Jetstar EBA 2019
PIA is such a destructive tool. Costs the employer money. Costs the employees jobs. Disrupts the very customers that keep the company alive and effectively pay the employees wages. Its a lose - lose situation.
The real question is, how bad are the negotiators that they have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level? It really is a damming for the Union negotiators. A good negotiator would have found the middle ground without the need for PIA. How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
The real question is, how bad are the negotiators that they have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level? It really is a damming for the Union negotiators. A good negotiator would have found the middle ground without the need for PIA. How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
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Take the emotions out of this. You have to find the middle ground. Thats the only way out of this.
And I’m telling you PIA is the result of there been no middle ground. The only way to get that is to roll the dice with fair work.
Are Jetstar angles paid the same as their qf counterparts
?
?
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I’m over the whole thing. We threatened PIA to try and get the company to negotiate properly (like we did successfully in 2015) and it has had the opposite effect. What are we fighting for exactly now? The union has agreed to 3%. We’re essentially arguing over the costing of a minimum daily credit. I’d sign the current EBA plus 3 per cent increases tomorrow just to have this disaster behind me.
To agree to the companies demands without moving their original bargaining position a millimeter would be a catastrophic failure, driven by nothing more than irrational fear. If we signed on because of the cynical anti-pilot media campaign currently being undertaken, the result would be an executive team that would yet again pay themselves millions as a reward for keeping us to 3%, whilst sitting back laughing around the boardroom as the hardest working most productive narrowbody pilots in the airline industry, ones who operate the largest aircraft, fly the most passengers, the most sectors with the least days off do it all for the least pay, by some margin!
You will be operating 8.5 hour medium haul international sectors with wide body passenger loads for something not that far away from regional turboprop pay, and we would have nobody to blame but ourselves.
All of this in the face of a pay freeze where the amount saved was simply directed straight into the executive teams pockets. And they are looking to do it again.
I'd ask that you speak to the union, to the senior pilots and get an understanding of what we are driving towards. Our demands aren't outrageous. We're not asking to be paid head and shoulders above everyone else (like the executive team are!), we're simply asking to join our peers who for the most part do less than us anyway (no disrespect to them intended!). Independent costing of our claims show it would make a difference of less than a dollar a ticket. To say it threatens the business model is a fallacy. It would however threaten some significant bonuses being promised to key players if they can keep us to within this target amount.
Take a little short term pain, look to the long term. So much to play for and the real risk to you is negligible.
Last edited by Paddleboat; 17th Dec 2019 at 03:05.
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The real question is, how bad are the negotiators that they have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level? It really is a damming for the Union negotiators. A good negotiator would have found the middle ground without the need for PIA. How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
The negotiators can't be held to account when the company from the outset have simply drawn a line in the sand at a negligible figure that would leave the most productive and hard working narrowbody pilots in the nation and country mile behind their peers. Absolutely no opportunity for negotiation was entertained. Simply 'take it or leave it'. That isn't a failure of negotiation, but a refusal to capitulate and one that the pilot body has no intention of making.
Originally Posted by QF Management
How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Put another way, when you have to finance a media campaign to target a group with repeated, demonstrable untruths in an effort to drive public sentiment, are you really negotiating in good faith? I put it to you that you'd have more luck negotiating navigation with a lighthouse.
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I can understand your frustration, but I'd ask you to look at the bigger picture and consider the alternative.
To agree to the companies demands without moving their original bargaining position a millimeter would be a catastrophic failure, driven by nothing more than irrational fear. If we signed on because of the cynical anti-pilot media campaign currently being undertaken, the result would be an executive team that would yet again pay themselves millions as a reward for keeping us to 3%, whilst sitting back laughing around the boardroom as the hardest working most productive narrowbody pilots in the airline industry, ones who operate the largest aircraft, fly the most passengers, the most sectors with the least days off do it all for the least pay, by some margin!
You will be operating 8.5 hour medium haul international sectors with wide body passenger loads for something not that far away from regional turboprop pay, and we would have nobody to blame but ourselves.
All of this in the face of a pay freeze where the amount saved was simply directed straight into the executive teams pockets. And they are looking to do it again.
I'd ask that you speak to the union, to the senior pilots and get an understanding of what we are driving towards. Our demands aren't outrageous. We're not asking to be paid head and shoulders above everyone else (like the executive team are!), we're simply asking to join our peers who for the most part do less than us anyway (no disrespect to them intended!). Independent costing of our claims show it would make a difference of less than a dollar a ticket. To say it threatens the business model is a fallacy. It would however threaten some significant bonus's being promised to key players if they can keep us to within this target amount.
Take a little short term pain, look to the long term. So much to play for a the real risk to you is negligible.
To agree to the companies demands without moving their original bargaining position a millimeter would be a catastrophic failure, driven by nothing more than irrational fear. If we signed on because of the cynical anti-pilot media campaign currently being undertaken, the result would be an executive team that would yet again pay themselves millions as a reward for keeping us to 3%, whilst sitting back laughing around the boardroom as the hardest working most productive narrowbody pilots in the airline industry, ones who operate the largest aircraft, fly the most passengers, the most sectors with the least days off do it all for the least pay, by some margin!
You will be operating 8.5 hour medium haul international sectors with wide body passenger loads for something not that far away from regional turboprop pay, and we would have nobody to blame but ourselves.
All of this in the face of a pay freeze where the amount saved was simply directed straight into the executive teams pockets. And they are looking to do it again.
I'd ask that you speak to the union, to the senior pilots and get an understanding of what we are driving towards. Our demands aren't outrageous. We're not asking to be paid head and shoulders above everyone else (like the executive team are!), we're simply asking to join our peers who for the most part do less than us anyway (no disrespect to them intended!). Independent costing of our claims show it would make a difference of less than a dollar a ticket. To say it threatens the business model is a fallacy. It would however threaten some significant bonus's being promised to key players if they can keep us to within this target amount.
Take a little short term pain, look to the long term. So much to play for a the real risk to you is negligible.
ill take that on board, thank you
I hope like hell you people succeed, you are treated with contempt and like second class citizens. Less than a $1 a seat FFS.
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PIA is such a destructive tool. Costs the employer money. Costs the employees jobs. Disrupts the very customers that keep the company alive and effectively pay the employees wages. Its a lose - lose situation.
The real question is, how bad are the negotiators that they have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level? It really is a damming for the Union negotiators. A good negotiator would have found the middle ground without the need for PIA. How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
The real question is, how bad are the negotiators that they have allowed the situation to deteriorate to this level? It really is a damming for the Union negotiators. A good negotiator would have found the middle ground without the need for PIA. How bad are the negotiators that they have set the expectations of a deal on their side at a level that cannot be achieved?
Terrible terrible negotiation skills.
No one is going to win here.
Dont let commonsense get in the way of your emotional outbursts.....lol
Negotiations are a two way street, you give a little, I give a little. Every EA negotiations with the QF Group is now "cost neutral"..in other words, as we have seen with QF SH and Jetstar, is that the Company seeks a further eroding of T&C's, seeking (or gouging) productivity increase whilst giving the respective pilots...nothing.
After seeing the prolific waste of Capital Expenditure in Red Q, Jetstar Asia (how much profit? What about ROIC?), Jetstar Pacific, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Hong Kong (northwards of $400 million, wasn't it?), the grounding of mainline ($250 million plus) we have had enough. Those on the line face the consequences of you cost cutting of front line staff (how is the OTP going? Not well, is it?) whilst management numbers..or should I say, the line for coffee..increases to infinity...
You must think we are stupid to believe in the propaganda, non-core promises and out right lies (300 plus for a Captain) that is generated daily from Coward St. It may work to those on the Koolaid at the Campus, but those in the real world see it for what it is...
Please, keep you trolling off here
....and to the men and women at JQ, best of luck...
PIA limitations
Been reading that part of your PIA actions are not answering phones & not coming to work on days off.
Why arent u doing that without PIA anyway??
All in support of u guys but really,the company dont own you & if you continue to let them own you well hate to say it but you are walking right into their trap.
Days off are exactly that.time for yourself,time for your family & time for a beer-sorry cant fly,im over zero alcohol level.
Try it,its very satisfying.
Why arent u doing that without PIA anyway??
All in support of u guys but really,the company dont own you & if you continue to let them own you well hate to say it but you are walking right into their trap.
Days off are exactly that.time for yourself,time for your family & time for a beer-sorry cant fly,im over zero alcohol level.
Try it,its very satisfying.
Because sadly dispite regularly complaining about rosters and fatigue a good proportion of the pilot group will sell rest for money and then wonder why the company doesn’t take us seriously. I pushed last EBA round to make one of our claims ‘WDO = $0’, it wasn’t a popular idea! I don’t understand why you should be paid for a day off, if you want to fly then do it for overtime or the love of it. As said above I have never answered my phone for a work call on my day off, why would I, I actually enjoy my time off and would like more of it, don’t need PIA for that. Imagine if there was no incentive for WDO’s and the company actually had to provide adequate standby coverage with appropriate numbers of pilots. As I say to the FO’s, ‘every time you fly with a Captain in a day off ask them why they are preventing more upgrades by covering a shortage’.
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Because sadly dispite regularly complaining about rosters and fatigue a good proportion of the pilot group will sell rest for money and then wonder why the company doesn’t take us seriously. I pushed last EBA round to make one of our claims ‘WDO = $0’, it wasn’t a popular idea! I don’t understand why you should be paid for a day off, if you want to fly then do it for overtime or the love of it. As said above I have never answered my phone for a work call on my day off, why would I, I actually enjoy my time off and would like more of it, don’t need PIA for that. Imagine if there was no incentive for WDO’s and the company actually had to provide adequate standby coverage with appropriate numbers of pilots. As I say to the FO’s, ‘every time you fly with a Captain in a day off ask them why they are preventing more upgrades by covering a shortage’.
Aggravating Captains to prove a point however, not so much.
I’m with Ollie on WDO payments.
There will always be people who really really want the money and will happily bank it. The Operations staff know exactly who they are and call them up any time they need someone. The problem with this is that it allows an Airline to operate with ( for example) 500 pilots when the number they actually need to cover reserves, annual leave and training requirements is ( for example) 550 pilots. That means that everyone suffers roster instability, everyone spends less time with their families, everyone has to manage their fatigue levels more assertively, everyone loses except the executives and shareholders.
0$ for WDO is something we should aim for in all Airlines.
To the Jetstar pilots, good work, stick together, don’t read the papers.
There will always be people who really really want the money and will happily bank it. The Operations staff know exactly who they are and call them up any time they need someone. The problem with this is that it allows an Airline to operate with ( for example) 500 pilots when the number they actually need to cover reserves, annual leave and training requirements is ( for example) 550 pilots. That means that everyone suffers roster instability, everyone spends less time with their families, everyone has to manage their fatigue levels more assertively, everyone loses except the executives and shareholders.
0$ for WDO is something we should aim for in all Airlines.
To the Jetstar pilots, good work, stick together, don’t read the papers.
Been reading that part of your PIA actions are not answering phones & not coming to work on days off.
Why arent u doing that without PIA anyway??
All in support of u guys but really,the company dont own you & if you continue to let them own you well hate to say it but you are walking right into their trap.
Days off are exactly that.time for yourself,time for your family & time for a beer-sorry cant fly,im over zero alcohol level.
Try it,its very satisfying.
Why arent u doing that without PIA anyway??
All in support of u guys but really,the company dont own you & if you continue to let them own you well hate to say it but you are walking right into their trap.
Days off are exactly that.time for yourself,time for your family & time for a beer-sorry cant fly,im over zero alcohol level.
Try it,its very satisfying.
The AFAP are playing with a straight bat, and rightly so.
Wow, management trolling at it's worst.
Negotiations are a two way street, you give a little, I give a little. Every EA negotiations with the QF Group is now "cost neutral"..in other words, as we have seen with QF SH and Jetstar, is that the Company seeks a further eroding of T&C's, seeking (or gouging) productivity increase whilst giving the respective pilots...nothing.
After seeing the prolific waste of Capital Expenditure in Red Q, Jetstar Asia (how much profit? What about ROIC?), Jetstar Pacific, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Hong Kong (northwards of $400 million, wasn't it?), the grounding of mainline ($250 million plus) we have had enough. Those on the line face the consequences of you cost cutting of front line staff (how is the OTP going? Not well, is it?) whilst management numbers..or should I say, the line for coffee..increases to infinity...
You must think we are stupid to believe in the propaganda, non-core promises and out right lies (300 plus for a Captain) that is generated daily from Coward St. It may work to those on the Koolaid at the Campus, but those in the real world see it for what it is...
Please, keep you trolling off here
....and to the men and women at JQ, best of luck...
Negotiations are a two way street, you give a little, I give a little. Every EA negotiations with the QF Group is now "cost neutral"..in other words, as we have seen with QF SH and Jetstar, is that the Company seeks a further eroding of T&C's, seeking (or gouging) productivity increase whilst giving the respective pilots...nothing.
After seeing the prolific waste of Capital Expenditure in Red Q, Jetstar Asia (how much profit? What about ROIC?), Jetstar Pacific, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Hong Kong (northwards of $400 million, wasn't it?), the grounding of mainline ($250 million plus) we have had enough. Those on the line face the consequences of you cost cutting of front line staff (how is the OTP going? Not well, is it?) whilst management numbers..or should I say, the line for coffee..increases to infinity...
You must think we are stupid to believe in the propaganda, non-core promises and out right lies (300 plus for a Captain) that is generated daily from Coward St. It may work to those on the Koolaid at the Campus, but those in the real world see it for what it is...
Please, keep you trolling off here
....and to the men and women at JQ, best of luck...
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let’s remove the WDO clause please
Thats the point - for a union not in the fight (even though they could be, and chose not to), there's a hell of a lot of clearly AIPA members dishing out advice about how AFAP are wrong and its going to cost you your job etc..
The regular Qantas/Jetstar Angels don't even have to lift a finger - they just let the AIPA QF group pilots doom and gloom those taking Protected action.
The regular Qantas/Jetstar Angels don't even have to lift a finger - they just let the AIPA QF group pilots doom and gloom those taking Protected action.
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Really? Where? You guys are a bunch of conspiratorial lunatics. Other than AIPA advising it's members not to do something stupid that could cost them their career, I've heard nothing else even remotely concerning the JQ PIA. I doubt they even care. I don't. I wish you good luck, but quite frankly, I don't care.
