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AUGUST 24th - QANTAS

Old 12th Aug 2011, 20:29
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Hey Kelpie, loose bruce can never be alan's equal......he is too tall.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 20:58
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Can we send aj, bb, the entire board and lc off to Asia to play world domination so we can lock the door as they all leave; and get back to building a great Australian airline again?

Last edited by ejectx3; 12th Aug 2011 at 21:50.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 23:07
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You can Ejectx3.

Simply come up with a business plan that includes demerging Jetstar & Qantas and sell it to QAN's long suffering shareholders.

If what you propose is more profitable and less risky than what's going down right now, expect your backers would make quite a tidy profit

Hmmm!
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 00:06
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QANTAS will never sell Jetstar.

In order to do so they would have to issue a prospectus. To complete a prospectus they would have to include financial forecasts and open your business to scrutiny by potential investors.

When a significant portion of your costs are paid for by the big brother, completing the prospectus is impossible unless you lie.

If you lie in a prospectus you go to jail.

QANTAS will never sell Jetstar.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 01:17
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Well thatís what some people said about TABCORP & Fosters right up to when Gaming was separated from Racing and Beer from Wine.

At the end of the day, itís all about what business model produces the best risk/return ratio for shareholders who are ambivalent about whether their investment is in the Qantas Group or in an equivalent number of Qantas & Jetstar shares.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 02:24
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Jet* is not an airline as such: it's a staffing company like JetConnect. It's role is to provide staff, at lower rates, to operate Qantas owned assets. I doubt there would be any assets to sell if it was sold off. The different colour scheme for those particular Qantas assets are a smoke-screen to hide the true nature of the company.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 06:12
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Simply come up with a business plan that includes demerging Jetstar & Qantas and sell it to QAN's long suffering shareholders.
Nah... go the other way... merge Jetstar with QANTAS and add another class to the aircraft - P/J/Y/"Jetstar Class".

It'll solve all the hassles... no wage differentials... shouldn't be any redundencies... better utilisation of pilots and other staff... enough aircraft to reopen maintenance shops... no bitter rivalry twixt Jetstar and QANTAS... lose one of the GMs or both... everyone happy!!!

It was a nice dream!!!!
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 06:34
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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it is a pity that QF and JQ captains cannot refuse to carry AJ, BB and LC.... under the guise of "serious threat to the safety of the flight".
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 08:50
  #149 (permalink)  
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I don't think JQ captains will ever have to worry about Bruce flying with them if QF also fly the route. He'll be firmly ensconced in 1A on QF.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 09:13
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Originally Posted by What The
QANTAS will never sell Jetstar.
What rot!

Plan A of the APA bid, had it succeeded, was to sell anything of perceived value. JQ was top of the list.

Which begs the question; why is QF management continuing to hide the operating costs of JQ

Because selling JQ is still the plan when APA2 happens.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 12:34
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I don't think JQ captains will ever have to worry about Bruce flying with them if QF also fly the route. He'll be firmly ensconced in 1A on QF.
It was 1JK or what ever the left side seats were on the 2 class config the other week :P
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 21:11
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ďI am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)Ē

Great story but it was written way before Gordonís time and gets re hashed every decade or so.

This article was written by an employee of CO under the stewardship of Lorenzo.

Pilots at CO then were paid the lowest salary of any legacy carrier in the US. The company was constantly hounded by the FAA for maintenance fraud. They had the oldest fleet in the country and pilots spent a lot of time on strike or furlough.

The army of one was posted on a thread about QF. I assume in order to make a comparison.

Is it a fair comparison?
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 21:46
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Well thatís what some people said about TABCORP & Fosters right up to when Gaming was separated from Racing and Beer from Wine.

At the end of the day, itís all about what business model produces the best risk/return ratio for shareholders who are ambivalent about whether their investment is in the Qantas Group or in an equivalent number of Qantas & Jetstar shares.

The point you are missing is that there is\was no reason for Tabcorp or Fosters to muddy the financials between the segments and as a result they could be easily valued and split.

Jetstar on the other hand, does exactly the same job as the parent and there is extreme muddying of the cost burden.

The reason is the three pronged strategy:

(1) Fill the 3rd carrier gap in the market,
(2) Attack Virgin from the bottom,
(3) Break the unions in Qantas.

You can make the financials fit the strategy with a little creative cost allocation. Very interesting to hear about the Singapore situation with regards the allocation of costs and the new paperwork required to be filled out. Problem is, it is just a piece of paper. It doesn't reflect the final allocation of the costs. I am still dubious.


What rot!

Plan A of the APA bid, had it succeeded, was to sell anything of perceived value. JQ was top of the list.

Which begs the question; why is QF management continuing to hide the operating costs of JQ

Because selling JQ is still the plan when APA2 happens.
I think you will find that Frequent Flyer was the top of the list, the Superannuation Scheme was up there and the Airports and Fleet assets were in the mix. I believe JQ was nowhere near the top.

The point you are missing is because of the cross subsidization Jetstar has greatly diminished value without Qantas. In addition, the prospectus issue and having to show where the money comes from causes a bit of a problem.

Qantas will never sell Jetstar.

Last edited by What The; 13th Aug 2011 at 23:00.
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Old 13th Aug 2011, 23:29
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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QUOTE
Is it a fair comparison?

QUOTE
Pilots at CO then were paid the lowest salary of any legacy carrier in the US. The company was constantly hounded by the FAA for maintenance fraud.


G'Day ZB is this not where we are headed?

Rule by bean counter is the bane of everyone's existence - not just aviation.

A Surgeon friend of mine (as well as his colleagues) has been frequently challenged by hospital management over a particular procedure he may have used during emergency surgery - bean counter tells him if he had used a different procedure then he would have saved the company (hospital) X amount of $$$'s. Mate says to bean counter that when he has gained the equivalent qualifications then perhaps he could then make that call. Mate gets written up on his file for having a bad attitude. I don't know about you but if I am in the unfortunate position of needing emergency surgery then I would hope that the surgeon performing the procedure bases his decisions on primarily saving my life and not thinking about how much extra profit he can generate for the hospital.

"GETTING IT RIGHT" - An extract from an article written by the late Gordon Howe. Former RAAF pilot and Superintendent Flight Operation - DCA - Papua New Guinea.

The price of "getting it right" is above any earthly value that can be placed on it. It is what every pilot strives for, because we know what the price of failure will be.

The pilot psyche is essentially one of solidity of character. The only genius required is that of taking pains to "get it right" and when, the pressure rises, to asses all the inputs of a rapidly developing situation, make a decision which had better be right, and cope as the situation unfolds at 500 knots. The weather goes bad and one engine packs up. You must descend because you can't pressurise the cabin on one engine. Power must be increased on the remaining engine which gulps fuel, because of the lower altitude. The destination advises that VHF facilities are out of action due to a power failure so an ADF approach is all that's left. The F/O states that the hydraulic fluid level is going down and ATC advises worsening weather.

So the pressure in the cockpit builds up as fast as the hydraulic fluid drains away. The runway is wet - it will have to be a flapless landing after free falling the undercarriage. Aquaplanning is a strong possibility and the emergency braking system is about to get some exercise. Pray that holding will not be required because checking time to ETA against consumption shows that fuel will be a scarce commodity overhead the runway and the first landing attempt must be right. Now is the time to call in a bus driver, A BEAN COUNTER or someone with 10 hours in a Chimpmunk and all will be well. - No prizes for guessing who this last sentence was aimed at! (My bolding)

I for one certainly won't deny that there are many inefficiencies at the rat, but the radical bean counter surgery being performed can only end in disaster. The unfortunate thing is that the only thing that will get these so called managers attention are smoking holes in the ground.

Cheers,

fl610.

Last edited by fl610; 15th Aug 2011 at 11:36.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 00:05
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Why we want Qantas pilots in the cockpit
August 14, 2011
OPINION

The national carrier needs to be careful in its pay battle with staff.
AS QANTAS and its pilots prepare to fly into some unprecedented industrial turbulence, the airline's high-profile ambassador, John Travolta (pictured below), has landed with a thud. Anyone who has flown with the national carrier in the past few months has had to endure Travolta's rather hokey introduction to the air safety video.


I don't know whose idea it was to feature Travolta, but I don't think they should win any in-house innovation awards. Saturday Night Fever it isn't, although Travolta does deliver one killer line: ''There's no one I'd rather have at the controls than a Qantas pilot.''


The actor had articulated the argument at the heart of the looming industrial battle: if you pay to fly on a Qantas plane, shouldn't the people in the cockpit be Qantas pilots? Not surprisingly, the video has been withdrawn.


One of the key demands by the airline's 1650 long-distance pilots is that any flight with the letters QF in front of it has to be flown by a Qantas person. Airline management is resisting. Like many Australians, I try to support Qantas, usually paying above the odds because a) it's my airline and b) over the years they haven't failed to get me or anyone else to a destination in one piece.


But, gee, it's getting harder. Not only is the disparity between Qantas fares and those of its competitors getting bigger, the airline's customer service is lamentable. Just this week I cancelled a flight because of illness and was told that while I could not have my money back, I would receive a travel credit that I could use in the next 12 months - provided I paid $55.


Later this month, Qantas chief Alan Joyce, who's about as popular as a mid-air hijacker with some of his flyers, will unveil his grand vision for the future of the airline's international operation. Pilots fear that Joyce will establish a Qantas Asia operation based in, say, Hong Kong or Singapore, and that it will lead to compromised safety. Pilots fear the airline will start employing people who would not normally get near a Qantas cockpit. The airline says it has to try new lower-cost approaches or go bust.


There is no doubt that the federal government's open-skies policy has contributed to Qantas's woes. In the days of highly restricted competition it was much easier for the Flying Kangaroo to make a buck on international routes. Now it's bleeding money. So clearly, Qantas management has to identify savings. Hiring pilots, engineers and cabin crews overseas where labour costs are lower would be a good start.


Or would it? When I analyse my own flying habits, I realise that I'm basically paying inflated Qantas fares for the expertise of its staff. It's certainly not because of the planes, many of which are ageing. If management muck around too much with that expertise they could lose me and thousands of others for good. I'm not interested in Qantas becoming another Jetstar.


As the public relations war hots up in coming weeks, the airline will no doubt try to paint the pilots as greedy and overpaid. They will point out that some earn $350,000-plus. But they will need to be careful. For instance, had I been a passenger on QF32 when it was saved over Indonesia by the extraordinary skills of Qantas pilots, I'd say they earn every cent. So demonising these people won't work.


Pilots have authorised a range of industrial action, including two-day stoppages. At the moment, they have restricted their industrial campaign to a short cockpit announcement that says: ''We are proud of our profession and our airline, and trust you will support us in keeping Qantas pilots in Qantas aircraft and ensuring our great iconic airline remains uniquely Australian.'' It's their first industrial action in 45 years. Very deftly, pilots have turned their new agreement into an argument about safety. They only want a relatively paltry 2.5 per cent pay increase.


The announcements are a sad comment on the deterioration in the relationship between Qantas and its most valuable asset - its people.


But it was another, unscripted announcement that really brought it home to me. In May this year, our Qantas pilot apologised for the delay in opening the doors. ''I'm sorry for the delay, but in their wisdom, Qantas has rostered on only one person today to look after air bridges, so we all have to wait.''


Over years of flying with the ''spirit of Australia'' I have grown used to pilots proudly embracing their airline. But this indicated to me that at Qantas, what used to be Us has clearly become Them.


Bruce Guthrie is a former editor of The Age, The Sunday Age and Herald Sun. Twitter: @brucerguthrie
SMH
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 00:55
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by What The
Qantas will never sell Jetstar.....The prospectus issue and having to show where the money comes from causes a bit of a problem.
Perhaps, but only if Jetstar is spun off as a public offering. Believe an off market sale to another airline is a different matter.
Ejectx3 asked : Can we....get back to building a great Australian airline again?
And I say again, come up with a business plan that includes demerging Jetstar & Qantas and sell it to QAN's long suffering shareholders.

That said, personally I like Animal's idea of - (Adding another class to the aircraft).

Fits well with demerging Jetstar & Qantas.

Last edited by WorthWhat; 14th Aug 2011 at 01:48. Reason: Animal Spirits
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 04:52
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POST 24TH AUGUST TOWNSVILLE REFUELER

JET*
All 787 maintenance carried out by J*
All Honolulu services.
SFO re-instated using J*
LAX-JFK using J*

QFASIA
Currently being instigated by Dixon and Greig
Remaining 744,s maintained and crewed out of Singapore
QF feeder flights to Singapore for J*ASIA

QF
Maintains and crews domestic and limited international A330 and A380 fleet.
Maintains and crews limited 767 and 744 fleet until retirement
QF 787 Crewed by QF maintained by J* asia or QF asia
SIO maintenance outsourced
Domestic Cat A licences and Maint on demand

just some of the townsville refuellers rumors circulating
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 08:15
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I'm an independent observer with a keen interest in aviation and i signed up solely to tell you this. I support you guys but I'm telling you now that if you think you're winning this in terms of PR, you're wrong. Judging by the water-cooler like conversations I've started with colleges, friends, mates at the Gym and family, Qantas isn't exactly winning either, but they're definitely starting to.

Qantas swamped with passenger complaints over pilots' gripes

Qantas yesterday confirmed it had been inundated with complaints from passengers about the issue including gripes made on board to cabin crew, through letters, phone calls, emails and social-networking sites such as Twitter.
Pilots are bargaining for a deal including 2.5 per cent wage increases for the next three years, two free international tickets each year upgradeable to business and first class, and use of first class lounges while on duty.
Qantas swamped with passenger complaints over pilots' gripes | Herald Sun

That is probably about the fifth peice from News Limited in as many weeks that basically cut+pastes strait off of Qantas' email to the journalist without any response from AIPA. In the headline and the first paragraph alone it nails you. As for the comments, wouldn't surprise me if the supporting ones were all from pilots.

You need to accept and counter this crap. Not throw back lame excuses like 'the average person can see through the Qantas spin!'. Well actually, no, the average bogan reader of the HS or Daily Tele can't. They treat every word in that paper as truth.

That opinion piece above in the SMH & Age is good, but chances are it's deep in the opinion section and not near the front where it needs to be.

Keep in mind that Qantas has and always will have closer ties with the Media than you guys because they can tempt them with perks. But you need to fight otherwise the public will soon despise you, how much you earn compared to everyone else who does the exact same job, how much you complain, how you want business class service for free each time you fly, etc. See what I mean? It may not be the truth but it is what people are starting to think (seriously many people are, stop denying this and accept/fight it), and once people do think that, honestly, no-one gives a **** whether or not they sack you all in favour of 200 hour cadets from KL. They'll get them there safe, do it cheaply and wont whinge.

Qantas does and will continue to fight you with exaggerations and lies. SO HIT THEM BACK! Not with lies, but highlight Joyce's failures, get aggressive, highlight what you guys do (QF32?!), highlight how much debt you go through just to learn how to fly, highlight how you have been so loyal to one airline, highlight how if **** hits the fan you've got one chance to get it right, highlight how many lives you have in your hand, etc. Might sound obvious but it just reinforces that point in peoples heads.

AIPA management, seriously, take the front foot, give it your all. Fight this as hard as you can otherwise you're screwed. You've got one shot. Get in touch via twitter, e-mails, etc. to some TV journalists from the COMMERCIAL channels (not the bloody ABC, you want a show that people watch), like 7 & 9 news, the 7pm project, Sunrise, Today, etc. Give them a good story. Give them an exclusive. Get it shown and get the public back on your side.
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 10:07
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Medom, I completely agree with you. This is what I have just sent to the reporter from the HeraldSun regarding his ridiculous commentary re pilots wanting massages and spas etc....prob won't get published tho... and if ok with you I have cut & pasted your concerns to AIPA. I wanna know what they are doing to combat this dire reporting as well...

"Joe Hildebrand. It is quite clear where your allegiance is. Your nose is squarely in the Qantas Chairman's Lounges' trough, with your appalling lack of context & knowledge of the subject you write. You are billed as an "Investigative Journalist". Well, why don't you do some of that? Get the facts Joe. Your sensationalist approach to journalism is only providing comic relief to the public at large despite the "few" uninformed comments above. What we are seeing is the slow motion destruction of one of Australia's most iconic brands. The pilot's dispute has absolutely nothing to do with what you and the Qantas PR machine are purporting. They have even employed John Singleton to further escalate their scare mongering campaign & try and pull the wool over the eyes of the Australian public to hide the real agenda. If you are interested in reporting the facts, the pilot's fiscal claim is 2.5% p.a, and a non negotiable claim that if you purchase a Qantas ticket to fly on a Qantas aircraft, it will be flown by a Qantas pilot. Make no mistake, should the pilots lose this battle with this greedy bonus chasing Qantas Board & Exec's, it will be the end of Qantas & a sad day for Australia."
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Old 14th Aug 2011, 11:00
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Thanks for joining us Medom. I do deal with the press crowd from time to time and agree entirely with your suggestion about getting out there to counter the rubbish Qantas puts it.

Unfortunately AIPA or ALAEA cannot offer the journos Chairmans Lounges or the like and News Ltd do not want to run any story that supports unions. They do not call us before printing and they do not do stories when we contact them (except when it is Virgin, got front page when their wheel fell off). If you had any doubt about who News Ltd support, just look at their latest ad about the carbon tax. It is a full frontal swipe at Gillard and completely biased.

I know the pax are supportive and that's why the pilots are taking the direct path to the people who custom Qf. That article is just another Qantas lie and a lot of people will see through it. I won't buy their papers anymore.
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