QANTAS long haul EBA
Thread Starter
We bicker and squabble but nothing changes, it will be a shambles. The assignment of leave is an option when the divisor reaches 160 hours however it is only 1 of the options and a RIN can take place without the assignment of leave. As the 747 has operated for the last 3 years on the good will of the crew the assignment of leave would be the ultimate spit in the face.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Sydney Australia
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We bicker and squabble but nothing changes, it will be a shambles. The assignment of leave is an option when the divisor reaches 160 hours however it is only 1 of the options and a RIN can take place without the assignment of leave. As the 747 has operated for the last 3 years on the good will of the crew the assignment of leave would be the ultimate spit in the face.
The mendacious opinions of headmaster aside. Matters will progress and No help from AIPA can be expected (notably I was just informed of several allegedly seniority vested interests over there!) as if they were willing to assist their membership, they would certainly have some skin in the game by now!
I note that Keg has astutely highlighted the potential failure point for any hope of a reasonable outcome in the RIN is the individual allegedly in charge of the process!
God help us all!
So a few 744 pilots who thought they were going to fly the 744 until retirement have had their plans interrupted by the company and all of a sudden it’s the End of Days.
Thus all these pilots want (and their families) is some degree of certainty. They are looking to the Company and being fed total BS (for Administrative and Fiscal reasons)! They are looking to their Association and hear nothing but Silence from the AIPA!
The upcoming RIN will not be pleasant for those involved (some who will have been RIN ed more than once before) hopefully it can be navigated in the best way possible. (At least hopefully better by the company than the last few RINs we have gone through, AIPA where good when I was went through it)
Also I hope that both the company and AIPA follow up with those who are RINed 6/12 months down the track to see how they are going. I know I am still unhappy about how I was RINed and so no doubt are many who have gone through the process.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The town crier hailed 'transformation'
The riches flowed to a few pockets and staff stopped holding their breath.
Now but a few years later, in the grips of a global pilot shortage, QF looks to be de-transforming'
When all around airlines are promoting QF demote!
The generation of pilots long since retired had the foresight to protect future generations for they knew precisely what airline management are.
The RIN process looks to be very complex, perhaps it is by design. It is the complexity of the design that likely stops Little Napoleon throwing pilots on the scrap heap when any head wind presents.
No doubt a complex process is also very costly, much better to try scatter the herd.
The riches flowed to a few pockets and staff stopped holding their breath.
Now but a few years later, in the grips of a global pilot shortage, QF looks to be de-transforming'
When all around airlines are promoting QF demote!
The generation of pilots long since retired had the foresight to protect future generations for they knew precisely what airline management are.
The RIN process looks to be very complex, perhaps it is by design. It is the complexity of the design that likely stops Little Napoleon throwing pilots on the scrap heap when any head wind presents.
No doubt a complex process is also very costly, much better to try scatter the herd.
Why would I or anyone else want to do AIPA’s job?
As Keg illustrated, there are so many variable in how this could play out AIPA is in no position to second guess the companies moves and advise you what to do based on a guess.
AIPA put in place RIN rules in the EA and AIPA will ensure those rules are followed, THAT is their job, NOT running the company.
There is a whole flight ops team managing the RIN, cutely called Project Sunset. It has numerous people and it is taking months. If you bid for a training slot (or bought a house in SEQ) based on AIPA’s best guess at the outcome of this project that turned out to be incorrect you would be furious.
If if you want to know what Qantas are going to do, ask Qantas, don’t attack AIPA.
Nunc est bibendum
Follow up? If past behaviour is predictive of future behaviour then don’t hold your breath!
Nunc est bibendum
What is complex is the variables and decision making process of the company in the lead up to the RIN. Things like retirement plans of one fleet, how that interacts with replacement aircraft, the demographic of those on the RIN aircraft type, etc.
Thread Starter
The RIN in this case is far more complex because of the year 4 money on the 787 , no overtime or night credits and a squirrel cage bidding system. If it had been like for like I would say the majority would have bid for the 787 not waited for the RIN.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It may make pilot decisions more complex but, hey, the 747 is going and a RIN will happen eventually.
It doesn’t only affect 747 pilots, those who will be displaced won’t be happy either!
This thread started as an EBA thread, not 747 RIN. Think hard about how to get the best possible EBA in total, as well as the slowdown and exit of the 747. Last RIN was helped by VR, this time the company stubbornly refuses (apparently) entertaining that notion - maybe they can be made to reconsider!
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DeShire
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leading up to the last 767 RIN we had Alan Joyce begging the government for money and Qantas made a record loss.
A TERMINAL decline according to Joyce.
The company and AIPA both showed the 787 flying mostly to Asia and not anywhere near as long as PER-LHR so as to make the loss of overtime and night credits look far less than is now the reality.
145 Stick hours was sold as an acceptable workload. That is now 175.
Pilots falsely believed Qantas would order 787 numbers in the order of 50. They were also told to believe that Qantas would go broke. The reality is that today the 787 is simply a 747 replacement type and Qantas is not going broke but is making consecutive billion dollar profits.
Qantas has now made multiple yearly record profits. At the same time Executives have taken HUNDREDS of millions in dollars in BONUSES with Alan taking close to 100 MILLION personally.
There is also A lot of retirements due and there is a well documented global Pilot SHORTAGE.
If the 747 replacement was closely remunerated then this would be an non issue. The 747 pilots would simply re-train onto the 787.
The new type is going to replace the A380 and fly mostly 21 hour flights. No operator does this and no Qantas pilot has flown this kind of extreme flying.
AIPA and the pilot body better make damn sure it’s a very good deal as that kind of flying will be a killer.
Maybe if your 20s or 30s you can be smug and say how easy it will be. But in your 50s and 60s ????????
Very soon pilots will have to work to 67 before retiring. Pilots better think long and hard about down the track In later years doing that kind of flying on a repetitive basis.
I would expect the company to cry wolf again and hope the pilots accept a crap deal out of fear.
The million dollar bonus question is how many times can they get away with it.
The SH EBA is curretly pathetic and the new LH agreement for the 380 replacement needs to be better than the 787 EA given what it will do.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very soon pilots will have to work to 67 before retiring. Pilots better think long and hard about down the track In later years doing that kind of flying on a repetitive basis.
Thread Starter
Couple of points.
Leading up to the last 767 RIN we had Alan Joyce begging the government for money and Qantas made a record loss.
A TERMINAL decline according to Joyce.
The company and AIPA both showed the 787 flying mostly to Asia and not anywhere near as long as PER-LHR so as to make the loss of overtime and night credits look far less than is now the reality.
145 Stick hours was sold as an acceptable workload. That is now 175.
Pilots falsely believed Qantas would order 787 numbers in the order of 50. They were also told to believe that Qantas would go broke. The reality is that today the 787 is simply a 747 replacement type and Qantas is not going broke but is making consecutive billion dollar profits.
Qantas has now made multiple yearly record profits. At the same time Executives have taken HUNDREDS of millions in dollars in BONUSES with Alan taking close to 100 MILLION personally.
There is also A lot of retirements due and there is a well documented global Pilot SHORTAGE.
If the 747 replacement was closely remunerated then this would be an non issue. The 747 pilots would simply re-train onto the 787.
The new type is going to replace the A380 and fly mostly 21 hour flights. No operator does this and no Qantas pilot has flown this kind of extreme flying.
AIPA and the pilot body better make damn sure it’s a very good deal as that kind of flying will be a killer.
Maybe if your 20s or 30s you can be smug and say how easy it will be. But in your 50s and 60s ????????
Very soon pilots will have to work to 67 before retiring. Pilots better think long and hard about down the track In later years doing that kind of flying on a repetitive basis.
I would expect the company to cry wolf again and hope the pilots accept a crap deal out of fear.
The million dollar bonus question is how many times can they get away with it.
The SH EBA is curretly pathetic and the new LH agreement for the 380 replacement needs to be better than the 787 EA given what it will do.
And with the sitting AIPA president gone, will the new unknown (well haven’t heard anything from AIPA as to what is going on) president succeed in achieving what many on this thread seem to beleive is achievable? Or will they also discover that the company wants no part of mutually beneficial discussions and end up being criticised endlessly by the mob?
Last edited by engine out; 13th Nov 2018 at 08:18.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: W1
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And with the sitting AIPA president gone, will the new unknown (well haven’t heard anything from AIPA as to what is going on) president succeed in achieving what many on this thread seem to beleive is achievable? Or will they also discover that the company wants no part of mutually beneficial discussions and end up being criticised endlessly by the mob?
Not a great start for the new regime that you read this info on other forums.
short flights long nights
Alan has 100 mill in bonuses....are you serious??
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
His options, pay and bonuses would be close to that . Regardless is disgustingly high for an airline CEO
and grossly above comparative airlines.
At least now the airline has turned around they can’t cry wolf for either EBA as others suggest.
They will try though.
and grossly above comparative airlines.
At least now the airline has turned around they can’t cry wolf for either EBA as others suggest.
They will try though.
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Harbour Master Place
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Source: Time for a little 'perspective' Mr Joyce? post #2
To which you need to add his earlier earnings as Jetstar CEO, sourced from 2005 ~ 2008 Qantas Annual Report
2008 2,395,414
2007 1,659,238
2006 1,423,530
2005 1,418,599
---------------------
Total $6,896,791