300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

[V-Jet]

Paul Keating said in discussions that had been PM he would have simply left Weeman out in the cold until the board came to reality and they shook the company up to solve its problems.

The options were either Weeman/Clifford went or the airline was stuffed.

The airline is now stuffed.

My suggestion was for everyone to simply go sick after the lockout until the incompetents had nothing left. And if it got to where I thought it should go I'm sure 'Management' would have missed their $200,000+ per fortnight more than I would have missed my $200k per year.

I've run companies and spoken to a large number of quite wealthy business owners about this and they, like me, cannot understand any company could behave the way QF did and is. It is nonsensical behaviour and was the final nail in the coffin for most of them as to why they wouldn't fly QF again unless they could help it. Which, being fair, these idiots are solving for everyone - QF simply doesn't fly anywhere anymore so all this argument is really wasted. They have killed the airline. Personally I would have preferred staff to kill it who in many cases been doing their best for 40+ years over some incompetent buffoon who had been there 3, but the game has just about played out now.

It's impressive that neither Hirohito nor Hitler could kill Qantas, but an odious and incompetent Irishman managed it, seemingly effortlessly.

And on the Jetstar disaster, what flying has the 78 been doing of late? It seems to be following on in the footsteps of Weemans triumphant Jetstar HKG fleet in Toulouse.

He could have saved a lot of time and simply sent them to Longreach to preserve in pristine condition for future generations. One day, they will be worth a lot of money I guess to archeologists or 22nd Century Aviation Tragics

[34R]

The Job Security clause was never about a guaranteed job for life.

As far I was aware, in very basic terms it referred to a mindset that if an aeroplane had a Qantas tail on it, then it was to be crewed by a Qantas crew.

[LAME2]

I think he had two other options:

I'm with this man. Always another option. I believe if he went to FWA and said stop or I'm shutting the place down. He could have timed it then for the Government to call and tell the unions to back off. He would have walked out with the airline intact and no disruption to the public. Legally he may have only made the decision when he got out of bed that fateful Saturday morning. But in practice and probably morally, it was made weeks if not months before and the day they ordered the purchasing of hotel rooms should have been the day the courts decided his actions were legally started.

But the worlds not always fair.

[Tuner 2]

Except they didn't get their 'throats slit' - they got a payrise and still have the best terms and conditions in the country (rightly or wrongly).

What have "stop work, work to rule, refusing MEL, increased fuel burn, duty extension bans" ever got any other pilot group - apart from terms and conditions still far inferior to mainline's?

[Cesspool182]

For those of you who think our salaries are over the top. A reality check.


QF BASE PAY

12 years of service with QF.

A380 CAPTAIN $310,236 FIRST OFFICER $204,790 SECOND OFFICER $159,380

B747 CAPTAIN $295,560 FIRST OFFICER $195,030 SECOND OFFICER $141,788

A330 CAPTAIN $281,486 FIRST OFFICER $185,736 SECOND OFFICER $144,539

B767 CAPTAIN $252,500 FIRST OFFICER $166,637 SECOND OFFICER $129,782

Many second officers don’t have 12 years in the company, but most have 6 years or more:



A380 SECOND OFFICER (6th year) $140,577

B747 SECOND OFFICER (6th year) $133,880

A330 SECOND OFFICER (6th year) $127,483

B767 SECOND OFFICER (6th year) $114,525

Here endith the lesson.

[V-Jet]

I'm only cherry picking and skimming responses, but:

You wonder why you had your throat slit.

Qantas had its throat slit, not the staff. And if it is anything more than incompetence then the Australian taxpayer has not only been fooled but held to ransom (Sunfish long standing thoughts) by Wall St. Either way, Weeman and his puppeteers are set for their Rassecasse seats in Monaco for life with the wreckage at least several jurisdictions away. Closer to home, GOOD staff (the junk in HQ remains, it's filtering lower and lower) are leaving or have left in droves. To whit, most of my course have left for greener (well, mostly sandier) pastures.

I would have got very medieval on their asses with some pipe swingin' gentlemen from the Land of Rand and several blowtorches if I could. The ties I saw only as an interesting museum piece. For me that lunatic stand down was the final straw. Aside from deep personal feelings I will not suffer a cent's loss when these clowns create ground zero out of a world beating Aussie Icon - which is the primary reason I feel 'free' to say what I suspect few will.

It is THE financial disaster of Australian business business for at least the last 50 years.

[The Banjo]

OK, I'll bite........

If you consider that those figures to be fair and reasonable BASE salaries then you have been living in a parallel universe, hugging your teddy bear and having your Mummy rub baby oil into your tum tum for too long......

Command salaries OK, The industry standard for an F/O around 60 percent of Captain. No wonder you are full of lifestyle leeches. The gravy chain is about to break.....

[Ollie Onion]

Banjo, I was thinking the same. That list is meant to show us that your salaries aren't over the top?

My goodness, those salaries are extremely good but I would think quite unsustainable. Starting to think some of you guys have lost touch with reality, when you think publishing those sorts of 'base' salaries will make us all realise your salaries are reasonable in today's climate.

[V-Jet]

God in heaven....

Of the 7out of 12 guys from my course that have left QF, ALL have had more take home pay and benefits (like being treated like people instead of the enemy) elsewhere. BUT, all would prefer to be working at their 'old jobs' back home - except they see no future in the airline they have worked 25+ years for.

Where are comparisons for completely screwed up aircraft choices, massive fuel burn losses and stacked management on unbelievable salaries and parking new aircraft around the place?

Why this fixation with salaries which are 100% line ball with what you will get around the world. And I include Easy/Ryan etc in that group.

I wouldn't care if the CEO earns $20m a year - IF they were doing a good job.

By what measure should any of them still be there???

For those 'arguing' against staff (who know the business) by what benchmark has the current management team been in any way successful? Except in dollar earnings of course, I accept their outstanding achievements in that field of endeavour....


PS: Still waiting on an answer for the 787 question... What ARE theses amazing money making machines actually doing?

[Angle of Attack]

Why does a S/O on the A330 get more than an S/O on the 744? Either way I doubt the accuracy of this list, but its probably not far off. You forgot to include the 737? That is a mainline fleet that is completely inline with industry standards...

[V-Jet]

Why does a S/O on the A330 get more than an S/O on the 744?

Just a guess - divisor differences? Ie: through the massive efficiencies achieved through fleet reductions and parking programs, many are doing less work than others..

Don't ever forget the S/O thing saves big bucks through not needing double crews - 2 x Capts, 2 x F/O's. It's a very cost effective solution for those that think its map folding. They are, for all intents and purposes, F/O's without the pay.

[ballsdeep]

U got balls publishing those figures…. i like it.

[Hempy]

Well to be honest, their actions lowered the conditions, so at least they are consistent by claiming those conditions were too high anyway. What happens when QFA pilots are on J* wages, where do you think the next J* EBA might go?

[Keg]

Why does a S/O on the A330 get more than an S/O on the 744?

They don't. I suspect typo.

Personally putting up 'base' pay is misleading. Given the overtime on the 380 and the 744 the reality is a long way north...... and most crew on other fleets and perhaps some on those fleets will agree re their sustainability.

I've already voiced my thoughts re the pay rates on various fleets. Given how contentious they were I'm surprised they didn't spark more angst. They're a couple of pages back now.

[Tankengine]

Basically S/Os make 50% of Captain's pay while F/Os make 65%.
You can argue whether this is the way it should be or not, it is the fact at the moment.

[Blueskymine]

And we all know a pilots salary is at least 25-50% higher than the base salary with overtime, work day offs, meals (it's still income). The longhaul guys are always in overtime due to long sectors. A third of it is sleeping in the bunk. I mean the QF guys are getting 31000 yen for a Narita overnight. Then whinging they have to change the money back to AU because they can't spend it....

[ruprecht]

Given the overtime on the 380 and the 744 the reality is a long way north...... and most crew on other fleets and perhaps some on those fleets will agree re their sustainability.

Yup.

Gonna give yours back, Keg?

[neville_nobody]

Joyce is just lucky that Gillard was gutless. Keating said in his interview with Kerry O'Brian if he was PM he would have told him to sort it out himself.......then he would have been screwed.

[Potsie Weber]

QF 737 CPT 696hrs (base) $185,250.

From the pay thread:

TIGER A320 CPT 692hrs $195,700 Base ($171k)

Yes, QF pilots are way overpaid.

Also remember that soon there will be no 767 and maybe even no 747 pay rates. Anyone else heard the rumour of trying to get some A330 rates under the shorthaul award? Wonder what that is about?

That might just leave a very small bunch of uber-wealthy skygods on the A380 (if that is still around). The rest may become some of the least paid pilots in Australia.

Who are we going to pick on then? Those Tiger pilots have it so good?

[Keg]

Gonna give yours back, Keg?

I ain't on the 380 or the 744 at the moment so nothing to give back for me.

Interesting point though that I'm on record when I was on the 744 as stating that it wasn't a fair rate given the wrokrate and effort and wondering if it was sustainable. I'm also on record stating that asking for (and getting) the extra 5% for the A380 above and beyond th 744 was continuing to shoot ourselves in the foot.

The irony that the rates of pay on the 380 and 744 which have contributed in part to my likely demotion will be coming my way with that dentin is not lost on me or the multitude of 767 F/Os who are going to get a pay rise and lifestyle improvement but will be frustrated with the job.

PS: That base pay quoted for a 767 driver will get you about 830 hours if fostered efficiently. Perhaps 800 if they do little flying on the reserve.