Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific


Old 14th Aug 2011, 12:13
  #161 (permalink)  
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Doesn't matter what AIPA do the Murdoch papers are going to continue to pedal their anti-union rubbish. The fact that QF is not having it all their own way suggests that AIPA is getting traction but they simply don't have the network or the budget to take Qantas head on. What they have at the moment is the moral high ground. Unlike Qantas and NewsCorp.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 12:24
  #162 (permalink)  
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That is probably about the fifth peice from News Limited in as many weeks that basically cut+pastes strait off of Qantas' email
Yeah, and don't forget that News Ltd had a lot to do with the demise of Ansett as well, in my view. I stopped buying their papers years ago because of this.

Sounds like the Q media people rang themselves up three thousand times complaining about the pilots PAs then wrote a press release.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 12:58
  #163 (permalink)  
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He he he....found this today.

Learn how a Qantas pilot is trained to be the best in the world

I know it's a few years old but they might want to delete this one too.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 20:50
  #164 (permalink)  
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What is funny is the press releases that are stretching the truth to say the least.

Qantas swamped with passenger complaints over pilots' gripes | Herald Sun

Frequent flyer of Qld Posted at 9:09 PM August 14, 2011 As a platinum flyer I support the pilots in the current dispute. They are the only good thing happening in the business.
Grey Posted at 4:21 PM August 14, 2011I for one am not swallowing this spin from the Qantas PR department. Show us the proof of passengers complaining. The Qantas Pilots website is transparent with an open discussion board but tellingly the Qantas PR website is not. Why not Q?This omission speaks volumes about their supposed facts.
James Lodge Posted at 2:44 PM August 14, 2011 That is not the feedback the pilots are getting from the passengers. Perhaps before printing the Qantas media release you should contact the other party for a balanced coverage.
James Cameron of Sydney Posted at 11:59 AM August 14, 2011When will people realize that this dispute is not about pay?
JohnK Posted at 11:30 AM August 14, 2011I think this article should have the title "Qantas swamped with passenger complaints about poor service." This is just Qantas propaganda. I have been on Qantas flights where passengers clapped the pilot's announcement. There seems to be overwhelming support for the pilots. I want a Qantas pilot flying my Qantas plane. I support the pilots in their dispute.
whereas the 'inundation' of complaints on twitter on the last few days at

has gone something like
LeighLiving Leigh Livingstone

@QantasAirways Now flights at over $200 more than when I started and error msgs still happening. Poor tactics Qantas. Might go with AirNZ

10 Aug
NickJDalton Nick

.@QantasAirways won't let me do online check in. #rage.

10 Aug
thebeercellar Colin Hession

@QantasAirways you guys cancelled a Dublin to London leg of a dublin to Perth flight, what's the story, no notification, what's the story!!

10 Aug
LusciousLani Luscious Lani @

@QantasAirways about your phone lines - why does it take so long to get through to a human? I can never get through in emergencies.

11 Aug
Katy_Potaty Katy Potaty

If you're on a @QantasAirways flight & your pink case doesn't show up at Destination, it's on tarmac at Sydney!

12 Aug
marniehobbs Marnie Hobbs

@QantasAirways you are a joke! Cancelled flight few hrs frm departure. Can't change online & now on hold over 30min to a 1300 (costing me $)

16 hours ago

I'm looking back over the last week and can't find a single complaint about pilot PA's directed to @QantasAirways

Now @JetstarAirways on the other hand, the latest tweet
choox75 james spiropoulos @

@JetstarAirways it should be renamed #****star

19 hours ago
the first of many, many tweets of a similar tone.

So once again, the truth is lost in search of a headline. From where I sit, based upon the opinion of real people that is transparently visible and on the public record, the PR battle is hardly in the corporate court.

Maybe those complaints are from the 'strategy' consultants Bain&Co on their free travel, or maybe their lawyers at Allens Arthur Robinson, or maybe their accountants at KPMG, or maybe their Jetstar flight or cabin crew positioning in Qantas J class to their next port. Maybe it was from a director on one of their many FREE flights they get per year which is an otherwise exorbitant claim by staff not in the corporate level.

Maybe its just something corporate types will never 'get', they don't understand life at the ground level. Like the rich snobs in London wondering why the massively unemployed totally disenfranchised underclass just went bezerk. The fact that statements are released to the media as fact playing an entire country for a bunch of idiots whose thought process is controllable shows what contempt those at the top of the corporate circle jerk/matey matey 'you can be a director on my board and I can be a director on your board' have for the mere plebs who work for them.

The latest QGS offer of ramp staff proves this.
"want to work terrible hours which aren't guaranteed with **** pay ? click 'apply now'!"
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 23:18
  #165 (permalink)  
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Hogan must be looking forward to the 24th

Gulf poised to snap up rich Qantas travellers

ANY moves by Qantas to cut international routes or swap to no-frills Jetstar services will lead to Middle Eastern and Asian airlines swooping on its valuable passengers, Australian aviation dynamo James Hogan, of Etihad Airways, says.

In nine days Qantas is due to announce the outcome of its deepest review of its international services, prompted by anticipated losses of $200 million this year from the division.

The review has fuelled speculation Qantas might axe flights between Los Angeles and New York, with question marks hovering over Buenos Aires, Honolulu and Mumbai, and rumours Jetstar could replace Qantas on some flights to the US mainland and Europe. Speaking to the Herald during a brief visit to promote Australian-Gulf relations, Mr Hogan said the airline he runs, Etihad, would happily fill any voids Qantas creates.

''They [Qantas] don't have the network they had 15 years ago,'' Mr Hogan, a 36-year veteran of the aviation industry, said.

''As Qantas starts restructuring their network, it presents even further opportunities for us to strengthen our foothold in the market.

''As they continue to marginalise their global brand 'Qantas', that represents an opportunity for airlines such as us.

''The Gulf airlines and the Asian carriers out of Australia will have a stronger consumer offering - whether it's leisure or corporate.

''If they [Qantas] do dilute or marginalise their international flying that's a great opportunity for us … and we're happy to fill the gap.''

Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, will announce its international business restructure on August 24, but the airline yesterday declined to discuss any competitive rivalries.

Etihad Airways is based in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the United Arab Emirates, and competes with the neighbouring colossus of Emirates Airline and the ambitious Qatar Airways, along with other global airlines.

Etihad Airways flies to 72 cities worldwide on a fleet of 61 aircraft.
It contrasts with the Qantas group, with its fleet of about 250 aircraft, which barely has a European presence outside of codeshare agreements with other airlines.

And the major shareholders will sit back and let this happen

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Old 15th Aug 2011, 00:24
  #166 (permalink)  

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QF is lying about social media. I've been reviewing @qantasairways and #qantas for the last few weeks. Our PIA PAs are minuscule in terms of volume of traffic on those tags. I only recall one negative comments. The rest have been positive.

Once again, at the door of the aircraft, lots of positive comments, ZERO negative.

What has been interesting in this whole process is seeing how Qantas continue to lie in their media releases- pay rises, costs to the business, what we're asking for, etc. I'd always been proud of my employer when it came to things like Bali bombings and other assistance at times of need but I'm becoming more and more convinced that the core values at Qantas are based on misinformation, distortion, dissembling and spin. To be frank, the corporate structure no longer appears to share my values for the passenger and for the manner in which we do business. It puts me in a very conflicted position.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 00:37
  #167 (permalink)  
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I don't think anyone should be surprised at what the grubby little Qantas PR department has been up to. It's only going to get worse.

The important thing is to remain focused. Qantas are desperately trying to deflect attention away from the job claims and their offshore expansion plans. It's the only thing they can do. They know if the media start pressing the hard questions about Asian outsourcing and labour regulations, they've got problems.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 01:16
  #168 (permalink)  
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Smell the blood

Wow wonder if Mr Hogan gets labelled kamikaze for having such an enthusiastic outlook for the region and opportunities that Qantas pass over.
Here come the big boys lookout
If they sense that Qantas is vulnerable to competition then they sure must think 1 star is a joke
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 02:20
  #169 (permalink)  
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This whole story is a circus.

Okay lets say just for a moment we have two leading newspapers both with story headlines reference what's going on in QF.

Story one headline: "QF Pilots claims are bringing down our Iconic famous Airline, QANTAS".( my bolding as it's more dramatic)

Story Two headline: "Qantas is being unfair and not paying us pilots enough"

You go figure it out which headline story will sell the most papers & have the most sympathy/clout with the gen public!

So unless AJ has a change of heart (or a heart at all) then essentially as has been said before famously 'get yr affairs in order'!

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Old 15th Aug 2011, 03:02
  #170 (permalink)  
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If they drop Buenos Aries, that will free up a 747ER allowing a daily Dallas too.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 03:56
  #171 (permalink)  
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So let me get this right Fed Sec , The vast majority of you members are employed by Qantas or their subsituute Forstaff ? Yes . Those employed members pay fees to your " Association " who in turn employ you and pay your very generous terms of employment . Yes . So why do have a death wish to destroy this arrangement ? Maybe a seat in Parliament is on your horizon . Yes . Are you really concerned about the future if aviation in Australia . NO . Do you value self interest above all else . Yes. You are not Fair Dinkum MATE .
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 04:13
  #172 (permalink)  
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When I analyse my own flying habits, I realise that I'm basically paying inflated Qantas fares for the expertise of its staff. It's certainly not because of the planes, many of which are ageing. If management muck around too much with that expertise they could lose me and thousands of others for good. I'm not interested in Qantas becoming another Jetstar.
This hits the nail on the head.

To keep your business successful, you need to identify what makes the brand and invest in it.

In my opinion management have failed dismally at doing this, instead chosing to re-invent a brand that nobody is interested in.

This situation is out of control and needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 05:16
  #173 (permalink)  
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It has been a busy and productive year
at the Qantas Group.
Our strategy is to create two airlines –
Qantas and Jetstar – that are the best in
their class
The PREMIUM product

The LOW COST product

Is there any wonder ?
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 07:33
  #174 (permalink)  
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Qantas, part of the Jetstar Group

QANTAS has managed to destroy 43% of its brand value in just 2 short years.

In the 7 July issue of BRW it was stated that QANTAS has managed to destroy 43% of its brand value in just 2 short years.

90 years to build a brand, 2 years to destroy 43% of it.

I would love to take credit for the following reply to one of Ben Sandilands blogs. I don't know who wrote it, and I apologize if it has been posted on here before, but I hadn't seen it until today. It provides a very insightful synopsis of how we have found ourselves in this position of fighting for our very existence, and pulls no punches on who is to blame?

Some of you may be aware of the media attention recently coming upon Qantas- especially from it's CEO, Alan Joyce. Joyce came to the Qantas Group to run Jetstar, and had a small stint in Ansett, and a large stint in Ryanair previous to joining Qantas. Joyce has in past few months called Qantas pilots "Recalcitrant","Kamikaze", and "Rogue", as well as accusing them of "Living on cloud cuckoo land". The reason- Qantas pilots are asking to ensure Qantas Pilot jobs remain in Australia, as there is gathering evidence that Qantas wants to move more of its operations offshore. Qantas Engineers are also asking for the same guarantees. So far, Qantas has refused to negotiate at all on these asks from the pilots and engineers. Joyce was the golden haired boy of the previous CEO Geoff Dixon, the man who masterminded the attempted private Equity buyout of Qantas in 2007. Thankfully that did not get through. If it did, Qantas would have defaulted on the debt it was going to be loaded with, and would most certainly not exist anymore. Dixon stood to make $60m out of the deal, and Joyce in excess of $20m.

In the Dixon/Joyce years, decision have been made that have severely damaged the Qantas brand, including forcing passengers onto Jetstar without choice, closing in-house maintenance of engines which has resulted in a 180% increase in engine failures in the past 5 years, and not buying the right aircraft to modernise Qantas and allow route expansion. To add, Qantas has subsided the Jetstar operation from the start including paying for maintenance, payment of landing fees, fuel and terminal charges, and seat subsidies.

As a result, Qantas share prices are below their 1995 issue price of $2.00. Joyce was in Singapore recently for the International Air Transport Association (IATA) conference and blasted the pilots and engineers as being to blame for the tanking share price. He also stated that there would be no more investment in Qantas until it "started to return it's cost of capital". As one commentator put it, this is akin to "not spending any money on your car to make it run until it starts". To put some of this into context and to show how badly Qantas management have stuffed up, here is some quotes from Qantas management and what has subsequently happened:

"Jetstar will not operate more than 15 aircraft" G.Dixon 2004.

It now operates more than 70 aircraft.

"Jetstar will never operate internationally" G Dixon 2004.

It has taken many Qantas routes from its parent company to Hawaii, Japan, Bali and other ports.

"Emirates is not a threat as it is not a growth model" G Dixon 2001.

Emirates now operate more than 60 services per week to Australia and flies to 26 destinations in Europe.

"The B777 is an old technology aircraft" G Dixon 2006.

The B777 could fly 90% of the routes currently flown by the B747 with a 30% reduction in fuel burn and is flown by every major airline in the world.

"There is no money in freight" G Dixon 2004.

Qantas now operates a full freighter B767 aircraft flown by contract pilots as well as full time contracts with Atlas Air Cargo. All the while Qantas pilots get assigned Long Service Leave because of a surplus in pilot numbers due to the outsourcing of flying previously done by Qantas pilots to Jetstar, Atlas cargo, Jetconnect across the Tasman, and Jetstar Asia.

You will find below a succinct, precise, summary of where and why…

Qantas finds itself- losing money and losing market share. This was written as a response to a blog by Ben Sandilands on

Qantas pilots and engineers ask for your support and patience this year while we try to end the rot, keep Australian jobs in Australia and attempt to save a national icon from corporate greed.

Of all the elements a board and a CEO must manage and protect, surely building and protecting the brand of a company must be their number one priority. Clifford came out swinging on the weekend saying the focus of the board and CEO must be, and is, on the share price and return of capital. But it is the brand that drives the share price, not the other way around. Everything else flows from that.

If you followed that logic Jetstar never would have been started and Virgin wouldn't be spending a fortune re-launching and building the brand. If Virgin can do that, why cant Qantas?

Let's look at the facts. This is marketing and business studies 101. Qantas from the inception of the very first brand surveys decades ago consistently and without exception, year in year out, always lead the pack as the NUMBER ONE BRAND in Australia. This was not just in terms of brand recognition but also in relation to the more significant drivers of financial success in the market place; trust and emotional attachment for the brand. The Qantas brand was pure 100%, 24 carat, rolled gold. This was Qantas's number one asset. It still should be bigger than all the aircraft and other tangibles combined. Every airline has plant and equipment, but only Qantas had that number one position, the ultimate in brand power.

After sitting at number one for decades Qantas is no longer even in the top ten. But worse than that here's a report from Readers Digest annual Most Trusted Brands survey way back in 2008. "the iconic flying kangaroo, Qantas, dropped 47 spots in consumer confidence."

You read right. In 2008 Qantas dropped 47 spots. That massive drop in the brand if quantified in dollar terms is so much more than the net worth Jetstar has added to the Qantas group. So what happened? How did the best, most loved, number one brand in
Australia for decade’s crash and burn. So quickly. So badly. There are two main reasons for this. And they have names, the first being Dixon, the other Joyce. The destruction of the brand has zippo to do with the current biffo with the unions.

1/ When Dixon took over as CEO the Qantas brand was still riding high and proud at number one. It was untouchable. He was seen by many as marketing and PR genius. Yet the destruction of the Qantas brand can be traced back through these exact same brand surveys to having> commenced during his tenure. It is no coincidence that this rapid decline coincides EXACTLY with the rise of Jetstar under the Qantas umbrella.

BA when they held seats on the board warned Dixon an in house low cost carrier would cannibalize the parent brand. Dixon thought he knew better.

We all know the story. As soon as Jetstar was launched Qantas ****ed off many local communities with the haste it pulled out of so many key domestic and international markets and forced people who were used to, and wanted full service, onto Jetstar with an appalling lack of service.

Everyone knows Jetstar is Qantas. Each and every time people feel ripped off or mishandled by Jetstar, which is often, the knife is dug deeper and twisted further into what is left of the Qantas brand.

Just ask any of the tens of thousands of passengers forced to fly Jetstar (because Qantas has pulled out) to destinations like the Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Tasmania, Hamilton Island, Bali or Japan.

They don't blame Jetstar, they blame Qantas.

2/ From the day Jetstar was conceived fleet renewal and investment in the mainline product ceased almost completely. While Jetstar got an entirely new fleet of fuel efficient A320/A330 aircraft "full fare" passengers on "full service" Qantas were stuck with clapped out, gas guzzling, dirty and unreliable aircraft. The new Dallas debacle is a perfect example.

As you point out Ben, when Qantas could have, should have been renewing its mainline fleet, such as buying B777's as did all of its main competitors, there was no money or motivation as all the focus and cash were thrown at Jetstar.
Clifford and Joyce had already earmarked the first B787s for Jetstar, meaning Qantas mainline will not be seeing any new aircraft for many years. Just who has been subsidizing who? This only serves to compound the destruction of the brand. Joyce is now the biggest most vocal detractor of Qantas brand, constantly screaming hysterically that long haul is in serious trouble.

What would the books look like if Qantas had, as it should have as the premium brand, a fleet of all new and super efficient aircraft while the budget arm Jetstar was stuck with the old aircraft from the current mainline fleet.

A/ Jetstar would no longer be making money
B/ Qantas mainline would be making money
C/ Qantas would have a product people expect of a full service carrier and it would be growing its market share.
No one at Qantas management either remembers, or understands, these important lessons from history.
The only player who appears to do so is John Borghetti. You can see he 'gets it' by his determination to invest substantially in a full service product, to grow markets such as this morning's tie up with Singapore Airlines, the business and the Virgin brand. He knows where Qantas is vulnerable and it is insightful too that he is branding Virgin Australia as the Australian airline and he is vocal about returning jobs to Australia service his aircraft here.
Old 15th Aug 2011, 07:38
  #175 (permalink)  
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I agree with everything you've said in your last post EWP.(post#180)
On an industrial level I think we are on the same page.
It looks like the mods have deleted your post re 'Bananna eating monkeys flying VH registered aircraft', and also my response to it outlining how the more time I spend away from Australia, the more I notice how prevalent certain attitudes are there. Probably a good thing in order to keep the thread on track. Have a good night.
Edited to add post number as we posted over each other there.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 08:42
  #176 (permalink)  
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No wonder at all in my mind EWP.
If I was a member of the longhaul union I would be lobbying to get some sort of response going to the misinformation being presented in the mainstream media and I would be terribly frustrated.
Pilots all around the world see where this is headed and support you guys, but you need to make an impression on the public and the pollies this week or it's too late. Just my opinion. I still think it's not too late to make a media splash by dropping every claim except the job security one and taking the small financial hit in order to secure your futures. The media would be forced to look at a very simple argument then and the waters would be much clearer.
Cheers, Framer
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 11:16
  #177 (permalink)  
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Has anyone seen AJ lately ?
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 11:48
  #178 (permalink)  
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Macquarie has obviously been briefed by AJ

Macquarie Link
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 12:14
  #179 (permalink)  
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At the end of the day both sides 1 all.

PILOTS are being ordered to stop trying to make up time on Qantas flights running significantly late - so the airline can save on fuel costs. In a snub for passengers, the airline has a strict policy of refusing to allow pilots to catch up if they can't land in the 15-minute window that qualifies as being on time.
"If the aircraft is running late and the pilot can't make it there within 15 minutes of the scheduled arrival time then he or she is not permitted to fly faster and burn more fuel," one pilot said.
Forgive me if this has been posted somewhere but to be fair, it is good to see the Herald Sun try to balance their reporting with this Qantas pilots told not to minimise delays | Herald Sun after publishing this one on the same day, 15/08/11. Qantas swamped with passenger complaints over pilots' gripes | Herald Sun

May be the Editor realised a wild cut and paste of a Qantas press release may have been a mistake or this is a good example that Captain Richard Woodward from AIPA getting a good counter story published. At the end of the day both sides 1 all.
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Old 15th Aug 2011, 12:29
  #180 (permalink)  
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Macquarie has obviously been briefed by AJ
I read the report, and I found the statement about a possible $150 million adjsutment on 2012 earnings if industrial action commences to be a very interesting remark.

It does make one wonder how some "analysts" research their investments.
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