Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific


Old 10th Aug 2011, 23:45
  #121 (permalink)  
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The problem is not that the unions don't want to be flexible, remember that after Sept 11 QF pilots agreed to a wage freeze to help the company. Its the executives who are pushing the ideology that unions are there to rubber stamp whatever the company decree.
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Old 10th Aug 2011, 23:45
  #122 (permalink)  
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Charlie Horse
I dont you think will find a power push to pushback a fully laden 744 or A380 or even a 767 for that matter.
And its 2 engineers on a pushback not 3, and thats for safety reasons.
How much does a power push cost anyway, we already have tugs and towbars.
Oh by the way, i work overseas in Asia, and not one power push to be seen, and guess what 2 technicians for every pushback with a tug and towbar.
And yes there is a well known incident in Sydney when the bag chucker got the wrong remote for his Ppush and couldnt figure out why he couldnt push his plane ???
Meanwhile the plane on the next bay which wasnt ready for pushback had a power push on it with smoking tyres, trying to push back a plane with the brakes on! Doh !
If it aint broke !
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 00:58
  #123 (permalink)  
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Charlie Horse,
you have not listed one item where the pilots are inefficient. Same old line bandied around but no substance. Identify the inefficiency and then we can form a solution.
Rosters can be built to fly 900 hours a year. Where is that inefficient?
The pilots have agreed to negotiate extensions to this limit. Inefficient flight planning system buried somewhere in the 1970s, inefficient use of pilots with the use of blank line holders. All controlled by the company, not the pilots.
I have worked with other operators overseas and none of the companies (qf)problems will be addressed by offshoring or reducing pilots wage costs as such. Walk around hq and ask yourself what the hell do all the suits do?
I mean seriously this is where the problem is for qf. The support(?) staff and associated costs aligned with these groups are where there needs to be a radical overhaul. Its got nothing to do with the 900 hours a year pilots may fly and their (the pilots) costs.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 01:32
  #124 (permalink)  
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Instead of all you Qantas pilots whining about Jetstar and waisting your union fees on expensive advertising campaigns and bill boards, you need to get smart and work out how to do your part to make Qantas more efficient.
Every day a QF pilot signs on he/she is looking at ways to operate safely and cost effectively, you horses ass. A qualified, smart and effective pilot does save the company money and contributes to making the company profitable each and every day. If only the brain dead management could ascertain this.
The whole company is ridiculously inefficient. You should team up with the other unions and work this stuff out.
Not every part of the organisation is inefficient. It is the accountable managers that are pulling the place downwards.
But you need to look behind the scenes s I was on holiday in Sydney recently and overheard some Qantas managers talking in a cafe. They were saying the pay and conditions are not so much the problem but the inefficiencies in the company like how 3 engineers/groundies are required to push back an aircraft when other airlines are using 1 with a power push
Another inaccurate statement. PPU's are not used to push QF aircraft. They push JQ aircraft (A320) but not QF. QF use (predominately) 1 Engineer and 1 rampie to do the pushback. Sometimes 1 or 2 wingwalkers are utilised for safety reasons depending on the bay allocation/infrastructure/aircraft type/size/proximity to blast walls, terminals and other aircraft/lighting and other factors. This is done not out of inefficiency but solely based on safety reasons. The day the airline removes these safety mitigation processes is the day you will end up with regular occurences such as what occur in LAX.
From the outside looking in, Qantas is over staffed and inefficient,
Exactly my point. You are on the outside looking in, and hence are not in any position to accurately point a finger at any specific area that may or may not be operating effectively.
And also tell your unions to stop crapping on about how great Qantas pilots are, your not the only ones who no how to fly!
I am not sure what planet you live on. The Unions 'crap on' about how good the pilots are because it is an industry regarded fact that QF does have some of the best pilots in the world. QF pilots and engineers have been a major contributing factor in the reason why QF held the worlds most enviable safety record. No QF pilot is naieve to the fact that other airlines also have skilled pilots, but it is not just the Unions promoting the sound reputation of QF pilots, pilots from other global airlines often agree with the Union sentiments, and so do the majority of the 22 million people residing in Australia. You won't find that level of support in a lot of other countries.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 02:17
  #125 (permalink)  
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You should team up with the other unions and work this stuff out.
We have, and we are. But what do you do when management have an agenda, an opinion that they know best, an utter disregard for their staff... and WILL NOT LISTEN!

There were many more examples. Anyway get smart and help improve Qantas performance, it may mean some job losses? But get efficient then your airline will grow and need more staff eventually.
We the frontline staff have very little control over the creation of ridiculously inefficient company policies and procedures. We see the inefficiencies every day. We inform our lower management every day. They are just as frustrated as we are at the ridiculously inefficient bureaucracy of the QF system of management, procurement, decision-making etc etc. Lower management have to somehow balance responding to over 200 emails a day - many of them irrelevant, attending meetings of up to 2 hours a day discussing the previous days cluster-fcuks, fighting with their management to get the simplest thing done and adequately responding to the genuine concerns of their staff. Someone needs to go through Bullsh!t Towers like a dose of salts. I'm sure there are massive efficiencies to be found among the Empire of the Seat-Warmers.

From the outside looking in, Qantas is over staffed and inefficient, some of this is managements problem,
I totally agree. May I add nepotistic, corrupt, narcissistic, short-sighted, incompetent? These are problems of THEIR creation.

but it is also the staffs problem.
Not of our making! Yes, the unions, staff and management could come together in a genuine, respectful forum where dialogue is encouraged, differing opinions welcomed, action points are agreed, and actions taken. But current management operates from a "Big Brother Knows Best" mindset, issuing decrees from on high with little thought, understanding or care for long-term consequences. If we were LISTENED TO OCCASIONALLY, our concerns and suggestions genuinely taken on board and acted upon, our actions toward the goal of improved efficiency recognised and rewarded, QF would be a power to be reckoned with.

But instead we're considered kamikaze rogues making outrageous claims from Cloud Cuckoo Land.

The major problem is exceptionalism is ignored, mediocrity is rewarded, and incompetence is nurtured.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 04:47
  #126 (permalink)  
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Charlie Horse, you are either deluded or naive in the extreme. The idea that by bowing to the company's desires and making Qantas even more profitable that it will improve our situation and protect our jobs is garbage.

Look at what happened at Jetstar. Their pilots were flying on an incredibly efficient EBA, supposedly making the company mountains of money.
Did that protect the employees and secure their future?? NO.
Jetstar management decided to put all future pilots on the legal bare minimum salary for an airline pilot. But that was not bad enough, you were only employed part-time and you had to take your endorsement cost out of your pay.

So the reward for being a highly efficient pilot making a fantastic return on capital for the "fastest growing airline in the world" is......

Get paid less than the absolute minimum pay as set out in law. Wow, what a great incentive to improve efficiency.

Fortunately the Jetstar pilots united together and said enough is enough, pushed back against the company and won.

Qantas does not reward efficiency, it will take the money and divide it amongst the management bonuses.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 06:13
  #127 (permalink)  
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My oleo said "it's an Industry fact that QF Pilots are some of the best in the world"..... Sure QF have some good operators, but most of the industry overseas regard QF pilots as some of the most "up yourselves" pilots in the world.
Your statements go to supporting this perception.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 06:19
  #128 (permalink)  

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For the last 40 years, for every EBA, QF management have 'signed off' on the deal without the QF pilots once threatening or resorting to any sort of industrial action. So now, given the talk that the pilots (and others) are so inefficient, should those past managers be handing back their bonuses? Dixon was at the helm for EBA 4, 5 and 6 and pocketed huge savings. If we're 'inefficient' then Dixon is complicit in the mess and therefore incompetent for agreeing to such an inefficient workplace.

So which is it? Are the unions inefficient and therefore the management incompetent? Or are the management incompetent for not agreeing to the changes that have been suggested by the line workers over the years?
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 07:11
  #129 (permalink)  
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I was on holiday in Sydney recently and overheard some Qantas managers talking in a cafe.
What a load of crap!!!

Did they have a sign on their back saying "Qantas Manager"?

You just happened to overhear a long conversation, spoken out loud, in a cafe, by people that you know to be Qantas Managers, that aligned with your views about practices that have never existed in the 20 years that I have been involved with RPT aviation. Get real!
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 07:38
  #130 (permalink)  
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So which is it? Are the unions inefficient and therefore the management incompetent? Or are the management incompetent for not agreeing to the changes that have been suggested by the line workers over the years?
Personally I think the main problem lies with management and their unwillingness to deviate from a particular agenda.
But, the truth/reality normally lies somewhere in between regardless of whether you're hearing two different stories about a fender-bender on High Street or two different stories about the demise of a good airline.
It is commonly thought in other countries that Australian Unions are fairly militant when compared with other countries. This has been beneficial for many Australian employees over the last few decades, it has been a constant battle for employers. Employees have built up great conditions with large and complex contracts that get (on average) better each year. While the labour pool was essentially Australian and the country was doing well, no problem for the Employee. Now that the labour pool is legally not restricted to Australia, the Employers (read fat-cats) see an opportunity to win a few battles and maybe even the war after decades of feeling agrieved. Some of them most likely feel personally agrieved.
Deregulation of the industry seems like an oportunity to them in this particular regard (in others it presents problems).
The long haul union is continuing to fight for new and uncontested ground out of habit. They need to take heart in the fact that they have established excellet strong-holds over the years and retreat to them. Once they have re-grouped, plan to defend their position (ie job security).
The fight for pay increases and travel benefits to match middle management etc is the fight for new ground. Leave it. You'l need all your firepower amassed in one place to avoid losing the war (job security).
If you don't drop every single claim except this one, the war may be over.
In my opinion of course.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 07:49
  #131 (permalink)  
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I second Higs. QANTAS are often referred to as the 'sky gods' by other Aussie pilots who very competently operate heavy metal in and out of Australia. By all means take a stand (better late than never after 'that year'), but be careful with the self-promotion; too much can have the opposite effect.

Last edited by Captain Dart; 11th Aug 2011 at 07:59.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 13:25
  #132 (permalink)  
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Yeah you others are all ok...but....:we are just born this way...

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Old 11th Aug 2011, 15:31
  #133 (permalink)  
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the biggest contributer to flight safety at QF is the exposure the crews get to sitting in their seat/position/type for decades before becoming captain as a result of slow growth.

If QF were cranking out skippers in 2-3 years like some carriers in the region they would quickly find they are not gods and the training system is not as good as they think it is.

Slow progression is a life saver in legacy carriers.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 15:39
  #134 (permalink)  
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AnQrKa - Cant agree more with you. I made a prediction 10 years ago about safety in some fast growth Asian airlines and I still fear some very nasty events with such a small talent pool. But then of course these new planes fly themselves and the computers are there to catch the mistakes, right AJ?

How quickly people forget accidents like the SQ 744 fatalities at TPE RIP
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 19:06
  #135 (permalink)  
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Posted before, but worth another read.

I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!

Last edited by fl610; 11th Aug 2011 at 19:44.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 23:12
  #136 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Higs
My oleo said "it's an Industry fact that QF Pilots are some of the best in the world"..... Sure QF have some good operators, but most of the industry overseas regard QF pilots as some of the most "up yourselves" pilots in the world. Your statements go to supporting this perception.
In the world? You've obviously never been to any international airshows and had a chat to the pilots!

Also, in his defence, he said "some of". That doesn't exclude everyone else.
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 23:27
  #137 (permalink)  
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Bruce not happy with moving. And perhaps a pay cut to go with it.
Jetstar denies reports it plans to move HQ from Melbourne to Asia |
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 23:53
  #138 (permalink)  
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How ironic

The maggot who forced moved JQ pilots away from their families may be forced on the next boat to china!!!

Bravo I say......and sooner the better

Oz aviation would be a better place without human garbage like this F OFF BRUCE
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Old 11th Aug 2011, 23:58
  #139 (permalink)  
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Just a reminder of old technology

CX just ordered another 12 B777 and
SQ another 8 B777's.

the geniuses in QF keep their heads in the sand
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 18:44
  #140 (permalink)  
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'give me some brown nose comments on the QF Facebook page and I will give you the chance of a shot in the QF A380 simulator'

What next?

Well, getting entrants to post on the QF Facebook page how they absolutely love traveling with QANTAS with the most complimentary testimonials is one way of improving your social media standing. Alan must have received word from his 'social media analysts' that it was all going pear shaped.

Wait for it, Alans announcement on the 24th will include the comment that customers love the product and that they have been receiving superb feedback via social media!!

No Alan, this is not genuine feedback it is basically a contrived scheme to deliberately obtain some positive social media commentary as you are obviously unable to do it based on the current product offering alone!!

Wouldn't it be good if people tried not to win the sim and started posting negative comments!

As much as a shot on the 380 sim is on my 'bucket list' I will not lower myself to your level to do it!!

More to Follow

The kelpie

Ps. Does anyone think that jetstar's move to base 'loose cannon' and some other jetstar top execs in hong kong has anything to do with qantasia? Today jetstar Asia's base, tomorrow qantasia head office? Seems suspicious to me that loose Bruce would move to hong kong. Maybe he will be announced on the 24th of August as qantas's 'man in asia' an possible indicator that he is being groomed to be Alan Joyce's successor or at the very least equal!

Well this is a Rumour network!!
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