300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???
The reality is that JQ was born due to QF's higher costs.....higher costs on everything from baggage handlers to pilot salaries. QF transferred part of their business to a lower cost business (I know..I know..QF was subsidising, but their costs were lower).
We can all justify salaries on a global scale and say that they are reasonable, but in reality there is an JQA330/A320 operating on a route that was once the domain of QF aircraft.
The problem started 14 years ago when JQ was born and every QF union from AIPA to the TWU did not actively participate in negotiations for a greenfield operation.
The death knell was sounded and today we lay witness to the seed that was planted.
We can all justify salaries on a global scale and say that they are reasonable, but in reality there is an JQA330/A320 operating on a route that was once the domain of QF aircraft.
The problem started 14 years ago when JQ was born and every QF union from AIPA to the TWU did not actively participate in negotiations for a greenfield operation.
The death knell was sounded and today we lay witness to the seed that was planted.
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The problem started 14 years ago when JQ was born and every QF union from AIPA to the TWU did not actively participate in negotiations for a greenfield operation.
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And herein lie the issue. Jetstar IS a low cost business. They charge lower ticket prices for their services because they provide a lower quality service. So now it seems AJ wants a low service, low cost airline (J*), and a premium service, low cost airline (QF). Surely this is trying to have cake and eat it too?
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Sorry KABOY but I've got to correct the ledger here.
Pornstar was started to cut-off a new LCC starting, called Spirit Airlines.
They actually raced together their concept & Media conference and released it all, at Avalon (!) the day before Spirit was to have theirs at Avalon! (Co-incidence? Linfox leases the Airport)
Just a little side note sorry but "Play-on is the call"
Pornstar was started to cut-off a new LCC starting, called Spirit Airlines.
They actually raced together their concept & Media conference and released it all, at Avalon (!) the day before Spirit was to have theirs at Avalon! (Co-incidence? Linfox leases the Airport)
Just a little side note sorry but "Play-on is the call"
This isnt a totally ridiculous option for some to look at. The skill sets wouldnt be that dissimilar and the money is certainly a postive. FBN would be shocked that people can earn that much in any career, but it seems it is possible.
Young workers tell us what it?s really like working on super yachts overseas | News.com.au
Anyone know what bizjet driving money is like?
Both would beat Goose's truck driving option.
Young workers tell us what it?s really like working on super yachts overseas | News.com.au
Anyone know what bizjet driving money is like?
Both would beat Goose's truck driving option.
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In my opinion the future is much more grim for AJ than it is for his mainline pilots.
The problem AJ has are the mainline pilots are just so damn expensive to be made redundant (compulsory redundancy that is)
Even with the offer of a fast command and a potential lengthy career at JQ, the take up rate has been relatively low. Of the pilots that transferred to JQ, most so far have returned.
And the reason for the larger influx of MOU pilots post Oct 2011 was career contingency planning after AJ woke up & decided to shutdown the airline.
Mainline are creating an environment (intentionally) of uncertainty in the hope that another 105 pilots don't return from LOA over the next 12 months.
AJ, tell us why there are parked aircraft in Japan? What's that, you can't get pilots at the pay rate on offer! More fool you.
AJ's little experiment of dangling a carrot to the mainline group failed miserably.
LS even had to throw money at QF pilots to get them to transfer to JQ in the form of a company paid endorsement.
Fellas. The whole scenario now playing out in QF mainline is a manufactured event.
Anyone who believes the dribble that the current surplus is due to the retirement of aircraft has been played.
Yes, the aircraft are retiring. But they are going cause of a lack of investment in the mainline international product and the replacement of mainline services domestically by JQ.
I don't have the figures immediately available. But the forecast growth in the Asia Pacific over the next 20 years is huge. Pilots have got to fly these aircraft. And if the Qantas Group wants to participate in this growth. It's going to need pilots.
AJ needs pilots, it's just the amount he wants to pay them is what he's trying to engineer down to the lowest amount he can.
Make no mistake, he needs experienced pilots but he just doesn't want to pay them much.
And ouch, those zero to hero cadet schemes can keep the right hand seat warm for a while. But what about the Command time for the transfer to the left hand seat.
Sit on your hands fellas. AJ's in the hot seat. He's been saying he's going to turn the business around by 2016. Be patient and watch him fail at his current strategy of replacing premium services with low yielding fares.
As a sign of the confidence in AJ's strategy, the likes of Etihad, AIRNZ & Singapore airlines have slowly been continuing to increase their equity in Virgin.
The closer to 2016 it is, the more AJ will panic about the turnaround and as we all know. His tenure and the current strategy has failed miserably. Watch the current strategy implode.
What's Alan going to do? Shutdown mainline and gift what's left to Virgin domestically and every other premium international airline. Cause I'm sure as heck convinced no premium passenger is going to vote with their feet and fly JQ.
AJ wants to pay me less cause he's pulled out of profitable routes to Frankfurt, failed to reinvest in mainline with fuel efficient aircraft and followed the path of self destruction. Sorry Alan, I'm not taking a pay cut to pay for your parked aircraft in Japan & Europe.
AJ, I say I'll see your hand and raise you two fold. Cause I'll walk into another flying job next week, whereas the shareholders will kick your ar$3 out of your CEO job if you fail to deliver on your 4 pillar strategy by 2016.
Rant over.
MC.
The problem AJ has are the mainline pilots are just so damn expensive to be made redundant (compulsory redundancy that is)
Even with the offer of a fast command and a potential lengthy career at JQ, the take up rate has been relatively low. Of the pilots that transferred to JQ, most so far have returned.
And the reason for the larger influx of MOU pilots post Oct 2011 was career contingency planning after AJ woke up & decided to shutdown the airline.
Mainline are creating an environment (intentionally) of uncertainty in the hope that another 105 pilots don't return from LOA over the next 12 months.
AJ, tell us why there are parked aircraft in Japan? What's that, you can't get pilots at the pay rate on offer! More fool you.
AJ's little experiment of dangling a carrot to the mainline group failed miserably.
LS even had to throw money at QF pilots to get them to transfer to JQ in the form of a company paid endorsement.
Fellas. The whole scenario now playing out in QF mainline is a manufactured event.
Anyone who believes the dribble that the current surplus is due to the retirement of aircraft has been played.
Yes, the aircraft are retiring. But they are going cause of a lack of investment in the mainline international product and the replacement of mainline services domestically by JQ.
I don't have the figures immediately available. But the forecast growth in the Asia Pacific over the next 20 years is huge. Pilots have got to fly these aircraft. And if the Qantas Group wants to participate in this growth. It's going to need pilots.
AJ needs pilots, it's just the amount he wants to pay them is what he's trying to engineer down to the lowest amount he can.
Make no mistake, he needs experienced pilots but he just doesn't want to pay them much.
And ouch, those zero to hero cadet schemes can keep the right hand seat warm for a while. But what about the Command time for the transfer to the left hand seat.
Sit on your hands fellas. AJ's in the hot seat. He's been saying he's going to turn the business around by 2016. Be patient and watch him fail at his current strategy of replacing premium services with low yielding fares.
As a sign of the confidence in AJ's strategy, the likes of Etihad, AIRNZ & Singapore airlines have slowly been continuing to increase their equity in Virgin.
The closer to 2016 it is, the more AJ will panic about the turnaround and as we all know. His tenure and the current strategy has failed miserably. Watch the current strategy implode.
What's Alan going to do? Shutdown mainline and gift what's left to Virgin domestically and every other premium international airline. Cause I'm sure as heck convinced no premium passenger is going to vote with their feet and fly JQ.
AJ wants to pay me less cause he's pulled out of profitable routes to Frankfurt, failed to reinvest in mainline with fuel efficient aircraft and followed the path of self destruction. Sorry Alan, I'm not taking a pay cut to pay for your parked aircraft in Japan & Europe.
AJ, I say I'll see your hand and raise you two fold. Cause I'll walk into another flying job next week, whereas the shareholders will kick your ar$3 out of your CEO job if you fail to deliver on your 4 pillar strategy by 2016.
Rant over.
MC.
Even with the offer of a fast command and a potential lengthy career at JQ, the take up rate has been relatively low. Of the pilots that transferred to JQ, most so far have returned.
One Qantas pilot has resigned from Jetstar to go to china southern. 3 have resigned from Qantas to stay at Jetstar. The rest have yet to play their cards. No SOs have gone back yet. I'd imagine they will take their command and resign from Qantas.
I'd expect a similar ratio with the rest of the MOU guys.
The simple truth is they're not going back.
The take up rate has been overwhelming hence the politics of the MOU. There is more qantas guys at Jetstar now than impulse pilots.
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Qantas Pilots Paid 50% more than their BA Counterparts
25 years BA 747 clearing $165K Aussie
25 years QF 747 clearing $240K Aussie
or QF Second Officer A380 clearing 72,000 British Pounds
So really here is a realistic comparison with how you rank with one of few legacy airlines left in the EU
Perhaps this is why your company cannot make money, flight crew wages likely around 500 million , if you can trim 200 million from that you are back in the black.
Yes Yes I know - flight crew wages have absolutely nothing to do with the mess Qantas is in & putting a couple of pilots on the board is the panacea
25 years BA 747 clearing $165K Aussie
25 years QF 747 clearing $240K Aussie
or QF Second Officer A380 clearing 72,000 British Pounds
So really here is a realistic comparison with how you rank with one of few legacy airlines left in the EU
Perhaps this is why your company cannot make money, flight crew wages likely around 500 million , if you can trim 200 million from that you are back in the black.
Yes Yes I know - flight crew wages have absolutely nothing to do with the mess Qantas is in & putting a couple of pilots on the board is the panacea
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Shortly Alan and Leigh will unveil a billion dollar loss. Engineered or not, its a ridiculous situation where they will operate as the worse politicians under the sun to remain in tenure.
They have already caused enormous angst to thousands for their management skills, delivering many to the queues of centrelink.
The armchair MBA experts that provide such insights on these forums neglect the evidence from the people who work on the front line and have been arking up about what is going on for a very long time.
The conservative nature of most of these dedicated employees is being abused by Leigh and Alan in their right wing ideological fight. All for what?
There is not one metric that anyone can point to that indicates that Jetstar has been the resounding success, be it yield or profit. At the end of the day, that's what counts. BS line in the sand methodologies, NPS, executive bonus schemes, wrong aircraft, the reduction and downgrading of qantas aircraft standards on all routes is what is ultimately going to kill the lot. Including Jetstar. Unfortunately its only the front line staff that have the ability to see what is occurring.
I don't hold Master Cautions optimism. These people will say and do whatever it takes to remain on the their exorbitant wages, until the end.
Can someone please indicate why Lyell and Simon are still in place? I'm scratching my head to work out what exactly they may do or add to the business.
They have already caused enormous angst to thousands for their management skills, delivering many to the queues of centrelink.
The armchair MBA experts that provide such insights on these forums neglect the evidence from the people who work on the front line and have been arking up about what is going on for a very long time.
The conservative nature of most of these dedicated employees is being abused by Leigh and Alan in their right wing ideological fight. All for what?
There is not one metric that anyone can point to that indicates that Jetstar has been the resounding success, be it yield or profit. At the end of the day, that's what counts. BS line in the sand methodologies, NPS, executive bonus schemes, wrong aircraft, the reduction and downgrading of qantas aircraft standards on all routes is what is ultimately going to kill the lot. Including Jetstar. Unfortunately its only the front line staff that have the ability to see what is occurring.
I don't hold Master Cautions optimism. These people will say and do whatever it takes to remain on the their exorbitant wages, until the end.
Can someone please indicate why Lyell and Simon are still in place? I'm scratching my head to work out what exactly they may do or add to the business.
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Blueskymine.
I'd call one QF guy moving on and another 3 staying to date as a pretty low take up rate of over 2000 Qantas pilots.
The current uncertainty (manufactured) of course may lead to more staying and they would hold relatively junior seniority at mainline.
I'd call one QF guy moving on and another 3 staying to date as a pretty low take up rate of over 2000 Qantas pilots.
The current uncertainty (manufactured) of course may lead to more staying and they would hold relatively junior seniority at mainline.
Originally Posted by Mstr Caution
Sit on your hands fellas. AJ's in the hot seat. He's been saying he's going to turn the business around by 2016. Be patient and watch him fail at his current strategy of replacing premium services with low yielding fares.
2 bill in the bank, losing the best part of a bill a year with zero signs of improvement and zero strategy= very little in the kitty for any new management to try salvage the wreck.
Things have to change very soon or the lights may go out.
Hearing things like 'on the brink' from those up the tree isn't a great sign.
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Hotnhigh.
Perhaps my optimism is unfounded. Time will tell.
But what I do think is. Unless AJ turns the titanic around, the whole house of cards collapses.
Bit like deciding whether to amputate a gangrenous limb on not. However, at the moment which limb is affected is hard to ascertain due poor diagnoses.
MC
Perhaps my optimism is unfounded. Time will tell.
But what I do think is. Unless AJ turns the titanic around, the whole house of cards collapses.
Bit like deciding whether to amputate a gangrenous limb on not. However, at the moment which limb is affected is hard to ascertain due poor diagnoses.
MC
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HotnHigh
Not that is not the case you don't have to work for free.
All you have to do is reduce your wages by between 30 to 50% , this will bring you to the wage levels of your competitors, that truly reflect the market rate for the appropriate skill set.
If it is good enough for a BA 747 Capt to clear $165,000 then how can it be justifiable for a QF Capt to clear $240,000 some 50% over and above your BA counterpart.
BA took the hard medicine some years back , strangely enough it was an Irish CEO who like Mr Joyce also attended Trinity College who turned the business around. Do you really want me to post what your Air Canada counterparts get paid - you wages are at least 70% higher. And yes again they to in the 2000s had a restructure where T/Cs had to be transitioned from "iconic" levels to plain simple reality.
What is wrong with an A380 Capt being paid at the very top scale $300K, on a worldwide comparison of say the G20 , really very good coin for the job of being a pilot.
Really there is an easy $200 million saving from flight crew wages.
Larger savings could be made from your Aircraft tradesman, who have a fondness for calling themselves "Engineers" (sans degree), to many , paid way to much for people who have a TAFE level trade qualification. Often the "engineers" are pushing out $120K to 160K , 38 hour week for a tradie , who in many cases has a year 10 education.
Easy 400 million saving on maintenance wages.
Simple equation, do it or like Ansett you will perish.
Not that is not the case you don't have to work for free.
All you have to do is reduce your wages by between 30 to 50% , this will bring you to the wage levels of your competitors, that truly reflect the market rate for the appropriate skill set.
If it is good enough for a BA 747 Capt to clear $165,000 then how can it be justifiable for a QF Capt to clear $240,000 some 50% over and above your BA counterpart.
BA took the hard medicine some years back , strangely enough it was an Irish CEO who like Mr Joyce also attended Trinity College who turned the business around. Do you really want me to post what your Air Canada counterparts get paid - you wages are at least 70% higher. And yes again they to in the 2000s had a restructure where T/Cs had to be transitioned from "iconic" levels to plain simple reality.
What is wrong with an A380 Capt being paid at the very top scale $300K, on a worldwide comparison of say the G20 , really very good coin for the job of being a pilot.
Really there is an easy $200 million saving from flight crew wages.
Larger savings could be made from your Aircraft tradesman, who have a fondness for calling themselves "Engineers" (sans degree), to many , paid way to much for people who have a TAFE level trade qualification. Often the "engineers" are pushing out $120K to 160K , 38 hour week for a tradie , who in many cases has a year 10 education.
Easy 400 million saving on maintenance wages.
Simple equation, do it or like Ansett you will perish.
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Planedriver.
I reckon Alan will be gone before the airline goes.
I can not understand why he still has the institutional shareholders support.
At some stage they have to ask themselves, do they risk loosing the lot on the current management team and strategy.
I reckon Alan will be gone before the airline goes.
I can not understand why he still has the institutional shareholders support.
At some stage they have to ask themselves, do they risk loosing the lot on the current management team and strategy.
FlyboatNorth, once again you are full of sh...t! On good authority you will find that BA LH Captains with 25 years service are on about 152,000 pounds with all the extras that translates into 275,000 AUD at the current market rates..pls do not post anymore crap on this forum and grow up!!
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Flyboatnorth.
Like Ansett?
Where you aware they did do that? Reduce wages.
Ansett version II reduced wages considerably and operated one aircraft type and they still failed.
So the answer doesn't always exist in reduced wages.
Reduce wages or perish - say hi to Alan & Liv for us.
Like Ansett?
Where you aware they did do that? Reduce wages.
Ansett version II reduced wages considerably and operated one aircraft type and they still failed.
So the answer doesn't always exist in reduced wages.
Reduce wages or perish - say hi to Alan & Liv for us.
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cynpil , Your numbers are dead right mate
Our boys are on North of $400K , as I said at least 50% higher
The iconic QF second officers are biting at the heels of a BA 747 Capt in the wage stakes
Our boys are on North of $400K , as I said at least 50% higher
The iconic QF second officers are biting at the heels of a BA 747 Capt in the wage stakes