC will have to look at both sides.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Originally Posted by framer

That said, I don’t know what the chances are that the FWC folk involved in the Network case are members of the Chairman’s Lounge, but I’d be surprised if their boss isn’t.

I think the amount of scrutiny the members of the lounge would be under will make any commissioners involved in this case somewhat nervous of being publicly outed.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Originally Posted by walesregent

I can summarise what qantas’ submission will be- ‘we mainly fly Tues-Thurs so our pilots fly fewer hours thus should get paid less’. Then, in more or less the same sentence, ‘we are a 24/7 operation with early departures every day of the week so we need our crew to be available from 4am following their weekend, and be able to roster them 5 days a week and have them on standby whenever they’re not flying to meet our client requirements’. Hopefully the commission sees past the hour d’oeuvres and cushy arm chairs and tells them how full of sh*t they are.

If qantas wants to claim the cruisy lifestyle as an excuse for crappy pay, they won’t be too unhappy about locking in that lifestyle via a clause limiting them from working the pilots beyond low hours, weekday only flying.

[walesregent]

Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer

And if you sign an inferior agreement, watch how quickly 'work' comes your way. Goalposts are made to be moved. They wouldn't think twice to work you to the limits of the FRMS.

Some very badly kept secrets about Network RPT expanding to Adelaide and Hobart (and possibly more east coast destinations) and taking over Mineral Resources east coast FIFO flights have been in high circulation for a long time now. The work will change if the company gets their way on the contract. Crewing those flights on the other hand…

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Originally Posted by walesregent

Some very badly kept secrets about Network RPT expanding to Adelaide and Hobart (and possibly more east coast destinations) and taking over Mineral Resources east coast FIFO flights have been in high circulation for a long time now. The work will change if the company gets their way on the contract. Crewing those flights on the other hand…

This is an important factor. Ask any NJS pilot what it’s like to go from a relatively relaxed lifestyle job to a soon-to-be short/medium haul international operation on crappy, and declining conditions. Network is next on their list of operations to morph into something it was never suppose to be.

Edit: the so called win they had with NJS pilots has returned to bite them. I have it on good authority that they are now unable to find pilots who are willing to do the A220 endorsement due to the decline in conditions they will have to endure for the privilege of flying a new jet. They held a gun to NJS pilots heads and it appears it backfired. I believe the rest are planning to take the endorsement and see where it will take them elsewhere.