JetStar NZ
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Remoak you're a pragmatic and sensible bloke but you have just made me laugh, by busting out that bloody Boeing pilot-shortage nonsense.
Your arguments so far have been
1 - it's OK to take the shafting, because it's still better than the shafting you'll receive in kiwi GA.
Can't argue with that.
( And while we're on the subject, all you guys who are now pointing the finger at Jetstar for lowering the bar, what have you been doing the last 40 years, while the cynical pr!cks in GA have been setting the bar so damn low in the first place. Why is it suddenly pure evil for Jetstar to pay 200 hour pilots a $50 grand salary, when the cheapskate flying schools and para drop operators and scenic charter companies all over the country have been paying their people sub minimum wage or zero for bloody decades, and nobody's cared or lifted a damn finger to help, least of all that bastion of pilot protection called NZALPA. If anyone is serious about trying to improve the lot of ALL pilots in this country, lets start by making a serious minimum award wage for GA and come down like a ton of bricks on people who try to get around it. Then at least young guys will have a realistic alternative option to cadet schemes like this. )
2 - It's OK to take the shafting, because it's better than being an unemployed uncurrent 200 hour wonder, and you never know when another 9/11 is just around the corner
Can't argue with that either.
3 - it's OK to take the shafting, because there's a huge pilot shortage around the corner and you want to be ready for it
errrrr ... no. Sorry bro but going down that road just leads to madness and misery and flying school marketing hype. The "upcoming pilot shortage" has been the cause of more unemployed CPL holders, unpaid student loans, "C" cat exploitation, and certain 
ers at flying schools getting rich at sucker's expense, than just about anything else I can think of on this earth.
If I thought for a second that good times were just about to roll, I'd be doing the exact opposite, I'd be telling these guys NOT to take the scheme and hold out for better. Sadly, I don't think that is the case at all.
Phoenix :
Short answer is, F/O's yes, definitely, captains not really. Do your research and you'll find that F/O's at Easy and Ryan were paid a lot more in the '90s than they are now. Mainly because once a cadet scheme gets well established, they simply stop hiring people on the "old" F/O contracts altogether. They didn't really introduce the cadet schemes until post 9/11, they used to hire experienced guys to the right seat up to that point and then changed their policy it seems. Captains have a lot more power to resist that kind of nonsense, if F/O's go on strike then Michael O'leary has a tendency to just sack them outright or deny them their upgrades or something, he's got a lot less power to do that to the captains, although he talks tough.
Your arguments so far have been
1 - it's OK to take the shafting, because it's still better than the shafting you'll receive in kiwi GA.
Can't argue with that.( And while we're on the subject, all you guys who are now pointing the finger at Jetstar for lowering the bar, what have you been doing the last 40 years, while the cynical pr!cks in GA have been setting the bar so damn low in the first place. Why is it suddenly pure evil for Jetstar to pay 200 hour pilots a $50 grand salary, when the cheapskate flying schools and para drop operators and scenic charter companies all over the country have been paying their people sub minimum wage or zero for bloody decades, and nobody's cared or lifted a damn finger to help, least of all that bastion of pilot protection called NZALPA. If anyone is serious about trying to improve the lot of ALL pilots in this country, lets start by making a serious minimum award wage for GA and come down like a ton of bricks on people who try to get around it. Then at least young guys will have a realistic alternative option to cadet schemes like this. )
2 - It's OK to take the shafting, because it's better than being an unemployed uncurrent 200 hour wonder, and you never know when another 9/11 is just around the corner
Can't argue with that either.3 - it's OK to take the shafting, because there's a huge pilot shortage around the corner and you want to be ready for it
errrrr ... no. Sorry bro but going down that road just leads to madness and misery and flying school marketing hype. The "upcoming pilot shortage" has been the cause of more unemployed CPL holders, unpaid student loans, "C" cat exploitation, and certain ers at flying schools getting rich at sucker's expense, than just about anything else I can think of on this earth.If I thought for a second that good times were just about to roll, I'd be doing the exact opposite, I'd be telling these guys NOT to take the scheme and hold out for better. Sadly, I don't think that is the case at all.
Phoenix :
Also I'd be interested if you could find something that backed up the theory that cadet programs over the UK have resulted in a decline in pay for those beyond the cadets. Have the FO's or the Capts started taking pay drops because of the programs resulting in the increase in demand?
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To PhoenixNZ
"airlines have no interest in losing all that established experience. Not the mention the PR disaster when the public start thinking the guys in the cockpit are unhappy because of ongoing pay disputes."
Maybe you need to check out the comments of Alan Joyce, the CEO of Qantas, with reference to the pilots they employ - called them "kamikazis". QF Long-haul pilots have now voted for industrial action for the first time in 45 years. He doesn't give a toss about their experience or what the public thinks. Unlikely the CEO's of other airlines in the world are any different.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Hope you don't get shafted too often!
"airlines have no interest in losing all that established experience. Not the mention the PR disaster when the public start thinking the guys in the cockpit are unhappy because of ongoing pay disputes."
Maybe you need to check out the comments of Alan Joyce, the CEO of Qantas, with reference to the pilots they employ - called them "kamikazis". QF Long-haul pilots have now voted for industrial action for the first time in 45 years. He doesn't give a toss about their experience or what the public thinks. Unlikely the CEO's of other airlines in the world are any different.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Hope you don't get shafted too often!
PhoenixNZ
Unless there have been major changes to orginal Jetstar cadet deal that was being discussed the salary was indeed about 60K NZD BUT with Jetstar taking repayments out of the salary for some of the training they had helped fund. This made the actual salary paid about 40K NZD possibly less, I saw figures of 24K AUD equivalent being bandied about. Plus you could expect to live in cities like Darwin where the cost of living is quite high and still be able to service the debt on the loan you had from your training. This salary was to continue for the duration of the 6 year bonding period with no guarantee of employment after that 6 year period. Tell me at the end of 6 years that it was such a smart deal.
Very true. That's why cadets get shafted so easily, there's a bountiful supply of hopefuls prepared to spend a bucket load of their money or their parents money or most likely borrowed money to get a job flying a shiny jet. As I mentioned previously in Europe now it's gone way past paying for type ratings, (something that was almost unheard of many years ago) to cadets paying for "500 hours line training". How long before we see that sort of thing here?
Give me a break, 500 hours line training!!!!!!!!! FFS if some new pilot needs 500 hours line training they should be looking for another career. This is purely and simply a way for greedy unscrupulous airline mangers to reduce their costs and increase their profits. The Jetstar cadet scheme is just another money making venture to ensure a steady supply of pilots so that there is no need to pay a worthwhile salary.
PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?
I believe the starting rate for a JQ cadet is actually around $64k, not $40k. This is also a STARTING rate and not the same as what you could be expected to earn over the entire course of your career.
Pilot demand is on the rise and the amount that any driver gets paid is based on the oldest economic model of all: Supply and Demand.
Give me a break, 500 hours line training!!!!!!!!! FFS if some new pilot needs 500 hours line training they should be looking for another career. This is purely and simply a way for greedy unscrupulous airline mangers to reduce their costs and increase their profits. The Jetstar cadet scheme is just another money making venture to ensure a steady supply of pilots so that there is no need to pay a worthwhile salary.
PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?
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PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?
In return: Why is getting a type rating on a popular aircraft along with significant hours on type a negative for the cadet concerned?
Why is a starting rate of $64k a year (thats the amount your getting paid, yes you have to pay back your loan but salary is salary) a negative thing.
Why should a new CPL go into instructing for 30k a year or even GA for 40k a year (if your lucky) when they can go into Jetstar for 64k a year and come out with far more relevant airline experience than instructing or GA?
It seems 27/09 that you are focussed on comparing old JQ F/O to new JQ F/O pay rates.
I'm instead comparing new JQ F/O pay rates to instructor or GA pay rates. Also factoring in the the experience and hours and type ratings you end up with at the end of it. In this regard JQ beats GA hands down in all areas concerned.
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Remoak you say,
Agreed, where we part dramatically in view is; This upcoming shortage is precisely why the likes of Jetstar are frantically trying to lower T+C's and then to LOCK the victim into these T+C's.
This "locking in" of appalling terms is achieved in numerous ways,
1/ Get em while they're young in aviation experience (haven't had to take any pineapples yet so will be far less wary when first asked to bend over).
2/ Bond them for years
3/ Keep em on the financial treadmill by paying just enough to get by, but never ahead.
4/ Also I suspect every couple of years or so, there will be a requirement to relocate to another base at the large expense of the cadet (plus the uprooting of the family, lost jobs etc.). You know just to remind them who's boss.
5/ The ATPL question remains. These guys MAY not be upgradable at the end of their bond period. Whadayareckon Jetstar will do with them then?
Now go and work out the training capacity for all those new pilots. Guess what... supply doesn't even come close to matching demand. In fact it is going to be a major issue for airlines. Pilots are going to be in serious demand.
This "locking in" of appalling terms is achieved in numerous ways,
1/ Get em while they're young in aviation experience (haven't had to take any pineapples yet so will be far less wary when first asked to bend over).
2/ Bond them for years
3/ Keep em on the financial treadmill by paying just enough to get by, but never ahead.
4/ Also I suspect every couple of years or so, there will be a requirement to relocate to another base at the large expense of the cadet (plus the uprooting of the family, lost jobs etc.). You know just to remind them who's boss.
5/ The ATPL question remains. These guys MAY not be upgradable at the end of their bond period. Whadayareckon Jetstar will do with them then?
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When is 64K not 64K?
Phoenix,
Mate, if it makes you feel better to say "I'm on a 64k salary", then good luck to you! But when you're paying around 1/3 of it back to the company to be on an effective 40k for six years, then you're only fooling yourself.
Last I heard, rents in Darwin are around $200 - $250 pw for one room in a shared flat! Care to do the math on that and see how much money you've got in your pocket?
(Suggest you do some research on the Colgan air crash in Buffalo NY in Feb 2009. IMHO, the main cause behind the crash was fatigue. No wonder really, as both crew were paid so badly they couldn't live in the city where they were based. The captain commuted from Seattle to NY, and the FO commuted from Florida to NY.
)
Sure, you'll be flying an A320, setting yourself up for the great jet job somewhere overseas for 150K, blah blah blah...
What this really translates to is that you're about to go on a career path that will have you flying jets while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the Flight Attendants stations on turnarounds looking for extra food.
Live the dream!
Why is a starting rate of $64k a year (thats the amount your getting paid, yes you have to pay back your loan but salary is salary) a negative thing.
But when you're paying around 1/3 of it back to the company to be on an effective 40k for six years, then you're only fooling yourself. Last I heard, rents in Darwin are around $200 - $250 pw for one room in a shared flat! Care to do the math on that and see how much money you've got in your pocket?
(Suggest you do some research on the Colgan air crash in Buffalo NY in Feb 2009. IMHO, the main cause behind the crash was fatigue. No wonder really, as both crew were paid so badly they couldn't live in the city where they were based. The captain commuted from Seattle to NY, and the FO commuted from Florida to NY.
)Sure, you'll be flying an A320, setting yourself up for the great jet job somewhere overseas for 150K, blah blah blah...
What this really translates to is that you're about to go on a career path that will have you flying jets while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the Flight Attendants stations on turnarounds looking for extra food.
Live the dream!
And in six years time that overseas airline is only going to offer 'just enough' to attract the $64K crowd. That $150K job is only going to be $100K by then. The same market forces that dictate that JStar is only going to pay just above GA wages to attract a cadet is going to be at work for Middle East and Asian carriers recruting FOs from 2nd tier carriers. Hence the cycle (or spiral dive) continues. Things look good if you are only capable of looking one step in to the future, but if you are able to project more than that, the picture starts to look grim.
Here endeth the lesson...
Here endeth the lesson...
Last edited by theheadmaster; 27th Jul 2011 at 01:33.
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I have a question for you all:
If this scheme is so profitable and beneficial for JQ, why is it only being introduced now? As in why wasn't it introduced 10 years ago and why aren't ALL the airlines doing it?
If this scheme is so profitable and beneficial for JQ, why is it only being introduced now? As in why wasn't it introduced 10 years ago and why aren't ALL the airlines doing it?
Hullo there
I will answer your question with a question...
If you are a huge sellout scab, and no-one is here to tell you that, are you still a sellout scab?
Fantastic how you attempt to use the 'what's best for my family line' in an attempt to justify your self serving position. if you indeed had your family's best interest in mind, you wouldn't be getting into aviation with a very young family.
But to answer your question, paying for type ratings has been happening for over 10 years now in Aus. Before this time however, there seemed to be some weight placed on EXPERIENCE instead of one's ability to bend over and accept pineapples sans lube. But, disregard all this information as is doesn't agree with your concept of what you think aviation is.
Straight home and don't spare the horses.
I will answer your question with a question...
If you are a huge sellout scab, and no-one is here to tell you that, are you still a sellout scab?
Fantastic how you attempt to use the 'what's best for my family line' in an attempt to justify your self serving position. if you indeed had your family's best interest in mind, you wouldn't be getting into aviation with a very young family.
But to answer your question, paying for type ratings has been happening for over 10 years now in Aus. Before this time however, there seemed to be some weight placed on EXPERIENCE instead of one's ability to bend over and accept pineapples sans lube. But, disregard all this information as is doesn't agree with your concept of what you think aviation is.
Straight home and don't spare the horses.
I recall talking to colleagues 15 years ago stating that the 'cadet' courses of the day would lead to this. I noted that if you took people with very little experience it would soon be a matter of time for the conditions offered being reduced to reflect the value of the asset. Getting people to self-fund and reduce conditions further is the next logical step.
This process has been evolving for a lot longer than your 10 year time frame Phoenix.
This process has been evolving for a lot longer than your 10 year time frame Phoenix.
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So HomeJames we should do whats best for the existing drivers instead of whats best for ourselves?
No one is selling out. Your saying that people should decline an opportunity simply because it doesn't fit with your version of what aviation is.
Dont blame a guy for taking an opportunity that you dont like. Blame instead the people who offered the opportunity in the first place.
Industries change over time. Aviation has been fairly static in this regarding for quite some time. Now the change is coming and all those existing drivers are simply averse to a change that they dont like. Sorry but maybe those drivers simply need to harden up and make the best of it.
Cadets are the new way forward for airline training. You dont have to like it but if you dont accept it you'll simply be a dinosaur waiting for extinction.
If however you can think of an alternative way for airlines to achieve the required result of reducing costs while maintaining saftey and service, feel free to tell them. Or express it here.
You all like to knock cadet schemes and yet no one has as yet given an alternative other than to maintain the status quo which was established 40 years ago. Clearly the status quo isn't working for the airlines like it used to.
No one is selling out. Your saying that people should decline an opportunity simply because it doesn't fit with your version of what aviation is.
Dont blame a guy for taking an opportunity that you dont like. Blame instead the people who offered the opportunity in the first place.
Industries change over time. Aviation has been fairly static in this regarding for quite some time. Now the change is coming and all those existing drivers are simply averse to a change that they dont like. Sorry but maybe those drivers simply need to harden up and make the best of it.
Cadets are the new way forward for airline training. You dont have to like it but if you dont accept it you'll simply be a dinosaur waiting for extinction.
If however you can think of an alternative way for airlines to achieve the required result of reducing costs while maintaining saftey and service, feel free to tell them. Or express it here.
You all like to knock cadet schemes and yet no one has as yet given an alternative other than to maintain the status quo which was established 40 years ago. Clearly the status quo isn't working for the airlines like it used to.
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I have a question for you all:
If this scheme is so profitable and beneficial for JQ, why is it only being introduced now? As in why wasn't it introduced 10 years ago and why aren't ALL the airlines doing it?
If this scheme is so profitable and beneficial for JQ, why is it only being introduced now? As in why wasn't it introduced 10 years ago and why aren't ALL the airlines doing it?
From their Website
Jetstar Airways Pty Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Qantas Group, with its Australian low fare operations first commencing in May 2004.
Short answer they werent even frikkin around 10 years ago
Interesting to not Phoenix's location and which just so happens to coincide with the where CTC are who are doing the training for Ab-initio and Advanced cadets. So maybe hes defending the program deep from within their own bunkers in downtown Hamilton NZ.
If the status quo is changing how about a cadet scheme for Airline Executive positions? Now sign me up for that
If times are tough like they say I will believe it when the very top starts taking pay cuts to their salaries and bonuses.
Phoenix, costs are going down, but so is service, safety and conditions. You might be happy to be on the conditions you sign up for. Good for you. Now, in five years time, what will you do if someone states they are happy to do your job for 30% less? What is your response when they tell you to 'harden up and make the best of it'?
Market forces are what is driving conditions down. Attitudes like yours make the job of airline management easy. These guys are good at manipulating your joy of aviation in to their reduced bottom line. That is what they are trained at doing. Pilots are good at flying aircraft and making conservative short term decisions. With a little cooperation and intelligence we can help stop this rot. Nobody wants to take your job away, in fact what guys are arguing for is to help you maximise the pay you can get for the job you love doing.
Unfortunately, everyone who accepts lower conditions than the guy ahead of them reduces not only their own conditions, but also everyone else in the industry and reduces your own chances of that next well paying job.
I guess, as a group, pilots are too dumb to use the market forces in their own favour rather than being shafted by much more savvy management.
Market forces are what is driving conditions down. Attitudes like yours make the job of airline management easy. These guys are good at manipulating your joy of aviation in to their reduced bottom line. That is what they are trained at doing. Pilots are good at flying aircraft and making conservative short term decisions. With a little cooperation and intelligence we can help stop this rot. Nobody wants to take your job away, in fact what guys are arguing for is to help you maximise the pay you can get for the job you love doing.
Unfortunately, everyone who accepts lower conditions than the guy ahead of them reduces not only their own conditions, but also everyone else in the industry and reduces your own chances of that next well paying job.
I guess, as a group, pilots are too dumb to use the market forces in their own favour rather than being shafted by much more savvy management.
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Some people have lost sight of a few very very simple truths:
1. JQ and every other airline in the world are COMPANIES. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. You make money by increasing profits and reducing costs.
2. A company will reach a point where its unable to reduce costs any further because the employees will simply rebel and they will have a company with no staff or ineffective staff.
3. A company can only run this sort of program as long as there are people there willing to take it up. So clearly there is a significant demand for this sort of program in order for it to exist in the first place.
I repeat my previous challenge to all those drivers out there who dislike the cadets who are taking up this sort of program:
Put yourselves back in the shoes you were in when you started your career in GA. If you were offered this program would you honestly have said not because of the same reasons your telling me that I should say no?
1. JQ and every other airline in the world are COMPANIES. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. You make money by increasing profits and reducing costs.
2. A company will reach a point where its unable to reduce costs any further because the employees will simply rebel and they will have a company with no staff or ineffective staff.
3. A company can only run this sort of program as long as there are people there willing to take it up. So clearly there is a significant demand for this sort of program in order for it to exist in the first place.
I repeat my previous challenge to all those drivers out there who dislike the cadets who are taking up this sort of program:
Put yourselves back in the shoes you were in when you started your career in GA. If you were offered this program would you honestly have said not because of the same reasons your telling me that I should say no?
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They will only hire DECs until they have enough experienced F/Os to upgrade. I doubt the DEC recruitment will last more than a year, and by the time those cadets are ready for commands, DECs will be a distant memory.
OK Phoenix, use your company analogy and think of yourself as a company. You have a service to sell. How are you going to get the best price for that service if there is competition? Ask Qantas, they set up a cartel and fixed the price 
You see, they don't play by the rules.
You see, they don't play by the rules.
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Now, in five years time, what will you do if someone states they are happy to do your job for 30% less? What is your response when they tell you to 'harden up and make the best of it'?
I'm not asking anyone to be happy about cadet schemes. By all means dislike the schemes. But disliking those who use those schemes is just petty. Why should you dislike someone for taking the opportunity that best suited them at the time?
Market forces are what is driving conditions down. Attitudes like yours make the job of airline management easy. These guys are good at manipulating your joy of aviation in to their reduced bottom line. That is what they are trained at doing. Pilots are good at flying aircraft and making conservative short term decisions. With a little cooperation and intelligence we can help stop this rot. Nobody wants to take your job away, in fact what guys are arguing for is to help you maximise the pay you can get for the job you love doing.
An attitude of I want to take the best opportunities I can? Your assuming that if the cadet scheme were to fail that the airlines wouldn't do something else like simply give everyone a pay cut.
The airlines want to reduce costs one way or another and if this way doesn't work they will without a doubt try other ways which may well be less pleasant. Less hours, less pay, less fringe benefits.
At least this way the existing pilots arent negatively impacted in their current roles. None of them to my knowledge has had any pay cuts recently or any major reduction in hours in favour of the new cadets. Especially seeing as their contracts would make it very very difficult for JQ or any other airline to do that.
Unfortunately, everyone who accepts lower conditions than the guy ahead of them reduces not only their own conditions, but also everyone else in the industry and reduces your own chances of that next well paying job.
The simple truth is that if I dont accept the cadetship there are ten other people behind me who will. Therefore what do I gain by declining?
I guess, as a group, pilots are too dumb to use the market forces in their own favour rather than being shafted by much more savvy management.
Your probably not far off to be honest. If drivers really wanted to stop these kind of cadet schemes then they likely have it within their power to do so. The fact that they choose not to either means they are lazy or stupid. Take your pick.
In the mean time those of us new to the industry will simply make the most of what we have.
If a GA job were to pay the same as an airline job at the start then I'd happily take either a GA or airline job. But it simply isn't the case.
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Some people have lost sight of a few very very simple truths:
1. JQ and every other airline in the world are COMPANIES. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. You make money by increasing profits and reducing costs.
2. A company will reach a point where its unable to reduce costs any further because the employees will simply rebel and they will have a company with no staff or ineffective staff.
3. A company can only run this sort of program as long as there are people there willing to take it up. So clearly there is a significant demand for this sort of program in order for it to exist in the first place
Put yourselves back in the shoes you were in when you started your career in GA. If you were offered this program would you honestly have said not because of the same reasons your telling me that I should say no?
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PhoenixNZ
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of your points. Good on you for putting your head above the parapet. You come across well researched and offer balanced, well thought out arguments.
I guess what I am saying is that you seem very switched on to me.
This is the bit that worries me most...
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of your points. Good on you for putting your head above the parapet. You come across well researched and offer balanced, well thought out arguments.
I guess what I am saying is that you seem very switched on to me.
This is the bit that worries me most...
I don't expect you, or people like you, not to take the jobs. That is not realistic and I don't expect it to happen. I am just trying to explain your position (pawn) in the big game. Airlines only make money if the big jets are in the air, and they cannot do it if the pilots withdraw their labour. It is the job of those already in the industry to put their balls on the line and do something about it. That is in fact what Qantas pilots are trying to do right now. What it will take to make industry wide change is for people like you to recognize the dangers and unsustainability of the present trend and be ready to do what is necessary to preserve conditions when you have the job, rather than shrug your shoulders and say it is inevitable and leave the hard work to others. Remember that the high starting point for conditions that are now being eroded did not happen by chance. They were fought for and won by people who were willing to stand up for themselves. Conditions will continue to erode while people are unwilling to stand up for themselves.