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QANTAS long haul EBA

Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:07
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QANTAS long haul EBA



TWo of my favourite saying are chickens coming home to roost, and from Paul Keating “ remember when you build a nest of shit one day you might have to lie in it”.
I’m hearing that a number of 747 pilots feeling that AIPA and Qantas will sell them out in the RIN have authorised their own negotiationing representative to act on their behalf, add into that also the AFAP getting involved and I think this will not be the push over as the last one was. I think AIPA might be quite shocked by the pushback coming from their own and former members
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:15
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The company hasn’t even said ‘boo’ and we have 744 captains wetting their pants.

Grow a spine.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:25
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Originally Posted by ruprecht View Post
The company hasn’t even said ‘boo’ and we have 744 captains wetting their pants.

Grow a spine.
Already got one, I’m not wetting my pants I’m spoiling for a fight.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:30
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post


I’m spoiling for a fight.
Riiiight...

Who with?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:42
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Here we go.

You don't like your current employer...

​​​​​​The Chinese airlines Rishworth Aviation currently work with offer some operating bases outside China and also within China, which include Beijing, Guangzhou, Xiamen, Haikou, Shenzhen & Xi'An.The glass is gleener!
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 05:50
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Sometimes I think we’d be better off without EBA’s. Then people can’t whinge if they don’t like the offer and still choose to stay.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 06:10
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How do the 744 pilots feel they will be ‘sold out’ in a RIN? There’s an agreed process in the LHEA. If the company doesn’t do the RIN IAW that agreement then any pilot can grieve it. It seems pretty cut and dried to me.

What isnt yet known is how the company may choose to approach the retirment of the 744. Will they RIN the S/Os first and heavy crew the 744 with Captains and F/Os until it’s due to retire and then do one RIN in those categories? Will do they do a mini RIN first of Captains ans/ or F/Os and then another final one? A lot comes down to the numbers. A lot also comes down to the final fleet plan and time table for retirement. Something that probably yet isn’t well known.

So perhaps the 744 drivers are spoiling for a fight but buggered if I can work out why they’ve got a bee in their bonnet unless they think the RIN process itself is likely to be significantly amended. I’ve heard nothing to suggest from either side that it’s even on the table for discussion.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 06:32
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You mightn’t have but I certainly have.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 06:52
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Really? So what’s on the table to change the RIN criteria? And by whom?

Keeping in mind that we’re likely to face an A380 RIN and an A330 RIN within the next 7-10 years or so I’m not sure any of the pilot group are going to be trading away any safeguards in the RIN process.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:15
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Keg, I’d say that by “sold out” he means the company has no intention of paying entitled 744 Captains VR payments that they feel they deserve.

Last edited by SandyPalms; 14th Aug 2018 at 07:43.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:22
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Originally Posted by SandyPalms View Post
Keg, I’d say that by “sold out” he means the company has no intention of paying entitled 744 Captains VR payments that they feel they deserve. Way to go dragon, you’ve just put every other type and rank against you guys. I say we call him Neymar. Fool.
I’d actually say you are the fool here, I’m entitled as is no one on the 747 to any VR. How long has it been now since the announcement of the 747s departure? One sentence from the company would put it all to bed and that is the company will abide by the provisions of the RIN process as per the long haul contract. The silence is deafening.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:45
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So what are you suggesting dragon? What is the conspiracy?

forced to the 787 or something? Replacement type, no displacements etc....,

and pertantly, what is it that you want? If its in the contract, what do you have to be worried about?
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:47
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“Siri, what is ‘ECAM’?”
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 07:52
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If the ‘bargaining representative’ mentioned in the opening post is the QLD 747 pilot I’m led to believe it is, then I’m more than happy to to stick with AIPA doing the talking.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 08:01
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Really? So what’s on the table to change the RIN criteria? And by whom?

Keeping in mind that we’re likely to face an A380 RIN and an A330 RIN within the next 7-10 years or so I’m not sure any of the pilot group are going to be trading away any safeguards in the RIN process.

I think that’s the point. The future looks like a RIN followed by a RIN followed by a RIN and Yes statistically within the next 7 to10 years or 4 to 5 Years after the last B-747 hull is forecast to leave.

So, any I.R department would be looking at options. The Pilot group may not want to trade away any safeguards in the RIN process, however, I am sure the Qantas accountants and shareholders would! Probably called an “efficiency” in any current/future negotiations.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 08:17
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post

How long has it been now since the announcement of the 747s departure?


I’d be stunned if there is yet a firm plan of what aircraft go when. In fact I know as at a week ago Flight Ops still didn’t know the longer term plan.

Originally Posted by dragon man View Post

One sentence from the company would put it all to bed and that is the company will abide by the provisions of the RIN process as per the long haul contract. The silence is deafening.
Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
You want the company to put out a statement to line crew saying they’ll adhere to an award that they’re already legally required to adhere to?

I get that there are a number of 744 crews wondering what will become of them. Heck, four years ago I was there myself. Like the 767 drivers did, it’s relatively easy for 744 Captains to read the award, look at the numbers, consider the previous pronouncements about the 787, and work out some of the options the company may use to deal with them.

Which one could the company use? Who knows. They don’t have enough information yet to make the call. Besides which, things can change between now and 18 months time when the trigger proabably first needs to be pulled.

Things are a bit more grey for the F/Os as the seniority band is much wider but even that should be relatively easy to determine for individual pilots. At least there are likely to be promotional opportunities available for them in the lead up to the RIN-so,thing that wasn’t available in 2014.

Originally Posted by Capt Colonial View Post

So, any I.R department would be looking at options. The Pilot group may not want to trade away any safeguards in the RIN process, however, I am sure the Qantas accountants and shareholders would! Probably called an “efficiency” in any current/future negotiations.
So there’s a level of angst prevalent that strikes me as premature and largely unwarranted- at least for the moment.


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Old 14th Aug 2018, 08:35
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Communication and Leadership is the Key

Qantas I.R management is well known for industrial kite-flying. Rumours of S/O displacements from the B-747 to the B-737 gave some insight into what lateral options HR were allegedly exploring recently. Right now, the B-747 is training its Captains to be RHS qualified to release F/O’s early, however, haven’t explained that process to the F/O’s!

As Dragon rightly stated. Given the above actions, the stress and angst with all the collective uncertainty would probably disappear for individual B-747 Pilots if Qantas Management (and the Pilots Association) stated they will follow the RIN protocols in the future and at least made some form of communication regarding the prospects to a dedicated workforce that is eager for their managers to give them career insight and guidance.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 09:05
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767 pilots found out five months before the fleet dead stopped what was to be done with them. The final 744 retirement is still at least two years away. No one is likely to be demoted as a result of this RIN. People are getting wound up way too early.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:02
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
767 pilots found out five months before the fleet dead stopped what was to be done with them. The final 744 retirement is still at least two years away. No one is likely to be demoted as a result of this RIN. People are getting wound up way too early.
Just because they stuffed the last RIN does not mean we should accept it again.
The EBA negotiations for the timespan of any 747 RIN has already begun. (Negotiated by the same team, more or less, who negotiated the 787 contract)
Now is certainly the time to point out to both sets of negotiators to get this right and not get into a confrontational situation.
QF managers have differing opinions as to what the EBA RIN process means. One manager is hoping pilots will do reduced lines (at reduced pay) until the end to stop multiple RINs - pigs arse!! 160hrs min thank you.
The company will do anything to reduce the costs of the 747 fleet reduction, (and secure thrir bonuses)’ our job is to ensure that AIPA suck the very best deal out of them and not accept what has happened before!
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:05
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I’m hearing that a number of 747 pilots feeling that AIPA and Qantas will sell them out in the RIN have authorised their own negotiationing representative to act on their behalf, add into that also the AFAP getting involved and I think this will not be the push over as the last one was.
Remember during the last EA when the hero of EBA 8 - GD decided unilaterally he was going to put himself up as a negotiator seperate from AIPA with his own log of claims?? Remember how well that worked out?

And AFAP’s rule change was struck off so it would be illegal for them to represent Qantas LH pilots in the negotiation.

If 744 pilots are worried about the RIN it would be a lot smarter to call their manager or the AIPA exec rather than put their faith in a party who Qantas won’t negotiate with or one they legally can’t negotiate with.
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