Project Sunrise
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Buried deep within Coward street are years of crew sick leave data that the hope no one asks about.
You can't compare manufacturer's "seating capacity" with actual airline capacity. The A350=1000 would have a lot less seats in QF config.
The last of the B747's have 364 seats (N config) because of large premium sections. There used to be "2 class" B744's with 412 seats which were very good revenue makers on the routes that they were deployed.
The last of the B747's have 364 seats (N config) because of large premium sections. There used to be "2 class" B744's with 412 seats which were very good revenue makers on the routes that they were deployed.
No benefit for the Pilots in Project Sunrise as it currently stands.
The Webinars unveiled nothing of a real or positive outcome for Pilots.
It’s becoming obvious that these aircraft will quickly replace the A380 once the economy of scale is reached and the Project Sunrise aircraft penetrate the traditional routes, destinations, and markets.
Are Jamie Maree, Krusty34 and TrooBeliver company elements on this site? I agree with Asturiass56, it might be better if you just positioned your point of view rather than attack other points of view.
Dunda certainly nailed the feeling amongst Pilots. A very substandard offer in regards to pilot conditions and I might add pay.
No one I know is even slightly interested at this time in the current unpersuasive offers in Project Sunrise and the more this plays out the less trusting we are all becoming of the company panel.
The Webinars unveiled nothing of a real or positive outcome for Pilots.
It’s becoming obvious that these aircraft will quickly replace the A380 once the economy of scale is reached and the Project Sunrise aircraft penetrate the traditional routes, destinations, and markets.
Are Jamie Maree, Krusty34 and TrooBeliver company elements on this site? I agree with Asturiass56, it might be better if you just positioned your point of view rather than attack other points of view.
Dunda certainly nailed the feeling amongst Pilots. A very substandard offer in regards to pilot conditions and I might add pay.
No one I know is even slightly interested at this time in the current unpersuasive offers in Project Sunrise and the more this plays out the less trusting we are all becoming of the company panel.
You crack me up Capt!
In a totally unrelated observation; The flight crew complement was interesting, given the relative statistical makeup of Qantas pilots. One wonders if the small man hand picked his preferred version of a cockpit, or a perfect world.
Good on him if so ! Social engineering is fun, and a proven path to safety.
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The Project Sunrise webinar stated that if the A350 is chosen for Ultra Long Range flying the intermix will leave one group of Pilots on an A330 Division with an intermix of A350/A330 Pilots, Multi-Variant Flying (MVF) on the other division.
How does that work? What type of Flying is the A330 being left with (all Domestic?)
If the B777 is chosen that will intermix with B787 flying.
Some A330 aircraft are nearing the end of life and will need replacement in a few years. Avoiding an Ansett and having two similar aircraft doing the same task one could assume that the B787 will replace the A330?
The economy of scale here may see a reduction in current destinations as the ULR flying increases and if such ULR flight operations do prove successful with the public.
Therefore, the crewing numbers currently quoted may note be true in the long-term.
Yes, certainly the A350 or B777 would eventually replace the A380!
This whole concept raises more and more questions without any clear explanation or answers coming forth.
I don’t see rushing this Project is in any of the Pilots interest.
How does that work? What type of Flying is the A330 being left with (all Domestic?)
If the B777 is chosen that will intermix with B787 flying.
Some A330 aircraft are nearing the end of life and will need replacement in a few years. Avoiding an Ansett and having two similar aircraft doing the same task one could assume that the B787 will replace the A330?
The economy of scale here may see a reduction in current destinations as the ULR flying increases and if such ULR flight operations do prove successful with the public.
Therefore, the crewing numbers currently quoted may note be true in the long-term.
Yes, certainly the A350 or B777 would eventually replace the A380!
This whole concept raises more and more questions without any clear explanation or answers coming forth.
I don’t see rushing this Project is in any of the Pilots interest.
Liked this opinion piece in today's AFR, likely not far off the mark...
The latest leg of Qantas’ Project Sunrise publicity orgy touched down at Mascot on Friday, its non-stop “research flight” from Heathrow met with the mania (and hyperbole) of a bona fide Apollo mission.
With the outsized marketing tactics its master franchise is globally famous for, parvenu competitor Virgin Australia had launched its new Brisbane-Haneda service on Thursday. Virgin Group’s Sir Richard Branson threw in his typical spoiler, promising “we’re seriously going to look at” giving Qantas “a run for their money” on the incipient (non-stop) London-Sydney route. Which they're not and never will.
But the next day, feet on the ground for the first time in 19 hours and 19 minutes, a “not amused” Alan Joyce flashed his canines and prepped a Tallaght-style knuckle show. “I don’t think Virgin can do it. I think we will kill them on this one if we had to.” Got that? Richard Branson might be a knight, but Alan Joyce (AC) is a living saint.
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce front and centre at the arrival of the Project Sunrise "research flight" non-stop from London. Chairman Richard Goyder stands in the background. AAP
Quickly, the Qantas chief shifted tone from combative to dismissive. “I think Richard is [just] generating publicity …”
And while that is most certainly true, it’s also a sublime slice of hypocrisy coming from Joyce. For what was his jolly from London (and last month’s from New York) if not an extravagant PR stunt?
Thanks to these “research flights” and their related rumpus, the vast preponderance of the travelling public – here and abroad – now labours under the misapprehension that from 2023, Qantas will fly this plane, the Boeing 787-9, commercially and non-stop from Sydney to Heathrow and JFK.
Barely mentioned was the salient fact that 787s cannot fly that far with more than 50 passengers, let alone 250 souls and several pallets of cargo. Nor did we hear that the planes which could, the 777-8X and the Airbus A350-1000ULR (neither of which Qantas has even ordered yet), haven’t even been built yet, let alone left the ground. Only in August, Boeing suspended all 777-8X development and postponed its 2022 entry into service.
Qantas Group chief executive Alan Joyce, centre, with flight deck crew in London. Captain Helen Trenerry, second from right, will command the historic London-Sydney flight.
RELATED
Qantas eyes business class as it readies London-Sydney flight
For some context, Qantas ordered the 787 in 2005, for delivery in 2008. Jetstar got its first in 2013, followed by Qantas in 2017, a full 12 years later. Mark our words: pigs will fly over the runway at Badgerys Creek before Qantas launches Sunrise flights in 2023.
So just who’s in the business of wanton publicity? In March, Qantas boasted it “generated over $100 million in free publicity” around the 2018 launch of its Perth-London route (we were on the 787 delivery flight in October 2017). That’s one they sell actual tickets on; as in, this year.
Addicted to the cheap acclaim, Joyce and his squad embarked on their blitzkrieg sequel, but with nothing to actually sell. And almost nobody noticed, or cared.
Still unquenched denouncing Branson’s black kettle, Joyce even reckoned “he will find it very difficult to compete against us because … we’ve got this expertise at long-haul flying that no other airline in the world has”.
With the outsized marketing tactics its master franchise is globally famous for, parvenu competitor Virgin Australia had launched its new Brisbane-Haneda service on Thursday. Virgin Group’s Sir Richard Branson threw in his typical spoiler, promising “we’re seriously going to look at” giving Qantas “a run for their money” on the incipient (non-stop) London-Sydney route. Which they're not and never will.
But the next day, feet on the ground for the first time in 19 hours and 19 minutes, a “not amused” Alan Joyce flashed his canines and prepped a Tallaght-style knuckle show. “I don’t think Virgin can do it. I think we will kill them on this one if we had to.” Got that? Richard Branson might be a knight, but Alan Joyce (AC) is a living saint.
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce front and centre at the arrival of the Project Sunrise "research flight" non-stop from London. Chairman Richard Goyder stands in the background. AAP
Quickly, the Qantas chief shifted tone from combative to dismissive. “I think Richard is [just] generating publicity …”
And while that is most certainly true, it’s also a sublime slice of hypocrisy coming from Joyce. For what was his jolly from London (and last month’s from New York) if not an extravagant PR stunt?
Thanks to these “research flights” and their related rumpus, the vast preponderance of the travelling public – here and abroad – now labours under the misapprehension that from 2023, Qantas will fly this plane, the Boeing 787-9, commercially and non-stop from Sydney to Heathrow and JFK.
Barely mentioned was the salient fact that 787s cannot fly that far with more than 50 passengers, let alone 250 souls and several pallets of cargo. Nor did we hear that the planes which could, the 777-8X and the Airbus A350-1000ULR (neither of which Qantas has even ordered yet), haven’t even been built yet, let alone left the ground. Only in August, Boeing suspended all 777-8X development and postponed its 2022 entry into service.
Qantas Group chief executive Alan Joyce, centre, with flight deck crew in London. Captain Helen Trenerry, second from right, will command the historic London-Sydney flight.
RELATED
Qantas eyes business class as it readies London-Sydney flight
For some context, Qantas ordered the 787 in 2005, for delivery in 2008. Jetstar got its first in 2013, followed by Qantas in 2017, a full 12 years later. Mark our words: pigs will fly over the runway at Badgerys Creek before Qantas launches Sunrise flights in 2023.
So just who’s in the business of wanton publicity? In March, Qantas boasted it “generated over $100 million in free publicity” around the 2018 launch of its Perth-London route (we were on the 787 delivery flight in October 2017). That’s one they sell actual tickets on; as in, this year.
Addicted to the cheap acclaim, Joyce and his squad embarked on their blitzkrieg sequel, but with nothing to actually sell. And almost nobody noticed, or cared.
Still unquenched denouncing Branson’s black kettle, Joyce even reckoned “he will find it very difficult to compete against us because … we’ve got this expertise at long-haul flying that no other airline in the world has”.
CC, thanks for the info from the webinar.
You’re right about the older A330’s. They’ll need imminent replacement over the next few years.
What will do their flying?
Remember Q got them as a deal with the ‘380!
What if Q got a deal with the A350? A330 neo perhaps? A321neo? Who knows but you’re right about end of life for a handful of Q’s A330’s.
Also a question for those smarter than me.
Doesn’t an agreement T&C’s for new aircraft only have to be negotiated if the aircraft will arrive within the term of the next EA?
Quote from AJ
This EA runs from mid 2019 to mid 2022?
You’re right about the older A330’s. They’ll need imminent replacement over the next few years.
What will do their flying?
Remember Q got them as a deal with the ‘380!
What if Q got a deal with the A350? A330 neo perhaps? A321neo? Who knows but you’re right about end of life for a handful of Q’s A330’s.
Also a question for those smarter than me.
Doesn’t an agreement T&C’s for new aircraft only have to be negotiated if the aircraft will arrive within the term of the next EA?
Quote from AJ
"The plan we're working towards is making a decision on the business case by the end of this year," he says. "And it will likely be [launched] from 2023 when the aircraft are available."
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CC, thanks for the info from the webinar.
You’re right about the older A330’s. They’ll need imminent replacement over the next few years.
What will do their flying?
Remember Q got them as a deal with the ‘380!
What if Q got a deal with the A350? A330 neo perhaps? A321neo? Who knows but you’re right about end of life for a handful of Q’s A330’s.
Also a question for those smarter than me.
Doesn’t an agreement T&C’s for new aircraft only have to be negotiated if the aircraft will arrive within the term of the next EA?
Quote from AJ
This EA runs from mid 2019 to mid 2022?
You’re right about the older A330’s. They’ll need imminent replacement over the next few years.
What will do their flying?
Remember Q got them as a deal with the ‘380!
What if Q got a deal with the A350? A330 neo perhaps? A321neo? Who knows but you’re right about end of life for a handful of Q’s A330’s.
Also a question for those smarter than me.
Doesn’t an agreement T&C’s for new aircraft only have to be negotiated if the aircraft will arrive within the term of the next EA?
Quote from AJ
This EA runs from mid 2019 to mid 2022?
As for the EA, that might be technically correct, but QF is clearly keen to have a high level of certainty about the T&C's before ordering the plane - the 2019-22 EA would set a benchmark for the 2022-25 EA.
Hi SA,
In my limited experience with negotiations, wouldn’t that put the ball in AIPA’s court?
Especially, since it would appear, no one seems to want to do that type of flying anyway?
Come the end of the year with AJ’s self imposed deadline, AIPA’s media announcement states a pilot agreement is not required until the next EA and at least six months before it’s introduction.
As has been stated by AIPA, an aircraft purchase is solely the responsibility of executive management.
As for the EA, that might be technically correct, but QF is clearly keen to have a high level of certainty about the T&C's before ordering the plane - the 2019-22 EA would set a benchmark for the 2022-25 EA.
Especially, since it would appear, no one seems to want to do that type of flying anyway?
Come the end of the year with AJ’s self imposed deadline, AIPA’s media announcement states a pilot agreement is not required until the next EA and at least six months before it’s introduction.
As has been stated by AIPA, an aircraft purchase is solely the responsibility of executive management.
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Sunrise is an A380 Replacement. It’s Not growth.
I think I can find about 40 references to the word “growth” in the last EA with regard to the 787s.
Most of them came from the ex AIPA president Mr Safe, whom clearly had the interests of pilots as his foremost concern. Just after the ink was dry on the “growth” type, he went to the company to negotiate against the very pilots he claimed to represent. I’ll leave others to comment on the ethics of such a move.
Whomever Keg is was also adamant that he’d spoken to management and was told that Qantas would get at least 50 787s. He’s now got his panties in a twist and is trying to claim retirements, deaths, high divisors with 6 aircraft yet to be replaced and purporting those numbers to demonstrate “growth”.
At some point 14 787s minus 14 747s= 0
The math is not complex. But I suppose some people can also passionately believe in things that have no proof of existence.
14-14 equals zero , won’t ever convince a few true believers.
Both the chief pilot and executive have clarified this week that the 787 was a replacement type for the 747.
Narendra did let the cat out of the bag that Sunrise would be an A380 replacement at the dial in and many heard it. Oops!!
No one from management would give any remote assurances that Sunrise would not be an A380 replacement.
Its been done to death but Few pilots are interested in doing 22 hours at night in an airplane with the worst of jet lag With a ****ty crew rest, trying to share the toilets with passengers. At the end having to also wait for your bags, cabin crew, clear customs, Sit on a bus in traffic and wait for a hotel room to be ready about 25 hours after you signed on. That’s going to lose its novelty very quickly.
Not a vote winner if pilots are not going to get a proper contract to fly it, that does not acknowledge how extreme the duties are. Your doing a dangerous job for your body/health without adequate compensation nor conditions that protect you from that extreme duty.
Pilots are personally paying for the privilege of doing much ****tier flying.
Its a replacement type not a growth type. They can say it all they want but Qantas have form and a proven history on this. And that form says it’s a replacement. Are people going to fall for an exact replica of the same myth for a second time? Especially when the share price is nearing all time highs and bonuses and profits are fat, it’s unreasonable to rob from pilots to make them do much harder work.
Two lots of different simulators, route checks and EPs exams/inquisitions is reason enough to say not interested.
Most of them came from the ex AIPA president Mr Safe, whom clearly had the interests of pilots as his foremost concern. Just after the ink was dry on the “growth” type, he went to the company to negotiate against the very pilots he claimed to represent. I’ll leave others to comment on the ethics of such a move.
Whomever Keg is was also adamant that he’d spoken to management and was told that Qantas would get at least 50 787s. He’s now got his panties in a twist and is trying to claim retirements, deaths, high divisors with 6 aircraft yet to be replaced and purporting those numbers to demonstrate “growth”.
At some point 14 787s minus 14 747s= 0
The math is not complex. But I suppose some people can also passionately believe in things that have no proof of existence.
14-14 equals zero , won’t ever convince a few true believers.
Both the chief pilot and executive have clarified this week that the 787 was a replacement type for the 747.
Narendra did let the cat out of the bag that Sunrise would be an A380 replacement at the dial in and many heard it. Oops!!
No one from management would give any remote assurances that Sunrise would not be an A380 replacement.
Its been done to death but Few pilots are interested in doing 22 hours at night in an airplane with the worst of jet lag With a ****ty crew rest, trying to share the toilets with passengers. At the end having to also wait for your bags, cabin crew, clear customs, Sit on a bus in traffic and wait for a hotel room to be ready about 25 hours after you signed on. That’s going to lose its novelty very quickly.
Not a vote winner if pilots are not going to get a proper contract to fly it, that does not acknowledge how extreme the duties are. Your doing a dangerous job for your body/health without adequate compensation nor conditions that protect you from that extreme duty.
Pilots are personally paying for the privilege of doing much ****tier flying.
Its a replacement type not a growth type. They can say it all they want but Qantas have form and a proven history on this. And that form says it’s a replacement. Are people going to fall for an exact replica of the same myth for a second time? Especially when the share price is nearing all time highs and bonuses and profits are fat, it’s unreasonable to rob from pilots to make them do much harder work.
Two lots of different simulators, route checks and EPs exams/inquisitions is reason enough to say not interested.
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Hi SA,
In my limited experience with negotiations, wouldn’t that put the ball in AIPA’s court?
Especially, since it would appear, no one seems to want to do that type of flying anyway?
Come the end of the year with AJ’s self imposed deadline, AIPA’s media announcement states a pilot agreement is not required until the next EA and at least six months before it’s introduction.
As has been stated by AIPA, an aircraft purchase is solely the responsibility of executive management.
In my limited experience with negotiations, wouldn’t that put the ball in AIPA’s court?
Especially, since it would appear, no one seems to want to do that type of flying anyway?
Come the end of the year with AJ’s self imposed deadline, AIPA’s media announcement states a pilot agreement is not required until the next EA and at least six months before it’s introduction.
As has been stated by AIPA, an aircraft purchase is solely the responsibility of executive management.
But, ultimately, I think technical arguments about whether or not the EA is strictly necessary are a bit academic either way. My sense is that AIPA and pilots are at least happy to negotiate on that basis. Whether they'll reach an agreement, with what QF is pitching is a different question...!
Also, AIPA would have them over a barrel if they ordered a new type and only started negotiations a few months before delivery! "So, you want that plane you ordered to fly, hey...?"
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I do not think pilots will be fooled this time with project Sunset. It is not growth as Narendra let slip but a replacement for the A380.
Alan can find every reason to pay himself 24 million in a second without hesitation. Andrew David 9 million. Our chief pilot close to 1 million.
Alan's 100 year Qantas celebration will be close to a 100 million dollar haul in total compensation since his joining.
Sunrise provides massive fare premiums to Qantas and huge savings if the multi variant is accepted. Its a lot more workload for pilots.
The duties are far more extreme. Its going to test the limits of human fatigue as the longest flights in the world. If it were not extreme it would not need "research" flights, headbands and pee tests.
Joyce pays himself an exceptionally high premium. As does Andrew David, the executive and the chief pilot. Passengers will pay it for Sunrise and Joyce has promised this.
Pilots are no less worthy of a premium for this. Currently Pilots are being asked to crowdfund sunrise out of their pockets, working even harder, with no guarantees its nothing but a replacement type. Pilots are not responsible for Sunrise being a make or break despite the desperate and misleading spin.What other airline has a pilot EA as the hurdle for ordering replacements. None!
It should not cost them pay nor their Long term health.
Alan can find every reason to pay himself 24 million in a second without hesitation. Andrew David 9 million. Our chief pilot close to 1 million.
Alan's 100 year Qantas celebration will be close to a 100 million dollar haul in total compensation since his joining.
Sunrise provides massive fare premiums to Qantas and huge savings if the multi variant is accepted. Its a lot more workload for pilots.
The duties are far more extreme. Its going to test the limits of human fatigue as the longest flights in the world. If it were not extreme it would not need "research" flights, headbands and pee tests.
Joyce pays himself an exceptionally high premium. As does Andrew David, the executive and the chief pilot. Passengers will pay it for Sunrise and Joyce has promised this.
Pilots are no less worthy of a premium for this. Currently Pilots are being asked to crowdfund sunrise out of their pockets, working even harder, with no guarantees its nothing but a replacement type. Pilots are not responsible for Sunrise being a make or break despite the desperate and misleading spin.What other airline has a pilot EA as the hurdle for ordering replacements. None!
It should not cost them pay nor their Long term health.
Hi SA again,
Thats exactly what I was suggesting.
Technical or not it is the EA.
I remember a former Fleet Manager saying the line, “It’s not me it’s the award”.
Perhaps that’s what the Qantas pilots should be saying?
I think Q needs to understand that there is no motivation for the pilots to do this.
It was the modus operandi for JQ at the start when the only thing they could offer them was a shiny new jet. Now look at the calm at JQ with stagnate movement?
Q really need to throw a few more carrots at this because I haven’t met one who wants to fly it!
Throw in the fact that this aircraft will fly shorter routes and Q has let slip it’s a possible A380 replacement then it will be a big ask to get this over the line by Christmas.
The final offer will have to be good for a “heads of agreement” because Q can’t risk a no vote in Feb.
Also, AIPA would have them over a barrel if they ordered a new type and only started negotiations a few months before delivery! "So, you want that plane you ordered to fly, hey...?"
Technical or not it is the EA.
I remember a former Fleet Manager saying the line, “It’s not me it’s the award”.
Perhaps that’s what the Qantas pilots should be saying?
I think Q needs to understand that there is no motivation for the pilots to do this.
It was the modus operandi for JQ at the start when the only thing they could offer them was a shiny new jet. Now look at the calm at JQ with stagnate movement?
Q really need to throw a few more carrots at this because I haven’t met one who wants to fly it!
Throw in the fact that this aircraft will fly shorter routes and Q has let slip it’s a possible A380 replacement then it will be a big ask to get this over the line by Christmas.
The final offer will have to be good for a “heads of agreement” because Q can’t risk a no vote in Feb.
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It is most definitely a different vibe this time. I’ve not met one person excited, or even faintly interested in what Dick and his mates have to say at their webinars. They seem to be causing more harm than anything else. Nobody is frightened.
I can’t see anything happening. AIPA’s email today pretty much confirms that they aren’t interested either. I wonder what Alan will do for his 100 year celebration without his vanity project. Such is life.
I can’t see anything happening. AIPA’s email today pretty much confirms that they aren’t interested either. I wonder what Alan will do for his 100 year celebration without his vanity project. Such is life.