AUGUST 24th - QANTAS
The problem is not that the unions don't want to be flexible, remember that after Sept 11 QF pilots agreed to a wage freeze to help the company. Its the executives who are pushing the ideology that unions are there to rubber stamp whatever the company decree.
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Crap
Charlie Horse
I dont you think will find a power push to pushback a fully laden 744 or A380 or even a 767 for that matter.
And its 2 engineers on a pushback not 3, and thats for safety reasons.
How much does a power push cost anyway, we already have tugs and towbars.
Oh by the way, i work overseas in Asia, and not one power push to be seen, and guess what 2 technicians for every pushback with a tug and towbar.
And yes there is a well known incident in Sydney when the bag chucker got the wrong remote for his Ppush and couldnt figure out why he couldnt push his plane ???
Meanwhile the plane on the next bay which wasnt ready for pushback had a power push on it with smoking tyres, trying to push back a plane with the brakes on! Doh !
If it aint broke !
I dont you think will find a power push to pushback a fully laden 744 or A380 or even a 767 for that matter.
And its 2 engineers on a pushback not 3, and thats for safety reasons.
How much does a power push cost anyway, we already have tugs and towbars.
Oh by the way, i work overseas in Asia, and not one power push to be seen, and guess what 2 technicians for every pushback with a tug and towbar.
And yes there is a well known incident in Sydney when the bag chucker got the wrong remote for his Ppush and couldnt figure out why he couldnt push his plane ???
Meanwhile the plane on the next bay which wasnt ready for pushback had a power push on it with smoking tyres, trying to push back a plane with the brakes on! Doh !
If it aint broke !
Charlie Horse,
you have not listed one item where the pilots are inefficient. Same old line bandied around but no substance. Identify the inefficiency and then we can form a solution.
Rosters can be built to fly 900 hours a year. Where is that inefficient?
The pilots have agreed to negotiate extensions to this limit. Inefficient flight planning system buried somewhere in the 1970s, inefficient use of pilots with the use of blank line holders. All controlled by the company, not the pilots.
I have worked with other operators overseas and none of the companies (qf)problems will be addressed by offshoring or reducing pilots wage costs as such. Walk around hq and ask yourself what the hell do all the suits do?
I mean seriously this is where the problem is for qf. The support(?) staff and associated costs aligned with these groups are where there needs to be a radical overhaul. Its got nothing to do with the 900 hours a year pilots may fly and their (the pilots) costs.
you have not listed one item where the pilots are inefficient. Same old line bandied around but no substance. Identify the inefficiency and then we can form a solution.
Rosters can be built to fly 900 hours a year. Where is that inefficient?
The pilots have agreed to negotiate extensions to this limit. Inefficient flight planning system buried somewhere in the 1970s, inefficient use of pilots with the use of blank line holders. All controlled by the company, not the pilots.
I have worked with other operators overseas and none of the companies (qf)problems will be addressed by offshoring or reducing pilots wage costs as such. Walk around hq and ask yourself what the hell do all the suits do?
I mean seriously this is where the problem is for qf. The support(?) staff and associated costs aligned with these groups are where there needs to be a radical overhaul. Its got nothing to do with the 900 hours a year pilots may fly and their (the pilots) costs.
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Instead of all you Qantas pilots whining about Jetstar and waisting your union fees on expensive advertising campaigns and bill boards, you need to get smart and work out how to do your part to make Qantas more efficient.
The whole company is ridiculously inefficient. You should team up with the other unions and work this stuff out.
But you need to look behind the scenes s I was on holiday in Sydney recently and overheard some Qantas managers talking in a cafe. They were saying the pay and conditions are not so much the problem but the inefficiencies in the company like how 3 engineers/groundies are required to push back an aircraft when other airlines are using 1 with a power push
From the outside looking in, Qantas is over staffed and inefficient,
And also tell your unions to stop crapping on about how great Qantas pilots are, your not the only ones who no how to fly!
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You should team up with the other unions and work this stuff out.
There were many more examples. Anyway get smart and help improve Qantas performance, it may mean some job losses? But get efficient then your airline will grow and need more staff eventually.
From the outside looking in, Qantas is over staffed and inefficient, some of this is managements problem,
but it is also the staffs problem.
But instead we're considered kamikaze rogues making outrageous claims from Cloud Cuckoo Land.
The major problem is exceptionalism is ignored, mediocrity is rewarded, and incompetence is nurtured.
Charlie Horse, you are either deluded or naive in the extreme. The idea that by bowing to the company's desires and making Qantas even more profitable that it will improve our situation and protect our jobs is garbage.
Look at what happened at Jetstar. Their pilots were flying on an incredibly efficient EBA, supposedly making the company mountains of money.
Did that protect the employees and secure their future?? NO.
Jetstar management decided to put all future pilots on the legal bare minimum salary for an airline pilot. But that was not bad enough, you were only employed part-time and you had to take your endorsement cost out of your pay.
So the reward for being a highly efficient pilot making a fantastic return on capital for the "fastest growing airline in the world" is......
Get paid less than the absolute minimum pay as set out in law. Wow, what a great incentive to improve efficiency.
Fortunately the Jetstar pilots united together and said enough is enough, pushed back against the company and won.
Qantas does not reward efficiency, it will take the money and divide it amongst the management bonuses.
Look at what happened at Jetstar. Their pilots were flying on an incredibly efficient EBA, supposedly making the company mountains of money.
Did that protect the employees and secure their future?? NO.
Jetstar management decided to put all future pilots on the legal bare minimum salary for an airline pilot. But that was not bad enough, you were only employed part-time and you had to take your endorsement cost out of your pay.
So the reward for being a highly efficient pilot making a fantastic return on capital for the "fastest growing airline in the world" is......
Get paid less than the absolute minimum pay as set out in law. Wow, what a great incentive to improve efficiency.
Fortunately the Jetstar pilots united together and said enough is enough, pushed back against the company and won.
Qantas does not reward efficiency, it will take the money and divide it amongst the management bonuses.
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My oleo said "it's an Industry fact that QF Pilots are some of the best in the world"..... Sure QF have some good operators, but most of the industry overseas regard QF pilots as some of the most "up yourselves" pilots in the world.
Your statements go to supporting this perception.
Your statements go to supporting this perception.
Nunc est bibendum
For the last 40 years, for every EBA, QF management have 'signed off' on the deal without the QF pilots once threatening or resorting to any sort of industrial action. So now, given the talk that the pilots (and others) are so inefficient, should those past managers be handing back their bonuses? Dixon was at the helm for EBA 4, 5 and 6 and pocketed huge savings. If we're 'inefficient' then Dixon is complicit in the mess and therefore incompetent for agreeing to such an inefficient workplace.
So which is it? Are the unions inefficient and therefore the management incompetent? Or are the management incompetent for not agreeing to the changes that have been suggested by the line workers over the years?
So which is it? Are the unions inefficient and therefore the management incompetent? Or are the management incompetent for not agreeing to the changes that have been suggested by the line workers over the years?
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I was on holiday in Sydney recently and overheard some Qantas managers talking in a cafe.
Did they have a sign on their back saying "Qantas Manager"?
You just happened to overhear a long conversation, spoken out loud, in a cafe, by people that you know to be Qantas Managers, that aligned with your views about practices that have never existed in the 20 years that I have been involved with RPT aviation. Get real!
So which is it? Are the unions inefficient and therefore the management incompetent? Or are the management incompetent for not agreeing to the changes that have been suggested by the line workers over the years?
But, the truth/reality normally lies somewhere in between regardless of whether you're hearing two different stories about a fender-bender on High Street or two different stories about the demise of a good airline.
It is commonly thought in other countries that Australian Unions are fairly militant when compared with other countries. This has been beneficial for many Australian employees over the last few decades, it has been a constant battle for employers. Employees have built up great conditions with large and complex contracts that get (on average) better each year. While the labour pool was essentially Australian and the country was doing well, no problem for the Employee. Now that the labour pool is legally not restricted to Australia, the Employers (read fat-cats) see an opportunity to win a few battles and maybe even the war after decades of feeling agrieved. Some of them most likely feel personally agrieved.
Deregulation of the industry seems like an oportunity to them in this particular regard (in others it presents problems).
The long haul union is continuing to fight for new and uncontested ground out of habit. They need to take heart in the fact that they have established excellet strong-holds over the years and retreat to them. Once they have re-grouped, plan to defend their position (ie job security).
The fight for pay increases and travel benefits to match middle management etc is the fight for new ground. Leave it. You'l need all your firepower amassed in one place to avoid losing the war (job security).
If you don't drop every single claim except this one, the war may be over.
In my opinion of course.
Framer
I second Higs. QANTAS are often referred to as the 'sky gods' by other Aussie pilots who very competently operate heavy metal in and out of Australia. By all means take a stand (better late than never after 'that year'), but be careful with the self-promotion; too much can have the opposite effect.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 11th Aug 2011 at 07:59.
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the biggest contributer to flight safety at QF is the exposure the crews get to sitting in their seat/position/type for decades before becoming captain as a result of slow growth.
If QF were cranking out skippers in 2-3 years like some carriers in the region they would quickly find they are not gods and the training system is not as good as they think it is.
Slow progression is a life saver in legacy carriers.
If QF were cranking out skippers in 2-3 years like some carriers in the region they would quickly find they are not gods and the training system is not as good as they think it is.
Slow progression is a life saver in legacy carriers.
AnQrKa - Cant agree more with you. I made a prediction 10 years ago about safety in some fast growth Asian airlines and I still fear some very nasty events with such a small talent pool. But then of course these new planes fly themselves and the computers are there to catch the mistakes, right AJ?
How quickly people forget accidents like the SQ 744 fatalities at TPE
RIP
How quickly people forget accidents like the SQ 744 fatalities at TPE
RIP
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Posted before, but worth another read.
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!
Last edited by fl610; 11th Aug 2011 at 19:44.
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Originally Posted by Higs
My oleo said "it's an Industry fact that QF Pilots are some of the best in the world"..... Sure QF have some good operators, but most of the industry overseas regard QF pilots as some of the most "up yourselves" pilots in the world. Your statements go to supporting this perception.
Also, in his defence, he said "some of". That doesn't exclude everyone else.
Bruce not happy with moving. And perhaps a pay cut to go with it.
Jetstar denies reports it plans to move HQ from Melbourne to Asia | News.com.au
Jetstar denies reports it plans to move HQ from Melbourne to Asia | News.com.au
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How ironic
The maggot who forced moved JQ pilots away from their families may be forced on the next boat to china!!!
Bravo I say......and sooner the better
Oz aviation would be a better place without human garbage like this around...now F OFF BRUCE
The maggot who forced moved JQ pilots away from their families may be forced on the next boat to china!!!
Bravo I say......and sooner the better
Oz aviation would be a better place without human garbage like this around...now F OFF BRUCE
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'give me some brown nose comments on the QF Facebook page and I will give you the chance of a shot in the QF A380 simulator'
What next?
Well, getting entrants to post on the QF Facebook page how they absolutely love traveling with QANTAS with the most complimentary testimonials is one way of improving your social media standing. Alan must have received word from his 'social media analysts' that it was all going pear shaped.
Wait for it, Alans announcement on the 24th will include the comment that customers love the product and that they have been receiving superb feedback via social media!!
No Alan, this is not genuine feedback it is basically a contrived scheme to deliberately obtain some positive social media commentary as you are obviously unable to do it based on the current product offering alone!!
Wouldn't it be good if people tried not to win the sim and started posting negative comments!
As much as a shot on the 380 sim is on my 'bucket list' I will not lower myself to your level to do it!!
More to Follow
The kelpie
Ps. Does anyone think that jetstar's move to base 'loose cannon' and some other jetstar top execs in hong kong has anything to do with qantasia? Today jetstar Asia's base, tomorrow qantasia head office? Seems suspicious to me that loose Bruce would move to hong kong. Maybe he will be announced on the 24th of August as qantas's 'man in asia' an possible indicator that he is being groomed to be Alan Joyce's successor or at the very least equal!
Well this is a Rumour network!!
What next?
Well, getting entrants to post on the QF Facebook page how they absolutely love traveling with QANTAS with the most complimentary testimonials is one way of improving your social media standing. Alan must have received word from his 'social media analysts' that it was all going pear shaped.
Wait for it, Alans announcement on the 24th will include the comment that customers love the product and that they have been receiving superb feedback via social media!!
No Alan, this is not genuine feedback it is basically a contrived scheme to deliberately obtain some positive social media commentary as you are obviously unable to do it based on the current product offering alone!!
Wouldn't it be good if people tried not to win the sim and started posting negative comments!
As much as a shot on the 380 sim is on my 'bucket list' I will not lower myself to your level to do it!!
More to Follow
The kelpie
Ps. Does anyone think that jetstar's move to base 'loose cannon' and some other jetstar top execs in hong kong has anything to do with qantasia? Today jetstar Asia's base, tomorrow qantasia head office? Seems suspicious to me that loose Bruce would move to hong kong. Maybe he will be announced on the 24th of August as qantas's 'man in asia' an possible indicator that he is being groomed to be Alan Joyce's successor or at the very least equal!
Well this is a Rumour network!!