1989- Pilots dispute 19 years on
Hoof man...............I was only 23 at the time and my career was only just kicking off mate. I lost more than you, I tasted the airline career in Australia I had dreamed of for 20 years and then it was GONE in a puff of dust.
My fellow senior Pilot's may have been wrong and so might the union have been, BUT I chose to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in solidarity as a UNION. I didn't put my own selfish needs above others.
Now I can live with my decision BUT if all you've got to complain about is a few Airline drivers taking your GA job then.................
Remember a LOT of GA drivers scabbed into MY JOB too mate. It was NOT a one way street by any stretch of the imagination.
( GA drivers that had previously been REJECTED by AN TN EW and Ipec, one such individul springs to mind )
So back to you old wise one.............
My fellow senior Pilot's may have been wrong and so might the union have been, BUT I chose to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in solidarity as a UNION. I didn't put my own selfish needs above others.
Now I can live with my decision BUT if all you've got to complain about is a few Airline drivers taking your GA job then.................
Remember a LOT of GA drivers scabbed into MY JOB too mate. It was NOT a one way street by any stretch of the imagination.
( GA drivers that had previously been REJECTED by AN TN EW and Ipec, one such individul springs to mind )
So back to you old wise one.............
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Knumb Knuts, you are right Capt. Holt had retired but that did not stop many of us ringing him and asking for help in any form. But he had the total S$#ts about the whole thing, no blokes worked harder then Holt and Brooksbank for the pilots, and what we gained. I really appreciated these blokes because at the time I was flogging a Trotter around Tassie and earning nuts, in fact the bloke next door who fixed power lines made a lot more than me. So you just imagine what the two of them thought. I had dinner in BNE with Brooksbank last year and it is still unprintable, to describe how he feels.
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Confusing!!!!!
Let me see.....31 intelligent and well constructed replies in the Thread directly above this (at the time of writing, Senate Inquiry Into CASA) and 68 (at the time of writing this) basically nonsensical replies rehashing what has been gone over on this site so many times before, where's the logic and what does it say for the current and future state of the industry, particularly from the sector that is supposedly indicative of the industry?????
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You guys cannot have it both ways. 
Earlier on this thread I was ridiculed for saying there even was a pilot's strike.
Apparently you all resigned.
Now IF you all resigned, and did NOT go on strike, the people that replaced you are NOT scabs and you should not call them that, unless you really were on strike.
Earlier on this thread I was ridiculed for saying there even was a pilot's strike.
Apparently you all resigned.
Now IF you all resigned, and did NOT go on strike, the people that replaced you are NOT scabs and you should not call them that, unless you really were on strike.
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All of us, to some degree, suffer from selective amnesia, particularly over events as traumatic as 1989. (We, on the ‘non heroic’ side, who went down ‘with our honour intact’ [if precious little else] are no exception. We, and our leadership, took some very poor legal advice, made some very poor decisions on the strength of it and misread the situation dreadfully on more than one occasion, particularly in not understanding how far the other side, both airline management and government, [both of which were run by the same man – and I don’t mean the elected one] – were willing to go to win.) One example is the gentleman who is still expressing outrage about the greedy pilots destroying his relative’s motel business, something I can understand completely. When emotions that deep are involved, no one wants to listen to reasoned argument that puts your deeply held convictions into doubt.
That ‘The Dispute’ would have had a huge effect on the bottom line any business relying heavily on air transport (like tourism) is indisputable. However, a very high proportion of Australian new start businesses fail in the first 12 months – the figure used to be 85%, and I’ve no reason to believe it would have been any different in 1989.
- Would the Dispute have been the final nail for some which were struggling? Undoubtedly.
- Would some – perhaps quite a few – that did fail that year have soldiered on, perhaps even prospered without the Dispute? Again, undoubtedly.
HOWEVER, here’s where the selective amnesia kicks in. The Australian tourist industry, particularly in Northern Queensland, was already in serious trouble in 1989, long before the Dispute occurred. I know Cairns hotels were operating at an average of 15% occupancy rates – and that was before the Dispute. Many hopefuls had bought up big (and borrowed big) hoping to cash in on the expected huge inflow of foreign tourists that Australian Tourist Commission advertising campaigns in Europe, Asia and particularly America had targeted in the late 80s. (Many readers here will be too young to recall Paul Hogan’s “Throw another shrimp on the barbie” campaign, but huge amounts of Australian taxpayers’ money was spent on it and similar television advertising overseas.)
Did the ad. campaigns work, i.e., did the foreign tourists come in large numbers? Yes, they did. However, the vast majority were young backpackers, and not the high end, high-spending foreign tourists who would want to stay in four and five star resorts and hotels, which is the end of the market the vast majority of people in the Queensland tourist industry had targeted. Even ‘Mum and Dad’ two and three star motel operators missed out on much of the tourist dollar, because the backpackers would sleep on the beach rather than pay what most considered quite steep prices being asked by these establishments in Queensland at the time.
It might not be palatable for ‘nomorecatering’ and others to read it, but the Dispute (which translates for many, even after all these years on, into “those greedy pilots”), became the all-encompassing and only reason for their business’ failure for many in the tourist industry back then. As mentioned above, many were already in deep trouble well beforehand and many had gone into business seeking a market that did not exist.
That ‘The Dispute’ would have had a huge effect on the bottom line any business relying heavily on air transport (like tourism) is indisputable. However, a very high proportion of Australian new start businesses fail in the first 12 months – the figure used to be 85%, and I’ve no reason to believe it would have been any different in 1989.
- Would the Dispute have been the final nail for some which were struggling? Undoubtedly.
- Would some – perhaps quite a few – that did fail that year have soldiered on, perhaps even prospered without the Dispute? Again, undoubtedly.
HOWEVER, here’s where the selective amnesia kicks in. The Australian tourist industry, particularly in Northern Queensland, was already in serious trouble in 1989, long before the Dispute occurred. I know Cairns hotels were operating at an average of 15% occupancy rates – and that was before the Dispute. Many hopefuls had bought up big (and borrowed big) hoping to cash in on the expected huge inflow of foreign tourists that Australian Tourist Commission advertising campaigns in Europe, Asia and particularly America had targeted in the late 80s. (Many readers here will be too young to recall Paul Hogan’s “Throw another shrimp on the barbie” campaign, but huge amounts of Australian taxpayers’ money was spent on it and similar television advertising overseas.)
Did the ad. campaigns work, i.e., did the foreign tourists come in large numbers? Yes, they did. However, the vast majority were young backpackers, and not the high end, high-spending foreign tourists who would want to stay in four and five star resorts and hotels, which is the end of the market the vast majority of people in the Queensland tourist industry had targeted. Even ‘Mum and Dad’ two and three star motel operators missed out on much of the tourist dollar, because the backpackers would sleep on the beach rather than pay what most considered quite steep prices being asked by these establishments in Queensland at the time.
It might not be palatable for ‘nomorecatering’ and others to read it, but the Dispute (which translates for many, even after all these years on, into “those greedy pilots”), became the all-encompassing and only reason for their business’ failure for many in the tourist industry back then. As mentioned above, many were already in deep trouble well beforehand and many had gone into business seeking a market that did not exist.
As Capt Dart asks...........
I also would also REALLY like to know too, so I can work out where's:
a) the nearest place to get the 6-pack of SP stubbies to help Pinky and me celebrate, and then to..............
b) relieve my bladder on the designated 'spot'.
Can anybody advise where is the Fat Man's grave and which is the nearest pub?
a) the nearest place to get the 6-pack of SP stubbies to help Pinky and me celebrate, and then to..............
b) relieve my bladder on the designated 'spot'.
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I have this mental picture of 1700 middle aged and elderly men (and, I suspect, the odd woman as well) being arrested for public exposure or indecdency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral. Add littering to that as well, with all the empty champers bottles that might be left on or around the grave.
I have to admit, that for me, the notion has a certain attraction...
Given the numbers likely to be involved, they might have to organise a queue, ( a 'U' queue?) a bit like the line that used to be seen at Lenin's tomb back in Soviet times.
I have to admit, that for me, the notion has a certain attraction...
Given the numbers likely to be involved, they might have to organise a queue, ( a 'U' queue?) a bit like the line that used to be seen at Lenin's tomb back in Soviet times.
Wiley..........
Awww c'mon Wiley! That few? There's more than that who, shall we say, have an 'interest'. 
And as for public exposure or indecency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral? Well, sorry Wiley, but I really can't imagine that 1700 (or so) 'brown-eyes' at the bastard's send-off would or could be regarded as anything but a fitting Australian 'tribute' to him that's well-deserved under the circumstances, so entirely decent I'd have thought.
What do you mean by 'might'???? Definitely will be is the going to be operative 'case' I think, and you may as well add several thousand empty stubbies too I'd say!
As for the queue, well there's obviously going to be one. It'll be the FARK YOU type for the recently-departed I'd imagine.
I have this mental picture of 1700 middle aged and elderly men (and, I suspect, the odd woman as well) being arrested for public exposure or indecdency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral
And as for public exposure or indecency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral? Well, sorry Wiley, but I really can't imagine that 1700 (or so) 'brown-eyes' at the bastard's send-off would or could be regarded as anything but a fitting Australian 'tribute' to him that's well-deserved under the circumstances, so entirely decent I'd have thought.
Add littering to that as well, with all the empty champers bottles that might be left on or around the grave.
As for the queue, well there's obviously going to be one. It'll be the FARK YOU type for the recently-departed I'd imagine.
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Why all the animosity towards Hawke and Abeles?
Those guys were doing what they had to do - and were expected to do. It was their job to do what they did. Of course they would go to any length - that was to be expected wasn't it?
The feeling, by some posters, towards these gentlemen appears to be of hatred. That is what I don't understand.
If you embark on a game of chess with somebody, who then beats you, you don't then hate that person for the next 20 years do you?
Those guys were doing what they had to do - and were expected to do. It was their job to do what they did. Of course they would go to any length - that was to be expected wasn't it?
The feeling, by some posters, towards these gentlemen appears to be of hatred. That is what I don't understand.
If you embark on a game of chess with somebody, who then beats you, you don't then hate that person for the next 20 years do you?
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Wiley.
I have read your post, above that relates to difficulties in the hospitality industry having naught to do with the Pilot's Dispute. I feel that what you have argued sounds like an excuse of from the guilty of the very, very real damage that was done to the many people who lost heavily during this period.
"Ah, the would have gone broke anyway, so it's not our fault": This is how your post reads. I wish you people would take responsibility for your actions and own up to the facts. In engaging in a 9am-5pm work to rule, AFAP was in contempt of the direction to return to normal duty hours; you BROKE THE LAW! Therefore, the writs for civil damages were issued against AFAP members who refused to work outside these hours. Remember that fact. You BROKE THE LAW and got sued.
Like other poster, I recall the many AFAP members who flooded GA after the mass resignation and took work away from GA Pilots. There are then some who have the temerity to then say that those GA Pilot who accepted work in the airlines were S.C.A.Bs.
Let's also not forget that many AFAP members also took contract work overseas, thus taking work from the many European Pilots who relied on contract work. I know several Pilots who came to Australia to take Airline jobs in 1989 who came simply because thay found that whilst AFAP was placing adds' saying there was a dispute and that Canandian and US Pilots should not accept employment in Oz, you guys were busy taking jobs that they were chasing in the contract world! In order to be consistant, AFAP and its members should have stayed right out of Aviation all together until black bans were lifted in March 1990.
Re-write history if you like, but don't give me that "we were gentelmen" routine. Sure Big Business and the Govt acted with vilainy, just don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining.
I have read your post, above that relates to difficulties in the hospitality industry having naught to do with the Pilot's Dispute. I feel that what you have argued sounds like an excuse of from the guilty of the very, very real damage that was done to the many people who lost heavily during this period.
"Ah, the would have gone broke anyway, so it's not our fault": This is how your post reads. I wish you people would take responsibility for your actions and own up to the facts. In engaging in a 9am-5pm work to rule, AFAP was in contempt of the direction to return to normal duty hours; you BROKE THE LAW! Therefore, the writs for civil damages were issued against AFAP members who refused to work outside these hours. Remember that fact. You BROKE THE LAW and got sued.
Like other poster, I recall the many AFAP members who flooded GA after the mass resignation and took work away from GA Pilots. There are then some who have the temerity to then say that those GA Pilot who accepted work in the airlines were S.C.A.Bs.
Let's also not forget that many AFAP members also took contract work overseas, thus taking work from the many European Pilots who relied on contract work. I know several Pilots who came to Australia to take Airline jobs in 1989 who came simply because thay found that whilst AFAP was placing adds' saying there was a dispute and that Canandian and US Pilots should not accept employment in Oz, you guys were busy taking jobs that they were chasing in the contract world! In order to be consistant, AFAP and its members should have stayed right out of Aviation all together until black bans were lifted in March 1990.
Re-write history if you like, but don't give me that "we were gentelmen" routine. Sure Big Business and the Govt acted with vilainy, just don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining.
Very well put Ralph. I also seem to remember in 89 we all ( what ever your occupation)were being held down in wage raises by Hawkes and the ACTU's accords. Got up to about mk7 I think and everyone was getting screwed as inflation was well ahead of wage rises. Then the pilots decided they were special and were going to break out of this arrangement as they were really professionals like surgeons and the like. Hawke and his govt weren't going to let anyone bust the accord fearing a total breakout would follow and called the pilots glorified bus drivers I seem to recall.
The ACTU in bed with the govt were also not going to back any breakout and asked the pilots to back down before things got nasty. The pilots union knew best though as they were controlling the countries air routes and could therefore not be done without ( so they thought ) and pressed on with the dispute. The rest is history with the biggest mistake they finally made by resigning on mass and therebye ending the dispute and allowing the airlines to recruit wherever they wanted.
The part that I really found disgusting about the whole thing was when the Govt allowed the military and overseas crews to come in and strike break this from a Labour govt no less.
As for the pilots union they really showed the country how smart and professional they really were.
The ACTU in bed with the govt were also not going to back any breakout and asked the pilots to back down before things got nasty. The pilots union knew best though as they were controlling the countries air routes and could therefore not be done without ( so they thought ) and pressed on with the dispute. The rest is history with the biggest mistake they finally made by resigning on mass and therebye ending the dispute and allowing the airlines to recruit wherever they wanted.
The part that I really found disgusting about the whole thing was when the Govt allowed the military and overseas crews to come in and strike break this from a Labour govt no less.
As for the pilots union they really showed the country how smart and professional they really were.
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I expected there would be replies to my post quite a bit more intemperate than yours, Ralph - and expect that over the next day or two, they'll come rolling in. Your reply is a good example of what we're all to some degree guilty of - when you feel strongly about something, you tend to latch onto only what the other party says that proves your point, ignoring my admision that we, the stay outs, made some dreadful mistakes and by no means got it right on many occasions.
I'm not saying "they would have all gone broke anyway". The Dispute, without a shadow of a doubt, hastened the demise of many and caused many other businesses to go to the walll which otherwise might have survived. However, my recollections of the parlous state of the holiday/tourist sector in Cairns pre-dispute are accurate.
And adding: thanks for the history lesson, 'mostlytossas'. As clear an example of the old axiom "history is written by the winners" as ever I've seen. However, I hasten to add that some of your comments are uncomfortably true.
I'm not saying "they would have all gone broke anyway". The Dispute, without a shadow of a doubt, hastened the demise of many and caused many other businesses to go to the walll which otherwise might have survived. However, my recollections of the parlous state of the holiday/tourist sector in Cairns pre-dispute are accurate.
And adding: thanks for the history lesson, 'mostlytossas'. As clear an example of the old axiom "history is written by the winners" as ever I've seen. However, I hasten to add that some of your comments are uncomfortably true.
Last edited by Wiley; 6th Jun 2008 at 14:35. Reason: typo/spelling
However, my recollections of the parlous state of the holiday/tourist sector in Cairns pre-dispute are accurate.
The pilots' dispute was just one small part of the national economic equation. Hawke tried to compensate by pumping tens of millions into tourism but the economy was just too sick to respond.
That's how I remember it anyway...
I was only 23 at the time and my career was only just kicking off mate. I lost more than you, I tasted the airline career in Australia I had dreamed of for 20 years and then it was GONE in a puff of dust.
Can anybody advise where is the Fat Man's grave and which is the nearest pub?