RAAF ATC Staffing Levels
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Bollocks,
ADATS can see them coming (I'm ex RAAF - SURAD, Siemens Watchman and ADATS) . The designation of a FLOWs is internal management (eg CS does not have Maestro) policy, the utilisation of the whizz/prayer wheel by your flow controller is at management's discretion (betcha most don't know how to use one), again internal. IF you have a FLOW its 44 Wg's decision, but when I was a supervisor, your job was to control by remote - check them out before they are ready and the Sup can't piss or **** just watch these clowns work, if you are lucky you get a good controller that lets you leave tp fill a coffee cup or piss.
Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.
270 in a 737 buys you 5 miles. A 10deg kick perp to the field on first contact buys you another 5 (1 in 60 rule). There is 10.
Repeat after me..."Virgin xxx, reduce to 270 knots, turn L/R 10 degrees due sequencing, you are number 5 to land, 45 track miles to run"
I know a few controllers that feed TVL, THEY OFFER a lot of stuff...they shake their head when their unsolicited FLOW is rejected but they do watch the airshow, I bet.
ADATS can see them coming (I'm ex RAAF - SURAD, Siemens Watchman and ADATS) . The designation of a FLOWs is internal management (eg CS does not have Maestro) policy, the utilisation of the whizz/prayer wheel by your flow controller is at management's discretion (betcha most don't know how to use one), again internal. IF you have a FLOW its 44 Wg's decision, but when I was a supervisor, your job was to control by remote - check them out before they are ready and the Sup can't piss or **** just watch these clowns work, if you are lucky you get a good controller that lets you leave tp fill a coffee cup or piss.
Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.
270 in a 737 buys you 5 miles. A 10deg kick perp to the field on first contact buys you another 5 (1 in 60 rule). There is 10.
Repeat after me..."Virgin xxx, reduce to 270 knots, turn L/R 10 degrees due sequencing, you are number 5 to land, 45 track miles to run"
I know a few controllers that feed TVL, THEY OFFER a lot of stuff...they shake their head when their unsolicited FLOW is rejected but they do watch the airshow, I bet.
Track coastal,
You obviously have a better understanding of what does or doesn't happen, your comments mirror my perceptions of.
It can be a truely frustrating subject.
You obviously have a better understanding of what does or doesn't happen, your comments mirror my perceptions of.
It can be a truely frustrating subject.
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DN in the 90s mate (people from around then are at CS, MC, BN, SY, ML, AD, PH, overseas etc etc)
I've always felt that if you ARE going to dick around some pointy thing with people on board, when they call the TWR at around 5 miles, they can SEE who they are following on 1 mile final or the TWR is giving 'get off my runway' instructions to some lightie...it saves the skip calling up enquiring as to the tour they just got. A touch of speed and a strategic 10degs saves an airshow.
The shock and awe at the two tied with 40 to run is amusing...nah *ROFLMAO*
I've always felt that if you ARE going to dick around some pointy thing with people on board, when they call the TWR at around 5 miles, they can SEE who they are following on 1 mile final or the TWR is giving 'get off my runway' instructions to some lightie...it saves the skip calling up enquiring as to the tour they just got. A touch of speed and a strategic 10degs saves an airshow.
The shock and awe at the two tied with 40 to run is amusing...nah *ROFLMAO*
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Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.
Thank you for your sensationalism - perhaps a journo in previous life?
There is no panic. Even when the 2 way tie is only one sequencing issue out of many (17 acft on freq, including 2x4 ships of F18s - counted as 2, not 8 of the 17 - mixing it with everything from commercial jets to C172s, arrivals, departures and instrument approach training etc). It doesn't make my life any more uncomfortable - just the acft and its pax that have to be significantly vectored, held, reduced etc.
And as far as using small degrees of speed control in such a small airspace - exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270? Even throwing the anchors out, remember your still looking at only 40nm to the threshold - the confliction will occur svereal miles before that and there are other acft to consider as well!) By the time they've reached the 270 they've travelled far enough to cause another confliction.
Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic, we no longer rate people with the provision of supervision (normal, normal). Now, when someone is rated it means "here you go, chum, we're short staffed today so you'll be doing supertower with another boggie SMC/PLN". Obviously our roster writers try incredibly hard to avoid this scenario, but it's hard to make a patchwork quilt with half the materials .... and it's gonna get harder real soon!
But the point initally was that this perception that RAAFies deliberately faff civvy acft around or are all basically incompetent is crap. Sure, there are some who believe that we are only allotted a certain number of heartbeats in our lifetime and so are reluctant to work that little bit harder - but you'll find those in any company, occupation or local pub.
The majority are professional, hard working (we don't get paid for our overtime) and trying to provide the best service we can with the tools available (ADATS is crap, bring back IRDS). I've worked for the dark side, too, and I don't think ASA is any better run - I wish you guys all the best for better pay and conditions.
To simply say that TL ATC sucks is neither accurate nor productive. Contact the SATCO, phone, email, write or even visit the controllers to air your concerns, contact your local MP if it suits you better - but provide specifics - date, time, scenario (from your vantage point). If the tapes were pulled you may well see there was a lot of other stuff going on that you were unaware of. Or you may find that you are justified in having your knickers in a knot. Either way, you raise awareness of the issue (yours and/or theirs).
There is no panic. Even when the 2 way tie is only one sequencing issue out of many (17 acft on freq, including 2x4 ships of F18s - counted as 2, not 8 of the 17 - mixing it with everything from commercial jets to C172s, arrivals, departures and instrument approach training etc). It doesn't make my life any more uncomfortable - just the acft and its pax that have to be significantly vectored, held, reduced etc.
And as far as using small degrees of speed control in such a small airspace - exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270? Even throwing the anchors out, remember your still looking at only 40nm to the threshold - the confliction will occur svereal miles before that and there are other acft to consider as well!) By the time they've reached the 270 they've travelled far enough to cause another confliction.
Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic, we no longer rate people with the provision of supervision (normal, normal). Now, when someone is rated it means "here you go, chum, we're short staffed today so you'll be doing supertower with another boggie SMC/PLN". Obviously our roster writers try incredibly hard to avoid this scenario, but it's hard to make a patchwork quilt with half the materials .... and it's gonna get harder real soon!
But the point initally was that this perception that RAAFies deliberately faff civvy acft around or are all basically incompetent is crap. Sure, there are some who believe that we are only allotted a certain number of heartbeats in our lifetime and so are reluctant to work that little bit harder - but you'll find those in any company, occupation or local pub.
The majority are professional, hard working (we don't get paid for our overtime) and trying to provide the best service we can with the tools available (ADATS is crap, bring back IRDS). I've worked for the dark side, too, and I don't think ASA is any better run - I wish you guys all the best for better pay and conditions.
To simply say that TL ATC sucks is neither accurate nor productive. Contact the SATCO, phone, email, write or even visit the controllers to air your concerns, contact your local MP if it suits you better - but provide specifics - date, time, scenario (from your vantage point). If the tapes were pulled you may well see there was a lot of other stuff going on that you were unaware of. Or you may find that you are justified in having your knickers in a knot. Either way, you raise awareness of the issue (yours and/or theirs).
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Most jets descend at around 300, the A320 can give you 340 BUT Jetstar is on a fuel saving thing and prefers 280ish (BA46 stuff). Min clean on the Virgin 700s is around 210, the 320 and QFs old TJs is 220.
If you keep em on the STAR and its hands free, most will take the speed before vectors as long as the aircraft is still clean.
I reckon a couple of old 76 drivers may have pushed 350 hand flying(Keg?) BUT its INDICATED AIRSPEED son...
(When I say 270, its KIAS, even tho he's motoring at 350GS.)
PS If everyone is at 220 you can still do the sudoku
If you keep em on the STAR and its hands free, most will take the speed before vectors as long as the aircraft is still clean.
exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270
(When I say 270, its KIAS, even tho he's motoring at 350GS.)
PS If everyone is at 220 you can still do the sudoku
Last edited by Track Coastal; 23rd Jun 2008 at 11:44.
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Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic,
*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.
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Gotta laugh there TC. I am one of the 90's DN guys and you summed it up nicely!!! RAAF doesn't have the talent pool that they once had and haven't had it since the exodus began back in the mid 90's. As for the honcho's once being our peers - I gotta say that is scary!!
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As ex TVL I believe this was a major issue years ago.
Townsville Traffic Management Plan anyone ?
Various RAPAC meetings discussed the problem, but no one took ownership of the responsibility to produce one. Of course with the Mil there were always distractions, and over the years the odd war and war game detachment (primary task?) have often got in the way of creating an effective TMP or allowing any effective follow up to any proposed changes that could have made TVL more effective at what it does. And, leadership and direction were often absent as certain well qualified or higher ranking individuals ( the experienced Sups and Training officers for example) were often spirited away at short notice with no real consideration for the impact on training or the provision of ATC services to Jo Public; at what is advertised as an International Airport.
And in the absence of any proactive flow / sequencing from Brissy, often the only way for the App controller to "cope" when busy, was to rely on the supervisor standing behind him / her directing operations:
"This is The sequence ...this is my Plan ... make it so number 1!"
Often the only way the Sup could do this with any degree of safety and expedition, was to rely on the application of the unwritten rules called "corporate knowledge", and the experience and lessons learned from the successes / misjudgements made over previous years on the customer (hence the complaints within this post). When he moved on, this knowledge and skill set also moved on, thereby distilling further the all round effectiveness of those left behind; as is the case now I understand.
These are not new comments but I understand that with ASA now "gloves off" regarding the hiring of controllers, and staff much higher up the food chain, (acting OC 44 WG for example - good luck M by the way!) this staffing problem within the Mil may have some real Operational, and, dare I say it, potential flight safety issues down the track.
Where to from here anyone?
Should ASA take over all Mil Bases ? After all, and almost uniquely worldwide - same rules, regs, docs and staff in waiting!
Good luck to all involved (though Luck shouldnt come into it)
DogGone:
Townsville Traffic Management Plan anyone ?
Various RAPAC meetings discussed the problem, but no one took ownership of the responsibility to produce one. Of course with the Mil there were always distractions, and over the years the odd war and war game detachment (primary task?) have often got in the way of creating an effective TMP or allowing any effective follow up to any proposed changes that could have made TVL more effective at what it does. And, leadership and direction were often absent as certain well qualified or higher ranking individuals ( the experienced Sups and Training officers for example) were often spirited away at short notice with no real consideration for the impact on training or the provision of ATC services to Jo Public; at what is advertised as an International Airport.
And in the absence of any proactive flow / sequencing from Brissy, often the only way for the App controller to "cope" when busy, was to rely on the supervisor standing behind him / her directing operations:
"This is The sequence ...this is my Plan ... make it so number 1!"
Often the only way the Sup could do this with any degree of safety and expedition, was to rely on the application of the unwritten rules called "corporate knowledge", and the experience and lessons learned from the successes / misjudgements made over previous years on the customer (hence the complaints within this post). When he moved on, this knowledge and skill set also moved on, thereby distilling further the all round effectiveness of those left behind; as is the case now I understand.
These are not new comments but I understand that with ASA now "gloves off" regarding the hiring of controllers, and staff much higher up the food chain, (acting OC 44 WG for example - good luck M by the way!) this staffing problem within the Mil may have some real Operational, and, dare I say it, potential flight safety issues down the track.
Where to from here anyone?
Should ASA take over all Mil Bases ? After all, and almost uniquely worldwide - same rules, regs, docs and staff in waiting!
Good luck to all involved (though Luck shouldnt come into it)
DogGone:
Last edited by BurglarsDog; 23rd Jun 2008 at 19:27. Reason: spelling
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Capt Grumpy - anything constructive?
1. use correct phraseology, especially the sequence of instructions
2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once
3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM.
Just off the top of my head.
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It begs the question why the hell are Townsville and Darwin still RAAF airports when they have no permanent aircraft based their?
As a former Tops man it was near thing as to who was worse, our AsA procedures t/l's or DN satco's. My favourite was the 11 mile wide corridor 40DN to abm TN one our brainiacs came up with between two restricted airpaces for the major jet routes in and out of Darwin....special
It is the same old problem for the military, they do not provide a living wage for ATC's on top of the 3 year posting rotations. I remember once visiting AMB App back in the 90's and the most senior guy there had 18 months at AMB everybody else in cluding the SATC had less than 12 months.
As a former Tops man it was near thing as to who was worse, our AsA procedures t/l's or DN satco's. My favourite was the 11 mile wide corridor 40DN to abm TN one our brainiacs came up with between two restricted airpaces for the major jet routes in and out of Darwin....special
It is the same old problem for the military, they do not provide a living wage for ATC's on top of the 3 year posting rotations. I remember once visiting AMB App back in the 90's and the most senior guy there had 18 months at AMB everybody else in cluding the SATC had less than 12 months.
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Gents (and Lady),
Let's have a reality check here.
1) The minimum IQ set for entry to RAAF ATC is well above average, meaning that you aren't dealing with dunces, as much as it may come across that way from where you sit. Inexperienced, yes. Dumb, absolutely not. Two of the three most intelligent and calculating individuals I know work in DN (the other is a professor of Astronomy). One or two individuals make me roll my eyes occasionally, but that's life. The fact that so many are poached to work in Civil airports should dispel this myth.
2) DN ATC in the '90's had 72,000-101,000 moves/year (depending on year), in the same zone as it currently has. DNs average MTOW had also risen significantly since then (remember Air North used to fly C210s?), I can't back this part up with stats however. The IFR proportion would likely also have been significantly lower. Any thought that you and your peers were somehow more gifted than the current crop is absolute ****e. Get over yourself. "The older I get, the better I was" springs to mind.
3) RENURPP, I know who you are and I'm quite good with voices. I won't embarrass you by publishing your stuffups over the years - but there's been plently of them. As a start, you have been on board during two level busts in the last few months (hint: think hard about your level assignment at ~28nm as this was the same spot, same level each time). Contrary to your belief, you are not God's gift to Aviation and whilst your attempts to fly 'by the numbers' is admirable, the reality is that your Company peers are generally of a higher standard than yourself. I don't generally discuss this publicly because I think it's offensive to badmouth without being constructive. Obviously you don't share this view.
To reiterate others thoughts, if you have constructive advice, phone the SATCO and ask to possibly review a specific incident with him. All (bar a very few) of the RAAF ATCs I know give it their all every day to ensure you get their best possible service.
A bit of mutual respect would go a long way in this debate. I don't normally post on here, but the disrespect by some of you is intolerable. I won't respond further and I suggest some of you do the same, for the sake of the (original) discussion.
Let's have a reality check here.
1) The minimum IQ set for entry to RAAF ATC is well above average, meaning that you aren't dealing with dunces, as much as it may come across that way from where you sit. Inexperienced, yes. Dumb, absolutely not. Two of the three most intelligent and calculating individuals I know work in DN (the other is a professor of Astronomy). One or two individuals make me roll my eyes occasionally, but that's life. The fact that so many are poached to work in Civil airports should dispel this myth.
2) DN ATC in the '90's had 72,000-101,000 moves/year (depending on year), in the same zone as it currently has. DNs average MTOW had also risen significantly since then (remember Air North used to fly C210s?), I can't back this part up with stats however. The IFR proportion would likely also have been significantly lower. Any thought that you and your peers were somehow more gifted than the current crop is absolute ****e. Get over yourself. "The older I get, the better I was" springs to mind.
3) RENURPP, I know who you are and I'm quite good with voices. I won't embarrass you by publishing your stuffups over the years - but there's been plently of them. As a start, you have been on board during two level busts in the last few months (hint: think hard about your level assignment at ~28nm as this was the same spot, same level each time). Contrary to your belief, you are not God's gift to Aviation and whilst your attempts to fly 'by the numbers' is admirable, the reality is that your Company peers are generally of a higher standard than yourself. I don't generally discuss this publicly because I think it's offensive to badmouth without being constructive. Obviously you don't share this view.
To reiterate others thoughts, if you have constructive advice, phone the SATCO and ask to possibly review a specific incident with him. All (bar a very few) of the RAAF ATCs I know give it their all every day to ensure you get their best possible service.
A bit of mutual respect would go a long way in this debate. I don't normally post on here, but the disrespect by some of you is intolerable. I won't respond further and I suggest some of you do the same, for the sake of the (original) discussion.
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Originally Posted by Track Coastal
Luke, I'm your father (If you like moving aircraft come over mate, as in metal moving* and remember your WGCDRs and GPCAPTs are our old peers).
*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.
*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.
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This has got to be one of the biggest thread drifts of all times!
Back to the topic......I know RAAFies are not encouraged to post on the 'prune, but I'm sure there is some interesting news and/or reactions. Feel free to PM me if you want
How about we all take a step back. If people want to bag ATC/aircrew/management/whatever, start another thread (or get a room)
Cheers,
NFR.
Back to the topic......I know RAAFies are not encouraged to post on the 'prune, but I'm sure there is some interesting news and/or reactions. Feel free to PM me if you want
How about we all take a step back. If people want to bag ATC/aircrew/management/whatever, start another thread (or get a room
)Cheers,
NFR.
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Have I missed something Chicken Lips? If you want to spend thirty years talking to aeroplanes you go civ, if you want to be a manager you stay blue (8 - 10 years on the radio and thats it). Simply because as a line ATC in the civ world you are left alone and get paid in excess of a WGCDR (as you should).
I just went to a retirement party where a guy had 36 years on the air. I reckon Binoculars would have 30+ years of seperating and sequencing. You choose that path, as I have. I have no interest in rising above FPC, I like the job. If you choose that path in the RAAF you are frowned upon (eg the 15 year Flight Lieutenant jokes).
Whisk writes a good post. No-one thinks that the RAAFies are stupid or untalented but as Funk says, if your 'corporate knowledge' senior controller in the room has less than 18 months in the unit, what do you expect? We all came from there, and anyways I reckon you should always remember your "roots".
When we were 'Base Squadrons' our core job was moving aeroplanes at the base. Then we went mother 'wing' and 'tactical' and our core skills went out the window, [y]our core job became getting deployed.
I remember the 'Willy Whips' comments from 13+ years ago - well the Willy execs have all resigned...ship, rudder, heloooo.
44WG (41WG before) has sewn this problem and they can reap it.
Any care to comment on the host of ESOs that went to units on promotion and couldn't get rated (some were 'golden' and had a constant beam pointing at the floor from their sphincter ani on the tip of their spinal column - from their 'tactical ATC' superiority)?
PS DN in the 90s moved well excess of 110,000 moves pa (I remember a 120). The issue with replacing 2 PA31s and 2 C210s with one E120 on the same route is no potential sep loss between the daisy chain of 4 from TN or Maningrida. Easier on the licence.
PPS So how does providing an ATC service (sometimes a Flight Info Service) in a JAO (a far flung ****hole) with the USA (whom have dedicated units awaiting and trained to do such) help or develop our core ATC skills? You reap what you sew.
I just went to a retirement party where a guy had 36 years on the air. I reckon Binoculars would have 30+ years of seperating and sequencing. You choose that path, as I have. I have no interest in rising above FPC, I like the job. If you choose that path in the RAAF you are frowned upon (eg the 15 year Flight Lieutenant jokes).
Whisk writes a good post. No-one thinks that the RAAFies are stupid or untalented but as Funk says, if your 'corporate knowledge' senior controller in the room has less than 18 months in the unit, what do you expect? We all came from there, and anyways I reckon you should always remember your "roots".
When we were 'Base Squadrons' our core job was moving aeroplanes at the base. Then we went mother 'wing' and 'tactical' and our core skills went out the window, [y]our core job became getting deployed.
I remember the 'Willy Whips' comments from 13+ years ago - well the Willy execs have all resigned...ship, rudder, heloooo.
44WG (41WG before) has sewn this problem and they can reap it.
Any care to comment on the host of ESOs that went to units on promotion and couldn't get rated (some were 'golden' and had a constant beam pointing at the floor from their sphincter ani on the tip of their spinal column - from their 'tactical ATC' superiority)?
PS DN in the 90s moved well excess of 110,000 moves pa (I remember a 120). The issue with replacing 2 PA31s and 2 C210s with one E120 on the same route is no potential sep loss between the daisy chain of 4 from TN or Maningrida. Easier on the licence.
PPS So how does providing an ATC service (sometimes a Flight Info Service) in a JAO (a far flung ****hole) with the USA (whom have dedicated units awaiting and trained to do such) help or develop our core ATC skills? You reap what you sew.
Last edited by Track Coastal; 24th Jun 2008 at 11:55.
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Get used to CTAF
Some of you people out there are absolute tossers. Get over yourselves. The thread was about the same old story. RAAF can't keep their people because they treat them like crap, stuff their families around and flog them until they have had enough. Some of you bitch and complain about them, yet do nothing except whinge, whilst these kids in Blue are prepared to put their life on the line so you can stay at home and bitch about them. Tosser's, you know who you are.
Every couple of years ASA comes along, after yet another failed attempt at a national ATC plan, offering heaps of extra dollars and people leave the RAAF. Thats life, its called supply and demand. No different to Virgin, Qantas etc recruiting from REX or other regionals. RAAF tries to train more with their crap budgets and as soon as ASA crap on their people, who subsequently head OS, RAAF loses more staff. Its nothing more than a big merry go round, except this time the merry go round is broken. ASA and RAAF can't attract enough new kids to the job because they get treated like crap and aren't interested in this sort of career anymore. BS on forums attacking people doesn't help. Most of those Blue ATC's have buggar all time up. Get off their backs, remember when you learn't to fly or the first time you had to vector several acft.
Here is some history for you.
In 2003, ASA and defence came up with the Intergrated Operating Concept (IOC) at great expense to ASA. They spent heaps on it and defence eventually rejected it, due cost to the tax payers. ASA said gloves off and recruited 14 RAAF ATC's. Back to the drawing board again.
2005 and project Genesis dawns and a new era for Aust. ATC begins. Pearce App from Perth TMA using Taaats and the relocation of DN and TVL approach etc to Brisbane centre again using Taaats (I can feel maestro and TMP's coming on). What happens, it all turns to **** and Defence pulls the plug again because ASA wants to charge Defence millions to provide the service. I say Defence because RAAF ATC got told what to do by the government. By the way RAAF ATC is actually controlled by RAAF PILOTS. Another point, The Manual of Air Traffic Services MATS, is a joint document and again signed off by another RAAF PILOT. The ATC's at the coalface are applying rules approved by pilots.
What I find funny is that both department of defence and transport are owned by the same government but a national ATC plan can't get sorted out. After all, we are only talking about 1200 ATC's around the country but it all seems to hard.
Whisk01 mentioned "mutual respect". When was the last time you went to visit an ATC section aircrew or when did you ATC's go flying ? Learn what each other does and show some respect. Share your knowledge. Remember that someone taught you, what you know. Don't moan and bitch about how bad it is, write to your federal members, what about AOPA. Do something positive.
If you choose to keep on whining and do nothing, you better get used to TIBA and CTAF boys (and girls) because soon there wont be anyone on the other end of those radios.
Every couple of years ASA comes along, after yet another failed attempt at a national ATC plan, offering heaps of extra dollars and people leave the RAAF. Thats life, its called supply and demand. No different to Virgin, Qantas etc recruiting from REX or other regionals. RAAF tries to train more with their crap budgets and as soon as ASA crap on their people, who subsequently head OS, RAAF loses more staff. Its nothing more than a big merry go round, except this time the merry go round is broken. ASA and RAAF can't attract enough new kids to the job because they get treated like crap and aren't interested in this sort of career anymore. BS on forums attacking people doesn't help. Most of those Blue ATC's have buggar all time up. Get off their backs, remember when you learn't to fly or the first time you had to vector several acft.
Here is some history for you.
In 2003, ASA and defence came up with the Intergrated Operating Concept (IOC) at great expense to ASA. They spent heaps on it and defence eventually rejected it, due cost to the tax payers. ASA said gloves off and recruited 14 RAAF ATC's. Back to the drawing board again.
2005 and project Genesis dawns and a new era for Aust. ATC begins. Pearce App from Perth TMA using Taaats and the relocation of DN and TVL approach etc to Brisbane centre again using Taaats (I can feel maestro and TMP's coming on). What happens, it all turns to **** and Defence pulls the plug again because ASA wants to charge Defence millions to provide the service. I say Defence because RAAF ATC got told what to do by the government. By the way RAAF ATC is actually controlled by RAAF PILOTS. Another point, The Manual of Air Traffic Services MATS, is a joint document and again signed off by another RAAF PILOT. The ATC's at the coalface are applying rules approved by pilots.
What I find funny is that both department of defence and transport are owned by the same government but a national ATC plan can't get sorted out. After all, we are only talking about 1200 ATC's around the country but it all seems to hard.
Whisk01 mentioned "mutual respect". When was the last time you went to visit an ATC section aircrew or when did you ATC's go flying ? Learn what each other does and show some respect. Share your knowledge. Remember that someone taught you, what you know. Don't moan and bitch about how bad it is, write to your federal members, what about AOPA. Do something positive.
If you choose to keep on whining and do nothing, you better get used to TIBA and CTAF boys (and girls) because soon there wont be anyone on the other end of those radios.
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C-change... nice work.
I hear there is a new GPCAT in Mr B but, I fear the horse may have bolted
Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?
I hear there is a new GPCAT in Mr B but, I fear the horse may have bolted
Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Well written, Whisk (who would never blow his own trumpet but is an extremely gifted, as well as hard working, controller).
Should pilots expect a quality service? Absolutely. And if there were more communication between pilots and ATC about any issues that arise (rather than pointless, vague whinging) then no doubt the service would continually evolve.
ATC is not a job where you unplug one day and say "well, that's it, I'm now perfect". There is always room for improvement, always another way to "skin the cat" and most of us drive home replaying sequences and wondering what we could have done differently to achieve a better outcome all round.
Not all RAAFies stay blue because they want to end up driving a desk. Some of us are happy to stay line controllers because we like talking to aircraft! And having tried the grass on the other side of the fence - some of us prefer the RAAF as an employer (hard to believe, I know). For me ASA has only 2 advantages over the RAAF - location stability and the fact that they pay you for the $hit they make you do - O/T, prof development, shiftwork etc (a Darwin ATCO working 24/7 gets paid the same as a Sale ATCO working basically office hours - and they even took ERL of us for a while in the mid-naughties!).
There comes a time when those 2 advantages (particularly the location stability) become increasingly important (kids at school, parents ageing, sick of unpacking boxes etc) to most RAAFies and so when ASA dangle a nice carrot (like the current offers) there is a huge rush to jump ship.
Why do we persist with RAAF control at Darwin and Townsville - 1stly because ASA don't want them - not enough profit apparently. 2ndly because they are fantastic training grounds (even if we do lose 2 out of every 3 controllers eventually to ASA) and are part of the reason Aussie military ATCOs are held in such high regard overseas.
Project Genesis would have greatly improved both the service provided and RAAF retention by addressing the location aspect - I'd be happy to do Darwin APP from Brissie till retirement - as would most of our workforce - Brisbane being the most desired location (closely followed by Willy apparently).
As to the current ASA-RAAF poaching. I've heard the same figures (17 that I know by name). Don't know how many have accepted, but the offer was good enough to make me visit the ASA application page myself (never say never....) so I imagine most, if not all, will take it (be mad not to really).
The Willy execs are not part of the ASA recruitment from what I've heard (although I believe the acting OC is taking up an ASA job - not line controlling).
44WG HQ have not yet reacted - I guess they're waiting for actual resignations to hit their desks before assessing the damage. Bit disappointing really as it would be nice to know what the plan is? They know that we know and all that - rumour mill being what it is - so why not put something out there to reassure those of us who are staying behind to switch off the lights? (Everyone click your heels together and wish "Genesis, Genesis, Genesis").
Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....)
Should pilots expect a quality service? Absolutely. And if there were more communication between pilots and ATC about any issues that arise (rather than pointless, vague whinging) then no doubt the service would continually evolve.
ATC is not a job where you unplug one day and say "well, that's it, I'm now perfect". There is always room for improvement, always another way to "skin the cat" and most of us drive home replaying sequences and wondering what we could have done differently to achieve a better outcome all round.
Not all RAAFies stay blue because they want to end up driving a desk. Some of us are happy to stay line controllers because we like talking to aircraft! And having tried the grass on the other side of the fence - some of us prefer the RAAF as an employer (hard to believe, I know). For me ASA has only 2 advantages over the RAAF - location stability and the fact that they pay you for the $hit they make you do - O/T, prof development, shiftwork etc (a Darwin ATCO working 24/7 gets paid the same as a Sale ATCO working basically office hours - and they even took ERL of us for a while in the mid-naughties!).
There comes a time when those 2 advantages (particularly the location stability) become increasingly important (kids at school, parents ageing, sick of unpacking boxes etc) to most RAAFies and so when ASA dangle a nice carrot (like the current offers) there is a huge rush to jump ship.
Why do we persist with RAAF control at Darwin and Townsville - 1stly because ASA don't want them - not enough profit apparently. 2ndly because they are fantastic training grounds (even if we do lose 2 out of every 3 controllers eventually to ASA) and are part of the reason Aussie military ATCOs are held in such high regard overseas.
Project Genesis would have greatly improved both the service provided and RAAF retention by addressing the location aspect - I'd be happy to do Darwin APP from Brissie till retirement - as would most of our workforce - Brisbane being the most desired location (closely followed by Willy apparently).
As to the current ASA-RAAF poaching. I've heard the same figures (17 that I know by name). Don't know how many have accepted, but the offer was good enough to make me visit the ASA application page myself (never say never....) so I imagine most, if not all, will take it (be mad not to really).
The Willy execs are not part of the ASA recruitment from what I've heard (although I believe the acting OC is taking up an ASA job - not line controlling).
44WG HQ have not yet reacted - I guess they're waiting for actual resignations to hit their desks before assessing the damage. Bit disappointing really as it would be nice to know what the plan is? They know that we know and all that - rumour mill being what it is - so why not put something out there to reassure those of us who are staying behind to switch off the lights? (Everyone click your heels together and wish "Genesis, Genesis, Genesis").
Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....)
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....)
Then again, with a new federal govt (voted in after Genesis called off) anything's possible!