1989- Pilots dispute 19 years on
Yes and although that may have been Hawke's last act for Abeles, it was NOT sadly Abeles last underhanded act
To borrow a recent post from Konehead in another thread about QF's senior management.....
What if your company CEO is a psychopath? What hope for us then?
Interesting segment on ABC science program "Catalyst" regarding corporate psychopaths.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stori...1.htm#interact
To cut a long story short, these types do some harm to a company by driving "good" staff away. A consultancy group is employed by companies to seek out the corporate psychopaths in their ranks to try to find the cause of the staff exodus. Apparently corporate psychopaths "kiss up and kick down" the chain of command. Sound familiar?
Interesting segment on ABC science program "Catalyst" regarding corporate psychopaths.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stori...1.htm#interact
To cut a long story short, these types do some harm to a company by driving "good" staff away. A consultancy group is employed by companies to seek out the corporate psychopaths in their ranks to try to find the cause of the staff exodus. Apparently corporate psychopaths "kiss up and kick down" the chain of command. Sound familiar?
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Ive done very well - have had more bonking and made
more bloodey money in 19 years than Id ever hoped to
have made in Oz in a lifetime. So have many others.
Still hate scabs, Hawke, and the rotting Fat Man. Who doesnt?
The current Oz airline industry is a monument to the ALP
and its ratbag hero of the past, not to mention the
ignorant unwashed masses who just watched and let it all
happen. The present ratbag will finish off the last bastion
of any residual form of standard and pride (the White Rat)
alltogether.
Wouldnt mind a 20th get-together somewhere in Asia
Pacific.
PS Sui generis KM!
more bloodey money in 19 years than Id ever hoped to
have made in Oz in a lifetime. So have many others.
Still hate scabs, Hawke, and the rotting Fat Man. Who doesnt?
The current Oz airline industry is a monument to the ALP
and its ratbag hero of the past, not to mention the
ignorant unwashed masses who just watched and let it all
happen. The present ratbag will finish off the last bastion
of any residual form of standard and pride (the White Rat)
alltogether.
Wouldnt mind a 20th get-together somewhere in Asia
Pacific.
PS Sui generis KM!
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Another victim of Abeles was a great little Airline called East West, I happened to be in CBR the day it was announced that Abeles had purchased it. I was getting a ride on the jump seat of a East West Friendly Fockership back to SYD, and her young crew were exited at the prospect of getting a chance to being able to get into AN the parent company. Me, I just had an uneasy feeling that it was going to go bellyup, and four months later it did. Like Dixon, staff and their futures meant little to the Fat Man, and I often wondered what happened to that crew. I can understand some of the postings that have been recorded, are "get over it" "move on" and most of us did, I can also understand the impatience of young pilots with "not the strike again" but most of you have seen that it still sometimes exists on todays flight decks, the sudden quiet, when giving a another pilot a lift on the jumpseat to work, all of a sudden there is a distinct feeling of anamosity that was not there before, perhaps a refusal to acknowledge another pilot, just some subtle feeling that won't go away, and all of a sudden it dawns that a so called scab, has entered the domain. Regardless of what you believe, the reality is that this strike has become part of Australia's History, never before has a strike had such a terrible affect, most strikes went on for a couple of weeks, (and it was normal for the Brewerys and Australia Post to go out every Christmas) but this one became The Mother Of All Strikes, and compares only with the one in about 1943 when the Wharfies refused to load ships full of supplies for Australian Troops serving in the Pacific, unless they got paid x amount of dollers. You cannot get much lower than that. Yes, for you young blokes its boring, boring, boring but when a strike becomes a life changing event, not just a strike, for the pilots, their families, for all the other people that were sadly involved, the sucides, the marriage breakups, the destruction of familes, the parting of friends, it affects the whole country, and thats probably why we need to rabbit on about it sometimes, glad its over, glad we survived, sorry it ever happened, but we cannot ignore it and hope it will go away, it won't, and when the last one of us is doing his last circuit, it will go into Australian folklore as "The Pilots Strike of 89" forever in the history of Industrial Australia, and it will paint the Pilots as the bastards, and Hawke and his fat mate as the victims. Such is the way of the world. 
I understand there is a lunch planned by some ex AN staffers at the Recreation Hotel (170 Queens Parade) in North Fitzroy (Melbourne) at 1300Lt on Fri 15 August.
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Now I guess I comprehend the statements of the uninvolved to 'get over it' so perhaps a user-friendly way to test your residual bitterness might be to take the following pshycological test (kindly borrowed from Jetblast):
This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand psychologically.
The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision, a bit like 1989.
Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.
Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.
:THE SITUATION
You are in Australia, Canberra to be specific.
There is chaos all around you caused by a cyclone with severe flooding.
This is a flood of biblical proportions.
You are a photo-journalist working for a major newspaper (not a Murdoch one), and you're caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless.
You're trying to shoot career-making photos.
There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing into the water.
Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.
THE TEST:
Suddenly, you see a man in the water.
He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris.
You move closer... Somehow, the man looks familiar...
You suddenly realize who it is... It's Bob Hawke! You notice that the raging waters are about to take him under forever. You have two options:
You can save the life of RJL Hawke or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the country's once most powerful men!
THE QUESTION:
Here's the question, and please give an honest answer...
Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand psychologically.
The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision, a bit like 1989.
Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.
Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.
:THE SITUATION
You are in Australia, Canberra to be specific.
There is chaos all around you caused by a cyclone with severe flooding.
This is a flood of biblical proportions.
You are a photo-journalist working for a major newspaper (not a Murdoch one), and you're caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless.
You're trying to shoot career-making photos.
There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing into the water.
Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.
THE TEST:
Suddenly, you see a man in the water.
He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris.
You move closer... Somehow, the man looks familiar...
You suddenly realize who it is... It's Bob Hawke! You notice that the raging waters are about to take him under forever. You have two options:
You can save the life of RJL Hawke or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the country's once most powerful men!
THE QUESTION:
Here's the question, and please give an honest answer...
Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
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Gentlemen (and Ladies?) you passion perplexes me.
Your opponents were known quantities before the event.
Ables had solved industrial problem one way or another, even with US longshoremen.
Hawke always go his way at the ACTU and in government. And he was passionate about "the accord"
Tell me, if you or I picked a fight with Mike Tyson, who should be surprised at the inevitable outcome?
Your opponents were known quantities before the event.
Ables had solved industrial problem one way or another, even with US longshoremen.
Hawke always go his way at the ACTU and in government. And he was passionate about "the accord"
Tell me, if you or I picked a fight with Mike Tyson, who should be surprised at the inevitable outcome?
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There is one particular "Hero" who I despise the most.
On the night we all resigned at the AFAP building in Melbourne, the MBF set up a table so our super could be rolled over for those who had super, not everyone got payouts.
Anyway, this particular persons wife also set up a table to roll over super into her company, she had just started a business selling life insurance and super. A number of pilots did give their super to her as they thought they where helping an F/O (the husband) out by doing so. Over the next few months pilots kept giving her their money and once her commissions hit about $1M, said husband signed a contract and went back to work.
When the first anniversary party came around and about 200 people turned up to the pub at Frankfurt Airport, there where the usual discussions on where we ended up etc, but the main topic was did we do the right thing by not becoming a "Hero"? One of my close friends summed it up this way, he said:
"I look around here today and all the pilots here that I know, I would class as my friends. When I look at the "heroes", none of them that I personnel know would I class as a friend, so I am happy with my choice."
That one statement summed up the whole dispute!
On the night we all resigned at the AFAP building in Melbourne, the MBF set up a table so our super could be rolled over for those who had super, not everyone got payouts.
Anyway, this particular persons wife also set up a table to roll over super into her company, she had just started a business selling life insurance and super. A number of pilots did give their super to her as they thought they where helping an F/O (the husband) out by doing so. Over the next few months pilots kept giving her their money and once her commissions hit about $1M, said husband signed a contract and went back to work.
When the first anniversary party came around and about 200 people turned up to the pub at Frankfurt Airport, there where the usual discussions on where we ended up etc, but the main topic was did we do the right thing by not becoming a "Hero"? One of my close friends summed it up this way, he said:
"I look around here today and all the pilots here that I know, I would class as my friends. When I look at the "heroes", none of them that I personnel know would I class as a friend, so I am happy with my choice."
That one statement summed up the whole dispute!
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"I look around here today and all the pilots here that I know, I would class as my friends. When I look at the "heroes", none of them that I personnel know would I class as a friend, so I am happy with my choice."
Start with text book chapters on "peer groups" and "causation"
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milkybarkid, sneer if you will, but with only one exception who immediately comes to mind, (BW, now unfortunatly dead - of natural causes), there was no one among those who went back who - before the dispute (note my emphasis) - I considered as someone I respected.
Almost to a man, they were either the 'wide boys' (Captain America, whose log book showed he gained 1200 hours during his 12 months in PNG without ever working full time for any local airline, immediately comes to mind), or the 'weak sisters', quite a few of whom would not still have been working for the airlines had not the Federation (mistakenly, I believe, if only in hindsight) fought to keep them in their jobs in the years preceeding the Dispute.
The weak sisters, who were among the first to return, were at least realists - they knew they'd never survive 'out there' in the big bad world. The likes of Captain America were regarded with contempt by the majority of their colleagues long before they gained their hero's badge.
Almost to a man, they were either the 'wide boys' (Captain America, whose log book showed he gained 1200 hours during his 12 months in PNG without ever working full time for any local airline, immediately comes to mind), or the 'weak sisters', quite a few of whom would not still have been working for the airlines had not the Federation (mistakenly, I believe, if only in hindsight) fought to keep them in their jobs in the years preceeding the Dispute.
The weak sisters, who were among the first to return, were at least realists - they knew they'd never survive 'out there' in the big bad world. The likes of Captain America were regarded with contempt by the majority of their colleagues long before they gained their hero's badge.
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I was a young fella when the whole thing went down so my opinion and understanding is not that relevant. What I have seen though is how deep and traumatic the whole event was to so many people. I have a memory of sitting in a rural pub with two pilots who were sons of pilots involved in the dispute, their respective fathers were on different sides. As the beer flowed the conversations got more heated and fisticuffs were a possibility.
One fella spoke of late night phone calls calling his dad a range of offensive names and abusing him as a 14 year old for his dads actions. He spoke of having a last name that now won't get him a job in certain places because of who his dad was and what his dad did. He was proud of his father as every son should try to be but he was also uneasy that his dad was so hated for actions he maybe didn't get.
The other fella spoke of having no money for a fair period of time when he was growing up. He spoke of a continual tension between his parents that ended up with is dad leaving for good and him only seeing him 4 times a year. This affected him in so many ways and it was very obvious from the way he was he could have done with his dad about at that important time of his life.
The two blokes ended up being friends after a couple of those heated drunk evenings. It just touched me that this dispute affected so many lives for so long. I don't know what the lessons are coz I wasn't there and I think those lessons were too hard to understand unless you were part of it. I think Capt Sherm was about as close as I've heard. The only input I have as a dumb observer is safe skies to all who were involved, except maybe one person who's got the silver hair.
One fella spoke of late night phone calls calling his dad a range of offensive names and abusing him as a 14 year old for his dads actions. He spoke of having a last name that now won't get him a job in certain places because of who his dad was and what his dad did. He was proud of his father as every son should try to be but he was also uneasy that his dad was so hated for actions he maybe didn't get.
The other fella spoke of having no money for a fair period of time when he was growing up. He spoke of a continual tension between his parents that ended up with is dad leaving for good and him only seeing him 4 times a year. This affected him in so many ways and it was very obvious from the way he was he could have done with his dad about at that important time of his life.
The two blokes ended up being friends after a couple of those heated drunk evenings. It just touched me that this dispute affected so many lives for so long. I don't know what the lessons are coz I wasn't there and I think those lessons were too hard to understand unless you were part of it. I think Capt Sherm was about as close as I've heard. The only input I have as a dumb observer is safe skies to all who were involved, except maybe one person who's got the silver hair.
Last edited by Whiskey Oscar Golf; 13th Jun 2008 at 11:31. Reason: punctation
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Like a few previous posters, I am thankful that this thread has managed to get so far without degenerating into personal abuse and thereby sending the thread into oblivion.
In 89 I had held a CPL for three years, had just gained a class 1 Instrument rating as it was at the time, and had been promised a full time job flying night freight IFR.
Unfortunately, I did'nt get the job! An Ansett 727F/O 'resignee' scored the position. I was as mad as hell at the time, to the point of letting my AFAP membership lapse and screaming abuse at the AFAP girl at 'the other end of the phone' at the time when she offered to allow me to pay my unemployed subs in installments. Whoever you were Ma'am, I humbly apologise!
In the meantime, I have since built a bridge, got over it and moved on! I enjoyed greatly where my career took me (to PNG, albeit for a far too short period when I think of it!) and the small bits of what I have had since.
To sum up I offer the following quote from the previous poster,Whiskey Oscar Golf.
Amen to that!!! With special note to the last part!
without degenerating into personal abuse and thereby sending the thread into oblivion.In 89 I had held a CPL for three years, had just gained a class 1 Instrument rating as it was at the time, and had been promised a full time job flying night freight IFR.
Unfortunately, I did'nt get the job! An Ansett 727F/O 'resignee' scored the position. I was as mad as hell at the time, to the point of letting my AFAP membership lapse and screaming abuse at the AFAP girl at 'the other end of the phone' at the time when she offered to allow me to pay my unemployed subs in installments. Whoever you were Ma'am, I humbly apologise!
In the meantime, I have since built a bridge, got over it and moved on! I enjoyed greatly where my career took me (to PNG, albeit for a far too short period when I think of it!) and the small bits of what I have had since.
To sum up I offer the following quote from the previous poster,Whiskey Oscar Golf.
The only input I have as a dumb observer is safe skies to all who were involved, except maybe one person who's got the silver hair.
teresa green said:
Nail on the head again TG. Your post and Captain Sherm's before are among the best summations of the personal side of 89 yet advanced. Here we are, 162 posts in twelve days, and mostly refreshingly calm, reasoned, with telling anecdotal stuff, and only a little ineffectual spray from the Hipshots potting away with their cork rifles.
(I apologise TG for interfering with the above quote to the extent of adding "dispute" to "strike")
Regardless of what you believe, the reality is that this dispute has become part of Australia's history. Never before has a strike (or industrial dispute . . ed.) had such a terrible affect. Most strikes went on for a couple of weeks, (and it was normal for the Breweries and Australia Post to go out every Christmas), but this one became The Mother Of All Strikes, and compares only with the one in about 1943 when the Wharfies refused to load ships full of supplies for Australian Troops serving in the Pacific, unless they got paid 'x' amount of dollers. You cannot get much lower than that.
Yes, for you young blokes its boring, boring, boring but when a dispute of this magnitude becomes a life changing event, not just a strike, for the pilots, their families, for all the other people that were sadly involved, the suicides, the marriage breakups, the destruction of families, the parting of friends, it affects the whole country, and that's probably why we need to rabbit on about it sometimes.
Yes, for you young blokes its boring, boring, boring but when a dispute of this magnitude becomes a life changing event, not just a strike, for the pilots, their families, for all the other people that were sadly involved, the suicides, the marriage breakups, the destruction of families, the parting of friends, it affects the whole country, and that's probably why we need to rabbit on about it sometimes.
(I apologise TG for interfering with the above quote to the extent of adding "dispute" to "strike")
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Ahh, 'Captain America', a.k.a. 'FIGJAM' ("**** I'm Good, Just Ask Me"). I think there'd be quite a few who remember that individual very well indeed for his history pre-dispute.
I have to agree that looking at the pre-dispute pedigrees of those who got all heroic and those who didn't, there weren't too many among the heroes who most fathers would have been pleased to have their daughter bring home with stars in her eyes. (Just an admittedly not unbaised opionion.)
Back to safer ground, I once had a copy of "Operation Sewn Up", the multi-page, military-style plan to wind up Compass 1 in the week before Christmas. Surely there is someone out there who still has a copy who could post it here for the education of those who haven't seen it. Some might find it incredible that a government agency attempting to recover unpaid fees would close down the debtor in the week before Christmas, when that debtor would rake in much if not more than was owed. Some cynics, particularly after reading the 'Operation Sewn Up' document, might be forgiven for thinking there was another agenda altogether in play in closing down Compass 1 at that particular time. Surely not.
I also seem to recall that the man entrusted to carry out 'Operation Sewn Up' remained (and possibly still remains) a high profile figure in Australian Aviation for some years after that event, whose 'unbaised' opionion was often sought by the media on all topics regarding avaition.
I have to agree that looking at the pre-dispute pedigrees of those who got all heroic and those who didn't, there weren't too many among the heroes who most fathers would have been pleased to have their daughter bring home with stars in her eyes. (Just an admittedly not unbaised opionion.)
Back to safer ground, I once had a copy of "Operation Sewn Up", the multi-page, military-style plan to wind up Compass 1 in the week before Christmas. Surely there is someone out there who still has a copy who could post it here for the education of those who haven't seen it. Some might find it incredible that a government agency attempting to recover unpaid fees would close down the debtor in the week before Christmas, when that debtor would rake in much if not more than was owed. Some cynics, particularly after reading the 'Operation Sewn Up' document, might be forgiven for thinking there was another agenda altogether in play in closing down Compass 1 at that particular time. Surely not.
I also seem to recall that the man entrusted to carry out 'Operation Sewn Up' remained (and possibly still remains) a high profile figure in Australian Aviation for some years after that event, whose 'unbaised' opionion was often sought by the media on all topics regarding avaition.
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My Account.....
Around my 7th birthday, my dad who worked for TAA, said to me and my two sisters that he had lost his job because of a dispute. I didn't really know what that ment and for a few months after that i remember going to these random places, waiting around in the AFAP office, going to the airport and protesting and clicking these little metal things at people. It was quite hectic but dad said everything was going ok, but it wasn't. A few months later he told me that he's not allowed to work in Australia anymore and now had to move to a country called Saudi Arabia. He said he had to start a new job, and it will be the best thing to do for us kids and mum. A few weeks later he was gone. After he left we saw him about 5 times a year after spending 2 days travelling to get there. Mum, the girls and I tried living there but it was no place for women so we moved back home leaving our dad without a family again. I remember when the times got tough, him crying on the phone as he said how much he missed us and how he wished he was back at home. I also remember mum yelling on the phone about him not being around and having to raise 3 kids by herself. As the years went by without having him around, the pressure got too great for the marriage and they separated. A year later his father died suddenly while he was still in the sand pit, he never really got the chance to say a proper goodbye.
It has been really hard to grow up without him and I have suffered in more ways than one as a result. In a way I wish he had s*****d so we could have him around and be a normal family. But I am so proud of my dad and all the blokes like him who stuck by their guns and done what they thought was right.
So I guess he/we have had it though, but he is the happiest and nicest bloke you will ever meet, when I talk about 89 he says it’s all in the past and not too worry about it. But he will joke and laugh about how much he hates hawkey and the fat man. He still lives overseas but a little closer and is home a fair bit these days which is good.
As for me I have followed in dad's footsteps and took up flying, silly I know after all he has gone through, but because I idolised the old man so much and after a trip to Oshkosh when I was 12, I knew I had to fly regardless. And Like dad I have had to move away from family and friends in pursuit of buildhing hours and my flying career, much to the despair of my girlfriend. I guess we never learn, but flying does that to you. I just hope I never have to make a decision that all you 89ers had to make, but i think its inevitable. At least mine will be an educated one.
Around my 7th birthday, my dad who worked for TAA, said to me and my two sisters that he had lost his job because of a dispute. I didn't really know what that ment and for a few months after that i remember going to these random places, waiting around in the AFAP office, going to the airport and protesting and clicking these little metal things at people. It was quite hectic but dad said everything was going ok, but it wasn't. A few months later he told me that he's not allowed to work in Australia anymore and now had to move to a country called Saudi Arabia. He said he had to start a new job, and it will be the best thing to do for us kids and mum. A few weeks later he was gone. After he left we saw him about 5 times a year after spending 2 days travelling to get there. Mum, the girls and I tried living there but it was no place for women so we moved back home leaving our dad without a family again. I remember when the times got tough, him crying on the phone as he said how much he missed us and how he wished he was back at home. I also remember mum yelling on the phone about him not being around and having to raise 3 kids by herself. As the years went by without having him around, the pressure got too great for the marriage and they separated. A year later his father died suddenly while he was still in the sand pit, he never really got the chance to say a proper goodbye.
It has been really hard to grow up without him and I have suffered in more ways than one as a result. In a way I wish he had s*****d so we could have him around and be a normal family. But I am so proud of my dad and all the blokes like him who stuck by their guns and done what they thought was right.
So I guess he/we have had it though, but he is the happiest and nicest bloke you will ever meet, when I talk about 89 he says it’s all in the past and not too worry about it. But he will joke and laugh about how much he hates hawkey and the fat man. He still lives overseas but a little closer and is home a fair bit these days which is good.
As for me I have followed in dad's footsteps and took up flying, silly I know after all he has gone through, but because I idolised the old man so much and after a trip to Oshkosh when I was 12, I knew I had to fly regardless. And Like dad I have had to move away from family and friends in pursuit of buildhing hours and my flying career, much to the despair of my girlfriend. I guess we never learn, but flying does that to you. I just hope I never have to make a decision that all you 89ers had to make, but i think its inevitable. At least mine will be an educated one.
spell check is my friend