QANTAS long haul EBA
Thread Starter
I’m also hearing there might well be a new AIPA president next week.
To be fair, the AIPA President did not negotiate the last long haul EBA. He gave autonomy to the EBA negotiating team to work independently and come up with the best deal they could. Due process was for the prospective agreement to be endorsed by the AIPA Committee of Management, which it was, with only a handful of the 40 committee members not endorsing it. The agreement was then put to all long haul pilots by Qantas, where 0ver 80% agreed with the proposed agreement. Implying there was some kind of conspiracy or underhanded behaviour by the former AIPA president is misguided and false. I can understand that there may be some 'buyers remorse'. At the time the deal was negotiated, many long haul pilots were concerned about having a job. Now prospects have changed, with a growing pilot shortage and the company being profitable. Understandably, expectations for the next EBA will be different, but you can't confuse the environment we face now with what was in place during the last negotiation.
.0ver 80% agreed with the proposed agreement.
What dear Stream Lead is doing now is nothing to do with our past vote.
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“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
― George W. Bush
Didn't all the unions accept the invertible 'job cuts' unless they signed up.
Didn't Qantas run to the government begging for AUD$ 3 billion and get an EK alliance with no tangible upside?
Didn't they, at the stroke of a pen, write off the international fleet and aided by plummeting fuel prices 'transform' the business?
Let's hope for all that George W is right and err you can't fool em again. Or something like that.
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At the time the deal was negotiated, many long haul pilots were concerned about having a job.
but we voted for it fair and square.
This was an extraordinary outcome for the company, requiring extraordinary manipulation, and it worked. No wonder there are a lot of pilots with buyers remorse.
I really don’t think it is about being fooled.
The last EBA was just that...the last EBA... decided on under that time and conditions. It secured the 787 for mainline. At last check there is no shortage of pilots jumping across to the new conditions on the 787, including the stream lead.
EBA’s are not personal, they are business. My concern is the apathy, and lack of recognition that to change the status quo (read EBA) requires fight. It might require individual gain to be put to the side for the collective good. For months or years now SH pilots have been complaining about rosters, workload and work/life balance. Yet still there are pages and pages of pilots with their name in the book to help the company. Still pilots extend duty beyond what is required.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
Pilots are either gutless, selfish or at best apathetic. Until this changes, proclaiming pilots were fooled is giving management far too much credit when the real answer stares you back in the mirror.
The last EBA was just that...the last EBA... decided on under that time and conditions. It secured the 787 for mainline. At last check there is no shortage of pilots jumping across to the new conditions on the 787, including the stream lead.
EBA’s are not personal, they are business. My concern is the apathy, and lack of recognition that to change the status quo (read EBA) requires fight. It might require individual gain to be put to the side for the collective good. For months or years now SH pilots have been complaining about rosters, workload and work/life balance. Yet still there are pages and pages of pilots with their name in the book to help the company. Still pilots extend duty beyond what is required.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
Pilots are either gutless, selfish or at best apathetic. Until this changes, proclaiming pilots were fooled is giving management far too much credit when the real answer stares you back in the mirror.
I really don’t think it is about being fooled.
The last EBA was just that...the last EBA... decided on under that time and conditions. It secured the 787 for mainline. At last check there is no shortage of pilots jumping across to the new conditions on the 787, including the stream lead.
EBA’s are not personal, they are business. My concern is the apathy, and lack of recognition that to change the status quo (read EBA) requires fight. It might require individual gain to be put to the side for the collective good. For months or years now SH pilots have been complaining about rosters, workload and work/life balance. Yet still there are pages and pages of pilots with their name in the book to help the company. Still pilots extend duty beyond what is required.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
Pilots are either gutless, selfish or at best apathetic. Until this changes, proclaiming pilots were fooled is giving management far too much credit when the real answer stares you back in the mirror.
The last EBA was just that...the last EBA... decided on under that time and conditions. It secured the 787 for mainline. At last check there is no shortage of pilots jumping across to the new conditions on the 787, including the stream lead.
EBA’s are not personal, they are business. My concern is the apathy, and lack of recognition that to change the status quo (read EBA) requires fight. It might require individual gain to be put to the side for the collective good. For months or years now SH pilots have been complaining about rosters, workload and work/life balance. Yet still there are pages and pages of pilots with their name in the book to help the company. Still pilots extend duty beyond what is required.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
Pilots are either gutless, selfish or at best apathetic. Until this changes, proclaiming pilots were fooled is giving management far too much credit when the real answer stares you back in the mirror.
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For months or years now SH pilots have been complaining about rosters, workload and work/life balance. Yet still there are pages and pages of pilots with their name in the book to help the company. Still pilots extend duty beyond what is required.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
Pilots so often end up tilting the risk reward scale well into the personal risk zone under the guise of professional conduct or personal gain. This is taken advantage of by the company during negotiating time.
However, with one small caveat, the company developed and maintained a narrative of 'terminality' which some how expired, with their incredible management skill, shortly thereafter.
Giving credit where credit due, Olivia kept that spin going a long time.
Pilots are either gutless, selfish or at best apathetic. Until this changes, proclaiming pilots were fooled is giving management far too much credit when the real answer stares you back in the mirror.
Even Paul Piggy Howes is a partner at KPMG. Traded his family and checked his values in for a 'high mile' new bride. Nobody batters an eye at either. That either of them is given the time of day is more a reflection of the society where values matter little.
Thread Starter
The vote was like finding any one who voted for Gough Whitlam, he won twice but everyone denies having voted for him. As for pilots helping the company I see it differently, they are helping themselves as they consider AIPA useless. When Qantas pilots split from the AFAP the then president Barry Fitzsimmons said at a meeting if you leave the AFAP you will eventually just become another arm of Qantas management. He was 100% correct.
Thread Starter
The vote was like finding any one who voted for Gough Whitlam, he won twice but everyone denies having voted for him. As for pilots helping the company I see it differently, they are helping themselves as they consider AIPA useless. When Qantas pilots split from the AFAP the then president Barry Fitzsimmons said at a meeting if you leave the AFAP you will eventually just become another arm of Qantas management. He was 100% correct.
AIPA is only as strong as the collective membership and only as effective as allowed under legislation. As to being an arm of Qantas management, care to expand on that, as that is not my experience.
Thread Starter
Its mine and on here no, however the last EBA with the 787 deal pretty much says it all.
OK, so what exactly does the 787 deal say? AIPA negotiated a deal that was acceptable to over 80% of pilots. If they were an arm of management, then they massively underperformed on that metric.
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The approval would’ve been closer to 90% if short haul pilots, all of whom have worked in or could work in long haul, had been eligible to vote.
There seems to be some sort of attempt to reframe history as the sole responsibility of one person here. And the 787 remains a popular destination for current Capts and F/Os on the 737 and 330.
There seems to be some sort of attempt to reframe history as the sole responsibility of one person here. And the 787 remains a popular destination for current Capts and F/Os on the 737 and 330.
Thread Starter
Again and it is only my opinion a lot of long haul pilots believed that they would never to fly under what I call the B scale on the 787 so as they wanted the back pay they voted it up. The reality is however that IMO all present long haul aircraft except the 787 will be gone in under 10 years then everyone can operate under the new scale. It won’t be me and I’m very happy about that.
Again and it is only my opinion a lot of long haul pilots believed that they would never to fly under what I call the B scale on the 787 so as they wanted the back pay they voted it up. The reality is however that IMO all present long haul aircraft except the 787 will be gone in under 10 years then everyone can operate under the new scale. It won’t be me and I’m very happy about that.
Thread Starter
I agree with you. It is likely that whatever new aircraft is purchased under project sunrise will probably be on a pay system similar to that on the 787. What the hourly rate is will be an interesting question. I also agree that the 747 and most likely the A380 will not be in Qantas service in 10 years time. I don't agree that the 787 is on a B scale. In my view, a B scale is where there are pilots working for the same employer flying the same aircraft, but on different rates. That aside, I have no problem with you having a view that you don't like the structure of pay and conditions on the 787. What I am having difficulty with is working out how this equates to AIPA being useless or being an arm of Qantas. As has been stated, there are pilots bidding off the A330 and 737 to the 787. In terms of the seniority to get there, it sits between the A330 and the four engine types. If the conditions were considered poor by the majority of pilots, you would see that reflected in the seniority for the 787 going low. This has not happened.
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I feel dragon man may be reflecting on areas of the long-haul T & C’s. Which took a hit with the introduction of the B-787.
Currently, there are some problems with scheduling and several comparative items on the B-787 fleet so it is timely to have the EA once again approaching. Certainly, we will see how much metal the collective long-haul group have if they wish to change some unpalatable areas in the current EA.
During the last EA, one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause for those that (will) be redeployed to the B-787 from the B-747. Notably, those pilots that may be redeployed are considering that Fleet (B-787) even though eligible to jump to the A380 as they don’t want to commit to the A380, to have to, once again, retrain in a few years time. Rumours of A380 Wing Cracks and alleged extended Interior Refurbishment times abound apparently over in the maintenance areas.
What I feel and see is that Pilots over on the B-747 Fleet are waiting for some positive leadership out of AIPA (information) re the Reduction In Numbers from the B-747 onto ‘other fleets’. Certainly, after the SIT Manager produced a basic handout of the B-747 fleet retirement dates (timescale) for the B-747 certainly a forward redeployment scale could be drawn out for those Pilots (even if it is the 'best guess' at this time!). Yet nothing from AIPA. Once again Qantas Management is running the full show, with NO guidance from the Association currently! IMO that makes people very frustrated and leaves them pondering why AIPA is not more pro-active to its affected members.
Currently, there are some problems with scheduling and several comparative items on the B-787 fleet so it is timely to have the EA once again approaching. Certainly, we will see how much metal the collective long-haul group have if they wish to change some unpalatable areas in the current EA.
During the last EA, one of the B-747 AIPA Committee members astutely drove the Year 4 pay-deal clause for those that (will) be redeployed to the B-787 from the B-747. Notably, those pilots that may be redeployed are considering that Fleet (B-787) even though eligible to jump to the A380 as they don’t want to commit to the A380, to have to, once again, retrain in a few years time. Rumours of A380 Wing Cracks and alleged extended Interior Refurbishment times abound apparently over in the maintenance areas.
What I feel and see is that Pilots over on the B-747 Fleet are waiting for some positive leadership out of AIPA (information) re the Reduction In Numbers from the B-747 onto ‘other fleets’. Certainly, after the SIT Manager produced a basic handout of the B-747 fleet retirement dates (timescale) for the B-747 certainly a forward redeployment scale could be drawn out for those Pilots (even if it is the 'best guess' at this time!). Yet nothing from AIPA. Once again Qantas Management is running the full show, with NO guidance from the Association currently! IMO that makes people very frustrated and leaves them pondering why AIPA is not more pro-active to its affected members.