Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
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The GCAA, Serco, the IAA, DFS et al, all thank Airservices management for their ongoing ineptitude and dazzling contribution to staffing the world's Towers and ACCs.
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And Airservices is stocked with a nice bunch of Gen Y controllers who have been patiently waiting to finish up their 5 years experience and training bond and who are keen to explore the world on proper ATC money.
The exodus will continue no doubt.
The exodus will continue no doubt.
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DNS
Actually a number of us were told that we were not wanted at all...but I'm not complaining, the trout and salmon season are just getting underway here in Ireland and we are having some great weather for a change
Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.
And do you have a strong and powerful union there?
And do you have a strong and powerful union there?
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Dick,
Why doesn't the government just buy back Air Services and have it run by CASA?
This "privatised" idea of running something like that with no competition is pretty much like handing over the banks to the loan sharks.
Why doesn't the government just buy back Air Services and have it run by CASA?
This "privatised" idea of running something like that with no competition is pretty much like handing over the banks to the loan sharks.
When the Government "owned" ATC ,ie it was a government department, it was 50% funded by general taxpayers- now that would be great for flyers but probably not that popular with taxpayers!
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Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.
40 - 15 to Dick
New Balls Please
TT
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Perhaps ATC was previously 50% funded by taxpayers, but now it's maybe 130% funded by the travelling public. They return a large dividend to the government every year - it's just another tax on travel. It's my opinion that such an essential service should be revenue neutral and not run as a business to maximise profits.
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As it happens without a union I have a regulator that protects my working hours' short changes as happens in AsA are prohibited and I am guaranteed my 56 days leave each year.
We also have a safety management culture that encourages full reporting and no longer takes a punitive approach towards controllers.
Its not perfect but I cannot see myself returning to the console in Oz.
This is all sounding repetitive, sadly I cannot see any change and colleagues who have returned to AsA are even more bitter because they have seen how good it should be.
We also have a safety management culture that encourages full reporting and no longer takes a punitive approach towards controllers.
Its not perfect but I cannot see myself returning to the console in Oz.
This is all sounding repetitive, sadly I cannot see any change and colleagues who have returned to AsA are even more bitter because they have seen how good it should be.
Last edited by Funk; 3rd Jun 2009 at 04:09. Reason: cause I can?
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15% Gross or 15% Net? Top of the heap or on average. The 'union' achieved what I believe to be a good overall package for ALL controllers. The overall value of the Profession in Australia for the first time since CAs came into existence has progressed.
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Leave Dick alone
C'mon guys, don't be too hard on him...I'm sure he means well.
But, in Ireland the lads have a reasonably strong union, and they haven't seen a decent pay-rise for ages.
But then when you are getting the equivalent of 200K Aussie AND 35 days leave AND Public Holidays off if you want AND 8KAussie for signing up to do O/T's (and then get 1k per call in...they can only ask you to do a max of 8 per year, after that it's up to you) AND Ryanair flights to Europe only cost a fiver AND everyone is happy to work there.
So nothing like AsA at all is it?
AND no one is languishing in jail here for no reason either
But, in Ireland the lads have a reasonably strong union, and they haven't seen a decent pay-rise for ages.
But then when you are getting the equivalent of 200K Aussie AND 35 days leave AND Public Holidays off if you want AND 8KAussie for signing up to do O/T's (and then get 1k per call in...they can only ask you to do a max of 8 per year, after that it's up to you) AND Ryanair flights to Europe only cost a fiver AND everyone is happy to work there.
So nothing like AsA at all is it?
AND no one is languishing in jail here for no reason either
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Remember.....
Guantanamo Bay Dick?????
All locked up with fair trials and total justice?? What crimes had they committed... apart from being ...... "BAD GUYS"!
All locked up with fair trials and total justice?? What crimes had they committed... apart from being ...... "BAD GUYS"!
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Dick,
It may not be popular to have an ATC system partly funded by the tax payers, but everyone in Oz benefits from the trade and commerce done by aviation. Wouldn't it be less popular to have aeroplanes running into each other?
I say it's time to put it back the way it was!!
It may not be popular to have an ATC system partly funded by the tax payers, but everyone in Oz benefits from the trade and commerce done by aviation. Wouldn't it be less popular to have aeroplanes running into each other?
I say it's time to put it back the way it was!!
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Sorry if this has been covered somewhere in the previous 65 pages....but...
...I've just been sent an email from AsA, asking for me to re-apply...
I've got Twr, App, and Enroute experience.....what sort of money are they offereing.....their HR dept won't elaborate on that topic.
I just don't want to spend half a day on the application if it's just worth toilet paper.....
thanks...
...I've just been sent an email from AsA, asking for me to re-apply...
I've got Twr, App, and Enroute experience.....what sort of money are they offereing.....their HR dept won't elaborate on that topic.
I just don't want to spend half a day on the application if it's just worth toilet paper.....
thanks...
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Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.
In two years, the only ex-pat in this town who ended up in the cells was released after two days for an offense that, in Australia, would have left him/her in jail for several months and a ban from driving for quite some time after that... if not for life.
No one hurt except his pride and a demolished car.
And do you have a strong and powerful union there?
Traffic...
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I wanna come back....
...to the sandpit!
Is the Rees-Jo... (GCAA) restriction of 58 years of age still applicable?
Have they openned UAQ International?? I'd lodge in a Unit near the B'cuda!!
Cheers lucky swi..., pi.., "'flu" people!!
GR
Is the Rees-Jo... (GCAA) restriction of 58 years of age still applicable?
Have they openned UAQ International?? I'd lodge in a Unit near the B'cuda!!
Cheers lucky swi..., pi.., "'flu" people!!
GR
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on the 11th of May I mentioned that the union website is starting to make a list of instances when we have less than the core rostered staff but no NOTAM issued. On a seperate thread we also listed any instances when NOTAMS were issued.
Guess what?
Nearly 1 month later, the thread recording periods of less than required staff with NO NOTAM is longer than the other thread advising of service reduction due staff shortage.
I guess TFN really wants to be able to say TIBA etc was only due the unsigned EBA - and that is a lot easier to claim if you control the notification system
Guess what?
Nearly 1 month later, the thread recording periods of less than required staff with NO NOTAM is longer than the other thread advising of service reduction due staff shortage.
I guess TFN really wants to be able to say TIBA etc was only due the unsigned EBA - and that is a lot easier to claim if you control the notification system
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RAAFies for hire
All,
So the AsA plan to solve the staff shortages is to recruit from the Air Force again. Word is that 14 have resigned to take up offers from AsA but will this actually solve the staff shortages after all?
There is no way 14 is going to solve the shortages, by my guess they are over 50 plus short still (in reality) and by years end could be over 80.
I am not here to debate the RAAF ATC system, they are in a shambles and most are underpaid (thus more leaving for supposedly greener pastures) and they are undermanned and need to right their ship soon or founder.
I have been watching this topic go around now for years and years and have been an ATCO on 4 different continents for numerous different ANSPs for over 25 years (in all streams of ATC).
The business model that is currently being used in Australia for AsA is a bloody joke. The only thing the yanks have done correctly with their ANSP the FAA is to keep it a government department. Even the Canadian model of NavCanada although not for profit also has some serious problems, mainly management as does the UK model.
If there is one that must be done is for the government to dump this “ridiculous” business model concept and run it as a government department. The prime reason is for “safety”. Yes the taxpayer may fund some, but it doesn’t have to be 50% or even 25%, just needs to break even. This way the “proper service levels” will be provided and the correct training both initial and continual IFER training will be also provided which it is currently NOT.
The main problem with the current business model is that it is too management top heavy, with all this bonus and performance bull**** built in for managers, so naturally they (the managers) will run the show with as few staff as possible to make their targets and get their bonuses. This is why a lot of the ex RAAFies are in lower management carry the can because a lot of them will do what they are told because they are used to it, not really the right way to fix things.
We also have the ex NAB training manager now the AsA college manager, pondering thoughts like why cant we get “ordinary teachers” to teach this stuff. What the f*?* does a bloody teacher know about Air Traffic Control and separation, sequencing, speed control, radar vectoring etc. Bloody nothing. This would be the same as putting an ATC in to the NAB to train bank staff about mortgages, the controller probably wouldn’t have a clue. This training centre manager placement was one of the biggest recent debacles I can remember. What is wrong with the AsA board, have they lost their marbles.
Quokka made a valid remark about relationship with management. At no stage has ASA headed by this idiot TFN, made attempts to forge a positive and meaningful long term relationship with the workface controllers. In fact it as been the opposite, ever since the AsA option commenced. I think Richard Bransons management model works the best and should be followed, very few if any unhappy campers there.
As for pay: Well everyone has an opinion of what they are worth, but from my perspective and being around the traps a while: The pay scales as of 1 July 2009 should be as follows: the minimum base for newbie controller should be between $95K and $100K (after successful completion of OJT training & licenced) and the maximum if we look at the latest agreement payscales should be a minimum of $200K. These are just salary only and not including any super (govt guarantee or other) or other allowances and would be spread over about 12 levels.
These rates of pay would account for the extreme specialist nature of the job of an Air Traffic Controller and their real input to the Australian economy, which really needs to be formally recognised by the government and fixed.
TO MR DICK SMITH:
With all due respect Dick, when it comes to Air Traffic Services provision, you really don’t have a clue. Your claim to fame is as a wealthy electronics guy made good (congratulations on that btw), a pilot who hates ATC’s and a stint at CASA. Keep your nose out of something you know nothing about, and have had no experience in.
An ANSP should be operating at 110% staffing, its as simple as that. This is not a simple business to run and Air Traffic Controllers are not as common as teachers, doctors, electronic salesman, real estate agents, etc. They have a very specific qualification which requires specific training and a specific type of person. There should be about 1100 or so not the current 900 or so and therefore make up a very very small part of the national workforce, but their input (as has been mentioned by others), to the economy by maintaining a safe airways system is very high.
Also, re the comments about being locked up in the middle east without a trial for a crime that would not be considered one in Australia. Dick you are a joke…I can see you have never lived in the Middle East and have shown your lack of “worldliness” yet again for all and sundry to see.
TO ANSA:
Mate for the first time in a long while I have to agree with you on a few points, re salaries and the “locking up issue”. Also agree with you re the emergency training issues comparison as well. Also totally agree with you about Oz learning something new from other countries and other controllers who have been overseas. That’s what is “best practice”.
Hey Ducky how goes it, settled in to the dismal Irish wx there?
Traffic long time matee!!
Think nuff said for now……I await the avalanche that will no doubt follow.
cheers
So the AsA plan to solve the staff shortages is to recruit from the Air Force again. Word is that 14 have resigned to take up offers from AsA but will this actually solve the staff shortages after all?
There is no way 14 is going to solve the shortages, by my guess they are over 50 plus short still (in reality) and by years end could be over 80.
I am not here to debate the RAAF ATC system, they are in a shambles and most are underpaid (thus more leaving for supposedly greener pastures) and they are undermanned and need to right their ship soon or founder.
I have been watching this topic go around now for years and years and have been an ATCO on 4 different continents for numerous different ANSPs for over 25 years (in all streams of ATC).
The business model that is currently being used in Australia for AsA is a bloody joke. The only thing the yanks have done correctly with their ANSP the FAA is to keep it a government department. Even the Canadian model of NavCanada although not for profit also has some serious problems, mainly management as does the UK model.
If there is one that must be done is for the government to dump this “ridiculous” business model concept and run it as a government department. The prime reason is for “safety”. Yes the taxpayer may fund some, but it doesn’t have to be 50% or even 25%, just needs to break even. This way the “proper service levels” will be provided and the correct training both initial and continual IFER training will be also provided which it is currently NOT.
The main problem with the current business model is that it is too management top heavy, with all this bonus and performance bull**** built in for managers, so naturally they (the managers) will run the show with as few staff as possible to make their targets and get their bonuses. This is why a lot of the ex RAAFies are in lower management carry the can because a lot of them will do what they are told because they are used to it, not really the right way to fix things.
We also have the ex NAB training manager now the AsA college manager, pondering thoughts like why cant we get “ordinary teachers” to teach this stuff. What the f*?* does a bloody teacher know about Air Traffic Control and separation, sequencing, speed control, radar vectoring etc. Bloody nothing. This would be the same as putting an ATC in to the NAB to train bank staff about mortgages, the controller probably wouldn’t have a clue. This training centre manager placement was one of the biggest recent debacles I can remember. What is wrong with the AsA board, have they lost their marbles.
Quokka made a valid remark about relationship with management. At no stage has ASA headed by this idiot TFN, made attempts to forge a positive and meaningful long term relationship with the workface controllers. In fact it as been the opposite, ever since the AsA option commenced. I think Richard Bransons management model works the best and should be followed, very few if any unhappy campers there.
As for pay: Well everyone has an opinion of what they are worth, but from my perspective and being around the traps a while: The pay scales as of 1 July 2009 should be as follows: the minimum base for newbie controller should be between $95K and $100K (after successful completion of OJT training & licenced) and the maximum if we look at the latest agreement payscales should be a minimum of $200K. These are just salary only and not including any super (govt guarantee or other) or other allowances and would be spread over about 12 levels.
These rates of pay would account for the extreme specialist nature of the job of an Air Traffic Controller and their real input to the Australian economy, which really needs to be formally recognised by the government and fixed.
TO MR DICK SMITH:
With all due respect Dick, when it comes to Air Traffic Services provision, you really don’t have a clue. Your claim to fame is as a wealthy electronics guy made good (congratulations on that btw), a pilot who hates ATC’s and a stint at CASA. Keep your nose out of something you know nothing about, and have had no experience in.
An ANSP should be operating at 110% staffing, its as simple as that. This is not a simple business to run and Air Traffic Controllers are not as common as teachers, doctors, electronic salesman, real estate agents, etc. They have a very specific qualification which requires specific training and a specific type of person. There should be about 1100 or so not the current 900 or so and therefore make up a very very small part of the national workforce, but their input (as has been mentioned by others), to the economy by maintaining a safe airways system is very high.
Also, re the comments about being locked up in the middle east without a trial for a crime that would not be considered one in Australia. Dick you are a joke…I can see you have never lived in the Middle East and have shown your lack of “worldliness” yet again for all and sundry to see.
TO ANSA:
Mate for the first time in a long while I have to agree with you on a few points, re salaries and the “locking up issue”. Also agree with you re the emergency training issues comparison as well. Also totally agree with you about Oz learning something new from other countries and other controllers who have been overseas. That’s what is “best practice”.
Hey Ducky how goes it, settled in to the dismal Irish wx there?
Traffic long time matee!!
Think nuff said for now……I await the avalanche that will no doubt follow.
cheers
Last edited by 253; 4th Jul 2009 at 03:26.
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One of the most telling things is the recruitment page on the ASA website.
I cannot believe the amount of management vacancies that are constantly posted there. It really is amazing how many managers are needed in Australia. How do they fit them all into that Canberra building - and what the hell do they do all day every day.....?
I cannot believe the amount of management vacancies that are constantly posted there. It really is amazing how many managers are needed in Australia. How do they fit them all into that Canberra building - and what the hell do they do all day every day.....?