Bad habits or just the real way to fly?

[julietbravo]

I'm going through some training atm with someone who is teaching me different things from what I learnt in flying school. I just want to know other people's options because I don't want to learn bad habits.

In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff. So when I takeoff I just go straight to setting the attitude with reference to outside then confirm on the a/h that I'm at an attitude of between 12-15 degrees and wait for the airspeed to bleed back to what's required. Instead I am being told to pull right back above the attitude and the aircraft almost straight away is at airspeed then slowly lower the nose to maintain it.

Second thing he's telling me is to turn then bug. I understand that as a pilot you should be able to fly and big simultaneously but I was always told to bug then turn and to me it is easier and makes more sense to do it that way.

Thirdly is I did a parallel entry into a hold and was waiting till the turn outbound was complete before timing one minute and then he asked if I was going to get him to time my one minute. I replied saying I was waiting for the turn outbound to be complete but was told no I start it once overhead which made my intercept inbound a lot harder with higher banked turns because I wasn't far outbound in the entry procedure. (I know the way he told me was wrong but was wondering why he would think that's the correct way to do it or been taught that way?)

Feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Hempy]

try The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions - PPRuNe Forums

[das Uber Soldat]

You'll get a million different responses which in a way, is an answer in and of itself.

Anyway, no comment on your first question.

2nd, I bug, then I turn. Don't know anyone who doesn't.

3rd, AIP ENR 1.5 is pretty clear.

"On reaching the holding fix, the aircraft is turned onto an outbound heading (to track parallel with the inbound track) for the appropriate period of time (taken from over or abeam the holding fix whichever is later), or until reaching the limiting DME distance if earlier; then"

[Tee Emm]

In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff. So when I takeoff I just go straight to setting the attitude with reference to outside then confirm on the a/h that I'm at an attitude of between 12-15 degrees and wait for the airspeed to bleed back to what's required. Instead I am being told to pull right back above the attitude and the aircraft almost straight away is at airspeed then slowly lower the nose to maintain it.

Difficult to answer your first question from reading what you wrote as it doesn't make sense. What aircraft type? Sounds like a general aviation type with manually operated flight director where you say "set an attitude on the AH". If so, don't waste time on chasing a flight director. Learn to fly without it.

The advice given to you by your instructor on the other two questions is rubbish. It doesn't matter a rat's, re turning the heading bug before or after commencing the turn if manually flying. And re timing in the sector entry that you describe. Your instructor doesn't know his AIP that's for sure. Change instructors otherwise you risk wasting your money

[WannaBeBiggles]

Change instructor... If they don't know their Jepps/AIP's then that's a bad sign! "Fly the bug" is used everywhere I've worked (now in a multi-crew TP).

[rmcdonal]

Sounds like you need to change instructors.
I would not pitch above the required attitude and then lower the nose once the speed had bled off, easier to rotate at the correct rate for your type and aim for a given attitude that you then adjust from. That way if you loose an engine you are less likely to find yourself below v2, and with both going the extra speed is unlikely to affect your terrain clearance by anything worth measuring.

Second thing he's telling me is to turn then bug.

Why? Why would you do that? Set the bug to tell you when you have reached your required heading, setting after is just stupid. If you are hand flying (and you must be if that's the way they instruct you to move the bug) then why make it more difficult?

Thirdly is I did a parallel entry into a hold and was waiting till the turn outbound was complete before timing one minute and then he asked if I was going to get him to time my one minute. I replied saying I was waiting for the turn outbound to be complete but was told no I start it once overhead which made my intercept inbound a lot harder with higher banked turns because I wasn't far outbound in the entry procedure. (I know the way he told me was wrong but was wondering why he would think that's the correct way to do it or been taught that way?)

Sounds like your instructor doesn't know what they are talking about.
Ditch them now, or waste money learning incorrect procedures.

If it's an airline.....

[julietbravo]

Thanks @Hempy, I should've explored forums more to find the right catergory to post under.

@das Uber soldat and @Tee Emm, sorry I was trying to post from my phone so it made it difficult to edit.

For takeoff I've been setting an attitude to try to achieve the desired performance (79kt).
In the manoeuvre section of the aircraft operations manual, it says the attitude for 79kt is approximately 12-15 degrees.
So I have been setting that attitude and initially the airspeed is higher, but after settling in the climb for a sec or two at that attitude, the airspeed does come back to 79kt.
But what my trainer tells me to do when raising the nose, is to bring the nose attitude up so that it's at 79kt (above 12-15 degrees) from the start and then lower the attitude when the airspeed starts decreasing to maintain 79kt.
I guess I can see the benefits of doing it his way because of the clearance it would give you over obstacles, I just find it more guess work than anything and by doing that i'm putting so much emphasis on watching the ASI.
I hope that makes it more clear.
I think because I know things one way, it's difficult to trust when someone is telling me to do something completely different to what I've spent hundreds of hours doing. I just want to know what I'm being taught is right, will benefit my flying and keep passengers safe.

The reason I actually asked about those other things such as the HDG bug is because he keeps nagging me about it, whenever I bug first. I bug first because it means I only focus on one thing at a time rather than turning and bugging simultaneously. Personally I think it's because he is impatient and when he gives me a heading to turn on to he expects it ASAP, rather than one second later. I did just want to clarify in case later on in my career, I should be turning first rather than bugging or to be more responsive to ATC.

Thanks for your replies.

[AmarokGTI]

I concur with the above.
3 bad habits.
I would suggest not only to move on but to explain why, so they can know they need to up their game!

[julietbravo]

I don't want to bag this guy, but either he's really lost or at that time got completely disorientated, because while doing the parallel entry after flying the reciprocal for 1 min, I started my (left) turn inbound (of a right hand holding pattern) and went through the coursebar to the holding side of the inbound then intercepted from there (as per parallel entry procedure) and he said at the time "you need to turn tighter, tighter" then once I went through to the hold side said "see now you've missed it, you've flown right through the inbound" as he obviously wanted my turn to intercept it from the non holding side. The wrong stuff that he is telling me is affecting my flying too because it makes it hard to trust the things he's telling me and concentrate as he's creating a lot of confusion.

The reason I've come to the forum is because this guy is the trainer for employment I have just gained. I have very limited experience so I wanted to be sure about these things before approaching him and talking to him about them because it's a really good opportunity and I don't want to put myself in the bad books already, before I've even done my OCA.

[Snakecharma]

You will only pitch the aeroplane well above the target attitude on takeoff in a jet once before someone in the other seat gets grumpy.

And if you do what your instructor (hopefully soon to be ex instructor) is telling you to do in the sim with an engine failure it won't be pretty. (I appreciate he isn't in a jet (or assume he isn't) or a sim, but the habits developed now will come out when under stress later and as I say the bloke sitting next to him will quite rightly get a tad shirty).

Re the heading bug, the heading bug, amongst other things is an 'aide-memoire' so when you are loaded up hand flying the aeroplane you don't sit there and go "what heading did he want?" Single pilot IFR in a GA aeroplane with minimal support from Nav systems, decent instruments, autopilots etc is the hardest flying you will ever do in my opinion, don't let old mate stuff you up and generate even more work!

I was also taught to turn the heading bug in the required direction of turn even if that isn't the shortest way to the heading.ie. Turn left heading 123. I turn the heading bug left to get to the heading. This had the benefit of reinforcing the direction of turn in your head. Easy to dismiss as unnecessary when we are talking over the computer, but when in a high workload environment it is an easy enough mistake to make. In one of the aeroplanes I flew the autopilot would take the shortest way there, so even if you turned the bug left but the desired heading was less than 180 degree to the right, it would turn right. So you had to turn the heading bug slowly until the desired heading was within 180 degrees of the actual heading. Buggered if I can remember what aeroplane it was but it was a turboprop or jet but one I have not flown for over 20 years so.

PS tee emm, I took his line "set an attitude on the AH" to mean get the aeroplane to the attitude he wanted I.e. Set the attitude, not set anything to do with a flight director.

[framer]

In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff.

Having a target attitude for rotate is very important. It will serve you well one dark and stormy night in the future. If you are too fast when you get to your target attitude it may mean that your rotate is too slow. ( without knowing the type it is a bit hard to give more info). Tell us the type and then those familiar with it can help out a bit more.
As PM it can get your attention if the PF continues to lift the nose through the target attitude which can then become a minor distraction as you go about raising the gear etc.

[VH-FTS]

1. Your instructor is 'performance' flying. Sounds like you're 'attitude' flying, which is better. Others above have already described why you're doing the right thing.

2. I'm with your instructor - anticipate and turn the heading bug first. It gives you an excellent visual reference for the turn and let's be honest, takes about 3 seconds at most to do. If it's an outbound to inbound turn, set the bug say 10 seconds before you are due to turn and turn it in the direction you intend to turn.

Another reason I'm big on this is it's preparing you for appropriate autopilot and flight director usage in the future. You might not have these yet, but you will in your career in the not too distant future. If the AP is engaged you will have to turn the bug first. If you're flying just using the flight director, and you don't set the heading bug, you'll be flying opposite to the FD bar indications. The last 3 CAR217 organisations I've worked for have been big on not turning contrary to FD bar indications etc.

3. I'm with das uber soldat, who actually provided the reference too - your instructor is correct with this one. That's unless I'm misunderstanding your discription of events. Are you talking about the timing for the sector entry or timing for the hold - they are two different things and I think a few ppruners have this confused too.



Last thing you need to think about - pprune is full of many opinions, and many are uninformed and based on a lack of knowledge. Don't ever take pprune knowledge as gospel (some might even think I'm full of ****e). Sit down with an instructor or two and get them to explain why they want you to do certain things. Just because someone shows you a different way doesn't mean it's wrong. It's up to you to decide what tips/tools you take on board to better your flying.

[Snakecharma]

FTS

2. I'm with your instructor - anticipate and turn the heading bug first. It gives you an excellent visual reference for the turn and let's be honest, takes about 3 seconds at most to do. If it's an outbound to inbound turn, set the bug say 10 seconds before you are due to turn and turn it in the direction you intend to turn.

I thought his instructor was telling him to turn to the heading and then back it up with the heading bug.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

For takeoff I've been setting an attitude to try to achieve the desired performance (79kt).

Why are you going faster than 79kts and needing to slow down? You're on the right track when you worry that your altitude will be higher following his method but if you pitch correctly to the desired attitude as you approach 79kts (I'm assuming you're in a small GA and getting airborne and using ground effect to accelerate?) then you'll have the 'most' altitude possible at any given point on your track. It sounds like your rotation rate is too slow or starting too late.

[VH-FTS]

Originally Posted by Snakecharma

FTS
I thought his instructor was telling him to turn to the heading and then back it up with the heading bug.

Yep, you're right, must have confused the OP with a reply.

I disagree with the instructor then. Bug first!

[High 6]

The fact that you are questioning things is a good sign. Unfortunately, you will come across instructors from ab initio to heavy jet in your career who feel that being an instructor gives one the right to to add their own interpretations to already established practices and procedures. In many cases these may be good, but can only be taken as a recommendations not as legal and mandated. Where these recommendations are in direct conflict with your understanding, then you should ask them to guide you to the exact reference in the manuals that support their recommendation. With regard to the 3 points raised, the instructor is incorrect on all 3 counts and would have difficulty providing any written evidence to support his teachings.

[Centaurus]

During my type rating training in the 737-200 in NZ the HSI had one operating knob either side on the instrument itself. One to change the course (ILS/VOR)and the other to change the heading. It was my very first simulator trip.

I went to familiarise myself with the two knobs when the screaming clown of a check captain roared at me saying "You change the course knob with your left hand and change the heading knob with your right hand." Or maybe it was the other way around? - I forget. The point being, it was so trivial and didn't matter a brass razoo, anyway
These personalities exist in most flying organisations - unfortunately.

[Car RAMROD]

Your trainer is probably one of the following two- very experienced and "can do everything at once" and because he is impatient he expects you to do it his way to hurry it all up; or fairly inexperienced as a trainer.
Either way, they don't realise effective ways of teaching people new to the role you are in now. From my own personal experience, I wasn't good at training when I first started it, the temptation is to try and tell them how/when to do things only because you personally would have done that task by then. Flying experience does not equal being a good trainer; it is a skill that must be learnt and refined.

Anyway, re HDG bug. Bug first then turn. The reasons for it have already been mentioned. I would suggest you continue to bug first. Note that there is nothing "wrong" with turning first then bugging, it's in most people's opinion not the best method.
When your trainer mentions it again, bring it up in the debrief. "I bug first to keep my level of situational awareness up. I haven't been taught your method before, what are the benefits? I'll give it a go and see if it suits me." Of course, we all know that you won't change, but you'll at least challenge their method in a good way and might give them an ego boost - it'll give them the chance to try and get their point across. Then they might accept if you don't change, or they'll shut up about it.

Re sector entry timing.
You are both correct, kind of. Outbound timing begins "over or abeam the fix, whichever is later." Your instructor may have forgotten this and just does it over the fix every time. For your sector 1/parallel, just hit the timer as you go overhead, bug, then turn. By the time you've done this, 5 or so seconds will have passed before you turn to parallel the inbound track which gives you more space when turning inbound. Then when the minute is up, bug, then turn inbound. The timing doesn't need to be millisecond accurate. I hate the saying but it will highlight my point "near enough is good enough".
Here's another point in relation to parallel joins that a fair few people forget. You don't have to intercept the inbound, you can turn in and just track direct to the aid. From the AIP "the aircraft is turned... to intercept the inbound track or return to the fix" Put needle on the nose, keep it easy

[julietbravo]

Really awesome, constructive feedback and opinions. Thank you all for your help and suggestions, I appreciate it.

[Centaurus]

to intercept the inbound track or return to the fix" Put needle on the nose, keep it easy

Which one you use depends if you intend conducting a further hold or going straight into final approach. If the latter, "putting the needle on the nose" may not be appropriate if it means passing over the aid at an angle and after that, requiring a certain amount of weaving around to get stabilised on the final approach inbound track.