1989- Pilots dispute 19 years on
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A great post Sherm, could not have said it better myself. For all what happened some things I would never change. I had the privilege to be a young first officer and fly with the greats. Blokes who were from Bomber Command, who often shy about talking about their experiences, but after a skinful would sometimes share their lives and experiences. Blokes who had survived crashes only to be taken as POWs and placed in Stalag camps, escaped, got caught again, and escaped again. Blokes who spent the night floating around in the English Channel, Blokes who survived the 30 sorties, and went back again. They were tough hard young men, but had already seen to much, and by the time they got back and joined the Airlines, they were seasoned flyers and a inspiration to a young hairy arsed F/O like me. What a privilege to even share the same flight deck. I often thought in my later years, and having returned from OS after the dreaded 89 and finally ending up in QF, that some of the so called Sky Gods ( and I met a few) but only a few, where not even in the same league as these blokes, these condesending, overblown Pr%$Ks talking themselves up and thinking, mate you have no idea. You never had the chance I had, to fly with the best of the best.
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"Fate is the Hunter”….Kermode ...."Dawn Patrol” and “The Dam Busters”.....Convair down the Brisbane River...etc etc
But herein lies the clue as to why things went so badly.
The other side was reading Machiavelli and Sun Tsu and dreaming of world domination.
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Lets keep names out of it fella's there is enough hurt. We all know who was up who and who had'nt paid. Milkybarkid, you must be a young buck us old blokes cannot afford to be so cynical, I hope you can remain that way for years to come.
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As to where the gentleman wound up, I do not know.
The last I heard of him was a relayed threat to disrupt operations at DPO (he lived in the area and commuted) and a message was relayed back through channels now forgotten to "try once, and make it a good one - it will hurt!
He never showed up for the alleged blockade. Just as well. None of us had anything personal against him.
Best all.
EWL
The last I heard of him was a relayed threat to disrupt operations at DPO (he lived in the area and commuted) and a message was relayed back through channels now forgotten to "try once, and make it a good one - it will hurt!
He never showed up for the alleged blockade. Just as well. None of us had anything personal against him.
Best all.
EWL
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Also - Milkybar
I think there is a little too much testosterone involved in your 10th input inot the room.
When you have had your Dad come home in tears to tell you that TFB that he had worked on was lost off Mackay, when you have been made redundant 3 times and had 2 Airline operations shut down, when you have your entire Airline shut down one night at midnight and are still waiting for recompense of your full entitlement, then you can be sarcastic.
I know I am only a groundie and the last instance metioned didn't happen to me, but that is my call. I stand by it. Realise your place in the food chain mate.
Best regards
EWL
I think there is a little too much testosterone involved in your 10th input inot the room.
When you have had your Dad come home in tears to tell you that TFB that he had worked on was lost off Mackay, when you have been made redundant 3 times and had 2 Airline operations shut down, when you have your entire Airline shut down one night at midnight and are still waiting for recompense of your full entitlement, then you can be sarcastic.
I know I am only a groundie and the last instance metioned didn't happen to me, but that is my call. I stand by it. Realise your place in the food chain mate.
Best regards
EWL
Moderator
radaz et al.
I had no association with the '89 pilot's dispute.
There will be no names of any individuals posted on PPRuNe.
Tail Wheel
I had no association with the '89 pilot's dispute.
There will be no names of any individuals posted on PPRuNe.
Tail Wheel
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Teresa
Cynical, guilty as charged. Young buck, regrettably no.
EastWest,
Only the missus has ever mentioned the too much testosterone bit before, and that was some time ago.
Cheers
Milkybarkid, you must be a young buck us old blokes cannot afford to be so cynical
EastWest,
I think there is a little too much testosterone involved in your 10th input inot the room.
Cheers
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Thread drift alert!! Nothing at all to do with the thread topic, but perhaps some will forgive the thread drift as I follow on from teresa green's misty-eyed post recalling some of the wonderful blokes we we so privileged to fly with, the ones who earned their wings during WW2.
Keeping with the 'no names' rule (for the pilots at least)... I was flying with one of the WW2 veterans one day when TV chef Len Evans came up onto the 727 flight deck. He mentioned that one of the most memorable days of his life was when, as a 10 year old schoolboy, he was let out of class one day in September 1944 to watch the huge number of aircraft and gliders fly overhead on their way to Arnhem. ("There were so many of them, they were like a huge dark cloud passing overhead.")
Old skipper softly buys into the conversation with: "I was flying one of those aircraft. I was skipper of a Stirling towing two gliders on the first drop."
Three jaws drop - Len Evan's, mine and the FE's. Until that comment, although we'd both known him well, neither the FE nor I had known anything about what the guy has done in the war.
After completing his 30 missions with Bomber Command, the same bloke went on to comlete a tour with 100 Group, the ones who carried the spooks who (usually) parachuted to support the French Resistance. I later pumped him for as much as he'd share with me and he told me how he'd LANDED a Stirling in an farmer's field behind German lines during the short-lived Resistance takeover of the Massif in southern France in the months immediately after D Day.
I often wondered how, after what they'd seen and done as very young men, these blokes weren't bored to snores tooling an airliner between Sydney and Melbourne four or five days a week. However, when I was looking at what seemed to be a very bleak future in late 1989 and early 1990, one of the factors that stopped me even considering stepping over into what I saw then as the enemy trenchs was the way I thought men like the one I have mentioned here would regard me if I did.
Keeping with the 'no names' rule (for the pilots at least)... I was flying with one of the WW2 veterans one day when TV chef Len Evans came up onto the 727 flight deck. He mentioned that one of the most memorable days of his life was when, as a 10 year old schoolboy, he was let out of class one day in September 1944 to watch the huge number of aircraft and gliders fly overhead on their way to Arnhem. ("There were so many of them, they were like a huge dark cloud passing overhead.")
Old skipper softly buys into the conversation with: "I was flying one of those aircraft. I was skipper of a Stirling towing two gliders on the first drop."
Three jaws drop - Len Evan's, mine and the FE's. Until that comment, although we'd both known him well, neither the FE nor I had known anything about what the guy has done in the war.
After completing his 30 missions with Bomber Command, the same bloke went on to comlete a tour with 100 Group, the ones who carried the spooks who (usually) parachuted to support the French Resistance. I later pumped him for as much as he'd share with me and he told me how he'd LANDED a Stirling in an farmer's field behind German lines during the short-lived Resistance takeover of the Massif in southern France in the months immediately after D Day.
I often wondered how, after what they'd seen and done as very young men, these blokes weren't bored to snores tooling an airliner between Sydney and Melbourne four or five days a week. However, when I was looking at what seemed to be a very bleak future in late 1989 and early 1990, one of the factors that stopped me even considering stepping over into what I saw then as the enemy trenchs was the way I thought men like the one I have mentioned here would regard me if I did.
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My initial thought on seeing this thread appear was "this will last 5 minutes tops".
Well done to all for keeping it open.
I for one was not flying in 89 and have not heard the various perspectives on the dispute before.
I think that it is important story to be told to a new generation.
cheers
Well done to all for keeping it open.
I for one was not flying in 89 and have not heard the various perspectives on the dispute before.
I think that it is important story to be told to a new generation.
cheers
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fugitive
There is no use crying over spilt milk.As my wife used to say,get on with life.The worst part was not that as a person you couldn`t deal with the situation,it was what they were doing targetting families.
The worst time in my life was when heading overseas to a great job,but having to say goodbye to two young kids.
These were the people that ran Ansett.
For those people that complain about VG,QF,etc today,all I can say is that some of us tried to maintain a lifestyle that had been fought for by the likes of Dick Holt and his mates.
Blame the opportunists for your current industry job situation, at least some of us tried.
The worst time in my life was when heading overseas to a great job,but having to say goodbye to two young kids.
These were the people that ran Ansett.
For those people that complain about VG,QF,etc today,all I can say is that some of us tried to maintain a lifestyle that had been fought for by the likes of Dick Holt and his mates.
Blame the opportunists for your current industry job situation, at least some of us tried.
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Wiley, that was not PK was it. If it was the same bloke, he came to work one day with the biggest piece of flak that had come thru the flight deck floor, and nealy took out the family jewels. He uses it now to keep the lid on the chaff bin. (He keeps a couple of horses) He flew 38 sorties in a lanc. To keep in the current discussion the same bloke worked like a dog to get the pilots back to work, as he could see what was coming.
The Reverend
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Well so much for Work Choices, born in the Hawke Labor Government, aborted by Krudd and Gillard.
Pity most of the young who voted in Labor are not aware of the 89 history which is repeating itself in the QA LAME dispute.
Pity most of the young who voted in Labor are not aware of the 89 history which is repeating itself in the QA LAME dispute.
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Those of us who where part of 89 will never forget and I will never forgive as well.
I have got on with life and continue in my chosen career.
Much has been said and participants try to justify their action, but for all of those reading this, just think of the following:
1. In the middle of 1991 well after the memorable 1st party at Frankfurt, 23 Ozzies where offered permanent jobs with Swissair. 40 had started as contract pilots. Something like 11 accepted and Swissair went away to finalise their employment. The company came back to them 2 weeks later and said they could not be employed as all their names where on Interpol as Political Dissidents, a hanging offense in most countries around the world. The Hawke labour government had put all our names on interpol as political dissidents shortly after we all resigned. We where working and flying in many countries around the world during this time.
2. On December 20th 1991 Compass mk1 stopped flying. The aircraft where ceased and the airline grounded. Much as been said of this as well and what does it have to do with 89? Well, the night the aircraft where ceased, it was done by TNT security guards by the authority of the Hawke Labour Government for unpaid Navigation charges. December 20th 1991 was also the date that Paul Keating rolled Hawke and took over the Lodge. This was Hawkes last act as PM to carry out the fat mans wishes.
On another note, the "List" exists and as stated before, all that are on it are only there by their own actions. In my dealings with anyone in the industry I do not know in a position of power, (CASA) I check the list. I do this so I know what I am dealing with, information is knowledge. You would be surprised who is turning up at CASA and how many of them!
Also, get a hold of "Australian Aviation" from 1980, the one where they interviewed Ables just after his take over of Ansett. I only came across this after the dispute in an Aeroclub. Too bad we did not read it before 89. Albes outlines his plans for the airline and a time line for it all to happen and it did, exactly as he predicted 9 years earlier with uncanny accuracy.
Sui Generis
PS. Hawke said where where nothing but Glorified Bus Drivers. Well in one sense he was correct. In the middle of 1990, a number of us where working in a small country in Europe. Just after we arrived, the pilots told us they where going to have a dispute with the management. We all thought "oh no not again", we should go along a tell them how not to do it. The interesting thing was the pilots where all members of the countries Bus Drivers Union. We had a laugh over that one, Hawke was right all along!
I have got on with life and continue in my chosen career.
Much has been said and participants try to justify their action, but for all of those reading this, just think of the following:
1. In the middle of 1991 well after the memorable 1st party at Frankfurt, 23 Ozzies where offered permanent jobs with Swissair. 40 had started as contract pilots. Something like 11 accepted and Swissair went away to finalise their employment. The company came back to them 2 weeks later and said they could not be employed as all their names where on Interpol as Political Dissidents, a hanging offense in most countries around the world. The Hawke labour government had put all our names on interpol as political dissidents shortly after we all resigned. We where working and flying in many countries around the world during this time.
2. On December 20th 1991 Compass mk1 stopped flying. The aircraft where ceased and the airline grounded. Much as been said of this as well and what does it have to do with 89? Well, the night the aircraft where ceased, it was done by TNT security guards by the authority of the Hawke Labour Government for unpaid Navigation charges. December 20th 1991 was also the date that Paul Keating rolled Hawke and took over the Lodge. This was Hawkes last act as PM to carry out the fat mans wishes.
On another note, the "List" exists and as stated before, all that are on it are only there by their own actions. In my dealings with anyone in the industry I do not know in a position of power, (CASA) I check the list. I do this so I know what I am dealing with, information is knowledge. You would be surprised who is turning up at CASA and how many of them!
Also, get a hold of "Australian Aviation" from 1980, the one where they interviewed Ables just after his take over of Ansett. I only came across this after the dispute in an Aeroclub. Too bad we did not read it before 89. Albes outlines his plans for the airline and a time line for it all to happen and it did, exactly as he predicted 9 years earlier with uncanny accuracy.
Sui Generis
PS. Hawke said where where nothing but Glorified Bus Drivers. Well in one sense he was correct. In the middle of 1990, a number of us where working in a small country in Europe. Just after we arrived, the pilots told us they where going to have a dispute with the management. We all thought "oh no not again", we should go along a tell them how not to do it. The interesting thing was the pilots where all members of the countries Bus Drivers Union. We had a laugh over that one, Hawke was right all along!
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2. On December 20th 1991 Compass mk1 stopped flying. The aircraft where ceased and the airline grounded. Much as been said of this as well and what does it have to do with 89? Well, the night the aircraft where ceased, it was done by TNT security guards by the authority of the Hawke Labour Government for unpaid Navigation charges. December 20th 1991 was also the date that Paul Keating rolled Hawke and took over the Lodge. This was Hawkes last act as PM to carry out the fat mans wishes.
Prior to the start up of what is called Compass 2 (Southern Cross), I was at McDonnell Douglas starting an MD 80 Course, as were many "dispute Pilots". On the second day of our course the Instructor was called out of the class, when he returned he asked us who on Earth was this *&^%$#@ Abeles? We told him, and he told us he had just been advised by McDonnell Douglas Management that Abeles had threatened them HE would never allow Ansett ot TNT to purchase another Aircraft from them IF they allowed us to have these new MD 80s. He said they had reluctantly AGREED. However they arranged for us to lease older MD 80s from SAS to get around Abeles, which was okay, except we ended up with very old MD 80s instead of brand new ones.
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Fugitive
Sadly,twodogsflying only knows part of the truth.I was involved in both the Ansett & Compass 1 demises.
What happened of course was beyond belief,so how could the ordinary joe blow believe us.It is only believable because we went thru it.
I wont go back to the Ansett drama as that has been flogged to death,but the Compass 1 drama was worse.What they did was illegal,but of course Hawke was in power and he was the one that ordered Compass to be grounded on the Friday.He knew there was a leadership spill on the Monday and Keating had the numbers.It was his last act on behalf of his mate Ables.
Anyone who doubts this,go back and read the front pages of the The Australian and Courier Mail around that period.
It outlined how they grounded Compass and it was planned twelve months earlier.
It was called Operation SEWN UP,that being for South East West and North.Brian Grey called it operation stiched up.
Dont believe me,go back to the archives and read it for yourself.
Murdoch canned it immediately.
Compass 2 never got off the ground because the liquidators made sure that it went to people who they knew were dodgy.
The Nauru Govt wanted to buy the company as did Garuda but were told no.Ferrier Hodgson got most of the Govt contracts so they wouldn`t have a bar of a ressurected and financially secure Compass 2.
As they say,read the history,it really is enlightening.
What happened of course was beyond belief,so how could the ordinary joe blow believe us.It is only believable because we went thru it.
I wont go back to the Ansett drama as that has been flogged to death,but the Compass 1 drama was worse.What they did was illegal,but of course Hawke was in power and he was the one that ordered Compass to be grounded on the Friday.He knew there was a leadership spill on the Monday and Keating had the numbers.It was his last act on behalf of his mate Ables.
Anyone who doubts this,go back and read the front pages of the The Australian and Courier Mail around that period.
It outlined how they grounded Compass and it was planned twelve months earlier.
It was called Operation SEWN UP,that being for South East West and North.Brian Grey called it operation stiched up.
Dont believe me,go back to the archives and read it for yourself.
Murdoch canned it immediately.
Compass 2 never got off the ground because the liquidators made sure that it went to people who they knew were dodgy.
The Nauru Govt wanted to buy the company as did Garuda but were told no.Ferrier Hodgson got most of the Govt contracts so they wouldn`t have a bar of a ressurected and financially secure Compass 2.
As they say,read the history,it really is enlightening.
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That was the final nail in the coffin of Compass 1 yes, but there were a lot of earlier things done by Hawke for Abeles prior to that.
Some could be considered just legitimate business tactics (with a big stretch), but others were just ridiculous.
He tried to get the fuel companies not to supply us with fuel, luckily they said they would supply anyone that needed it and could pay for it.
He ordered CASA Inspectors several times to check all the aircraft documentation just as we were about to pushback thus delaying the flights, when I queried it with the Inspectors they said they always do it with ALL the Operators, until I said I was with Ansett for over 28 years and it was not done once, they then left embarassed. They tried to ground us altogether one day because our Ground Ops Manual on the line was not up to date, when I checked with Compass Technical it turned out it was THEIR (CASA) copy that was wrong.
Just prior to the end, Air New Zealand were in talks to save Compass, until Hawke told them not to waste their time and money because he was about to introduce "open skies", so Air NZ backed down, but then after Compass 1 and Hawke were gone, Keating would not introduce it.
Some could be considered just legitimate business tactics (with a big stretch), but others were just ridiculous.
He tried to get the fuel companies not to supply us with fuel, luckily they said they would supply anyone that needed it and could pay for it.
He ordered CASA Inspectors several times to check all the aircraft documentation just as we were about to pushback thus delaying the flights, when I queried it with the Inspectors they said they always do it with ALL the Operators, until I said I was with Ansett for over 28 years and it was not done once, they then left embarassed. They tried to ground us altogether one day because our Ground Ops Manual on the line was not up to date, when I checked with Compass Technical it turned out it was THEIR (CASA) copy that was wrong.
Just prior to the end, Air New Zealand were in talks to save Compass, until Hawke told them not to waste their time and money because he was about to introduce "open skies", so Air NZ backed down, but then after Compass 1 and Hawke were gone, Keating would not introduce it.