Jet* Importing Pilots
Nunc est bibendum
permFO. It has been noted and acknowledge for a while that the J* EBA had a 17% pay rise. A shame that had we all worked together it may have been 25% or more. Alas, we'll never know!
Macca, spot on mate.
Macca, spot on mate.
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Lawrie,
If you know that, then that should be the line you run, your media should have been ALL about that, and that alone.
- There is no shortage.
- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.
- The present package is obviously below industry standards.
- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.
In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.
They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.
I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.
Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
- There is no shortage.
- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.
- The present package is obviously below industry standards.
- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.
In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.
They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.
I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.
Nunc est bibendum
What Speedy said!
That sums it up Lawrie. You're not outraged over this and you should be. The reason you can't be outraged is because you were part of the problem in signing off on a crap EBA- albeit a crap EBA that was 17% better than the previous even more crap EBA. You can't be outraged because to do so would ensure that J* simply responds with the fact that it was YOU/AFAP who endorsed the deal and thus these others don't want to come home.
That sums it up Lawrie. You're not outraged over this and you should be. The reason you can't be outraged is because you were part of the problem in signing off on a crap EBA- albeit a crap EBA that was 17% better than the previous even more crap EBA. You can't be outraged because to do so would ensure that J* simply responds with the fact that it was YOU/AFAP who endorsed the deal and thus these others don't want to come home.
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Keg-I must have missed all the other references to a 17% payrise. Technically it was only 3% with the performance and retention bonus bumping up the numbers. The company acknowledged that if pilots were leaving in significant numbers because the money and conditions were better elsewhere,then they would have to come up with more money. From what I can see that hasn't happened yet,but it will be interesting if the people recruited for the 787 have to wait much longer, whether they will stick around. After all, once you have flown a 777 all over the world, taking an A320 to Ballina does not hold much appeal. GB
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can't see what the problem is. loads of aussies in europe taking jobs of the locals there.
can you see the management at Jet* putting a pilot from a light twin (with truthfully, the wrong type of experience in the way of worldwide op's) into the right hand seat of a new 787 when it arrives? there is no shortage of people looking for the first step on the ladder but when it comes to the crunch you need people with experinece up there. heard of a crew in the uk with a 2000hr Captain and a 200hr FO, in hours that is sweet FA. PS by the way, I did it the hard way as well self funded, instructor, light twin, airliner route.
lowering wages: supply v demand curve really. the more people willing to come and work the more they can play around with the T & C's.
it is the year 2009 - a global workforce. other than convincing immigration at the ports of entry there are and should be no barriers to work!!!!!
can you see the management at Jet* putting a pilot from a light twin (with truthfully, the wrong type of experience in the way of worldwide op's) into the right hand seat of a new 787 when it arrives? there is no shortage of people looking for the first step on the ladder but when it comes to the crunch you need people with experinece up there. heard of a crew in the uk with a 2000hr Captain and a 200hr FO, in hours that is sweet FA. PS by the way, I did it the hard way as well self funded, instructor, light twin, airliner route.
lowering wages: supply v demand curve really. the more people willing to come and work the more they can play around with the T & C's.
it is the year 2009 - a global workforce. other than convincing immigration at the ports of entry there are and should be no barriers to work!!!!!
Lawrie, I have to add my two cents worth. What Speedy and Keg wrote is 100% correct. AFAP did not improve the J* EBA4 as the same EBA that was previously rejected by the majority of J* pilots was voted on a second time with the only difference being the inclusion of pilots on AWA's (who were previously ineligible to vote). This was done with the assistance of and endorsement of the AFAP. At that time, the J* pilots were in the strongest industrial position possible and you assisted the J* management in shafting them - purely to do a bit of Union empire building. The majority of J* pilots were screaming out for strong Union leadership and advice but instead you were busy playing politics. There are a lot of pilots who read PPRuNe who rarely/never post but they take it all in - I suspect that AFAP membership will continue to shrink because of your lack of leadership.
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Pilot shortage? No, I prefer to see it as an aircraft surplus. Wait till oil hits $2 a barrel and see how many pilots Jetstar (or any other LCC for that matter) is hiring, let alone from overseas.
I was one of those that left several years ago because the salary was so crap. There was an EBA vote during my tenure that was successful. I couldn't believe how bad the offer was so I resigned to earn more than double overseas. There was also the nepotism that was astounding. If you weren't ex AN then you got nowhere. Part of the problem is that the boys and girls that voted for the crap deal got what they voted for. If it had been voted down, guess what would have happened? Do you think the Irishman would have said "too bad then, we cant afford to operate this airline with wages any higher than this so we will just wind the company up"? I think not somehow.
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Speedy
Quote:
Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
If you know that, then that should be the line you run, your media should have been ALL about that, and that alone.
- There is no shortage.
- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.
- The present package is obviously below industry standards.
- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.
In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.
They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.
I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.
Well Said Speedy.
Personally I think building a house is too expensive in Aus now.
I suggest the Aus government import hundreds of thousands of cheap labour, in the same manner the middle east and asia have. This will lower wages of the building trade, electricians, cleaning, road working etc. This is what they are doing with avaition.
Why is it acceptable to import pilots in this manner, yet not other jobs.
I want to return to Aus. I have the experience for a wide bodied command, but its not worth working for the budget airlines of Aus
There is NO shortage of qualified and experienced pilots in Aus. Its simply not worth it for the Aussies to return home. So they import non Aussies.
IF Salaries and work conditions were acceptable there would be hundreds of experienced pilots returning to Aus. About time they paid an acceptable salary and stopped treating Airline pilots as labourers.
Quote:
Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
If you know that, then that should be the line you run, your media should have been ALL about that, and that alone.
- There is no shortage.
- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.
- The present package is obviously below industry standards.
- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.
In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.
They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.
I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.
Well Said Speedy.
Personally I think building a house is too expensive in Aus now.
I suggest the Aus government import hundreds of thousands of cheap labour, in the same manner the middle east and asia have. This will lower wages of the building trade, electricians, cleaning, road working etc. This is what they are doing with avaition.
Why is it acceptable to import pilots in this manner, yet not other jobs.
I want to return to Aus. I have the experience for a wide bodied command, but its not worth working for the budget airlines of Aus
There is NO shortage of qualified and experienced pilots in Aus. Its simply not worth it for the Aussies to return home. So they import non Aussies.
IF Salaries and work conditions were acceptable there would be hundreds of experienced pilots returning to Aus. About time they paid an acceptable salary and stopped treating Airline pilots as labourers.
Last edited by Mr Pilot 2007; 27th May 2008 at 01:27.
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EBA 17% pay rise? Hmmm, I don't think so...
Increase in Salary for latest Jetstar EBA. All amounts include retention bonus, which is in fact only paid as a lump sum at the one, three and five year anniversaries of the new EBA.
Narrow Body
Junior FO $55,407.26 formerly $71,892.66 a decrease of 22.9% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $84,648.42 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 0.0%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $92,344.02 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 9.2%
FO after 5th year $100,039.62 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 18.3% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $153,906.70 formerly $140,966 an increase of 9.2%
Wide Body
Junior FO $63,163.28 formerly $77,643.93 a decrease of 18.7% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $96,500.28 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 5.6%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $105,272.84 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 15.2%
FO after 5th year $114,044.34 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 24.8% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $175,454.38 formerly $152,243 an increase of 15.2%
A Junior FO is defined as a pilot who has insufficient experience to qualify for an ATPL. There are very few in this category.
There are very few FOs who have been in Jetstar longer than 5 years.
Command Upgrade
FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A320 $92,344.02 formerly $105,724.50 a decrease of 12.7%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A330 $105272.84 formerly $114,182.25 a decrease of 7.8%
Conclusion
Most Jetstar pilots received a pay rise between 0 and 9% (narrow body) or 5% to 15% (wide body). As there are more FOs than Captains, and more A320 pilots than A330, the overall increase in pay for the entire pilot group, including retention bonus, is probably about 7%.
(Calculated by averaging A320 increase as 5% and A330 increase as 10%, then picking the midpoint between the two and biasing slightly towards the A320 as there are more A320 pilots)
FOs under command training took a significant pay cut.
All pilots are locked into 3% CPI rises for five years. As CPI is forecast to exceed this for at least the next two years this will result in a real decrease in pay over the life of the EBA.
For more information see this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317096
Narrow Body
Junior FO $55,407.26 formerly $71,892.66 a decrease of 22.9% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $84,648.42 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 0.0%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $92,344.02 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 9.2%
FO after 5th year $100,039.62 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 18.3% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $153,906.70 formerly $140,966 an increase of 9.2%
Wide Body
Junior FO $63,163.28 formerly $77,643.93 a decrease of 18.7% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $96,500.28 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 5.6%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $105,272.84 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 15.2%
FO after 5th year $114,044.34 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 24.8% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $175,454.38 formerly $152,243 an increase of 15.2%
A Junior FO is defined as a pilot who has insufficient experience to qualify for an ATPL. There are very few in this category.
There are very few FOs who have been in Jetstar longer than 5 years.
Command Upgrade
FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A320 $92,344.02 formerly $105,724.50 a decrease of 12.7%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A330 $105272.84 formerly $114,182.25 a decrease of 7.8%
Conclusion
Most Jetstar pilots received a pay rise between 0 and 9% (narrow body) or 5% to 15% (wide body). As there are more FOs than Captains, and more A320 pilots than A330, the overall increase in pay for the entire pilot group, including retention bonus, is probably about 7%.
(Calculated by averaging A320 increase as 5% and A330 increase as 10%, then picking the midpoint between the two and biasing slightly towards the A320 as there are more A320 pilots)
FOs under command training took a significant pay cut.
All pilots are locked into 3% CPI rises for five years. As CPI is forecast to exceed this for at least the next two years this will result in a real decrease in pay over the life of the EBA.
For more information see this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317096
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Speedy,
I applauded your post. The very silence of Lawrie Cox after your post makes me very comfortable with the fact that I resigned from the AFAP even after my email of concern to the AFAP to work closer with AIPA.
It was not a hollow threat. Nothing happened, so I resigned from the AFAP and the apparent lack of action on this thread strengthens my resolve. I am now a member of AIPA.
I will see how it goes from here, at this rate I will probably end up off-shore for more money, just like nearly all of my mates..
But thats cool, all the baby boomers will retire when the conditions reach rock bottom and 'hot potatoe' the s;;t sandwich to 'someone else'..
NOT REALLY THEIR PROBLEM IS IT, so why do we really think they are motivated to fix it?
I applauded your post. The very silence of Lawrie Cox after your post makes me very comfortable with the fact that I resigned from the AFAP even after my email of concern to the AFAP to work closer with AIPA.
It was not a hollow threat. Nothing happened, so I resigned from the AFAP and the apparent lack of action on this thread strengthens my resolve. I am now a member of AIPA.
I will see how it goes from here, at this rate I will probably end up off-shore for more money, just like nearly all of my mates..
But thats cool, all the baby boomers will retire when the conditions reach rock bottom and 'hot potatoe' the s;;t sandwich to 'someone else'..
NOT REALLY THEIR PROBLEM IS IT, so why do we really think they are motivated to fix it?
Condition Lever,
Surely it was a great idea. No pilot was disadvantage. If every current Jetstar pilot has the ability to have a crack at command on Jetstar aircraft before any qantas pilot, every Qlink has a crack at command on Qlink aircraft before any jetstar/qantas pilot and they all have the ability to move to mainline if they desire how can that be bad. Also the cap on type changes during your career would have provided QF with large savings.
The whole concept would have got up in a landslide from a mainline perspective.
Surely it was a great idea. No pilot was disadvantage. If every current Jetstar pilot has the ability to have a crack at command on Jetstar aircraft before any qantas pilot, every Qlink has a crack at command on Qlink aircraft before any jetstar/qantas pilot and they all have the ability to move to mainline if they desire how can that be bad. Also the cap on type changes during your career would have provided QF with large savings.
The whole concept would have got up in a landslide from a mainline perspective.
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Lawrie,
Please do not insult our intelligence, and yes I can read.
You know as well as I do that the only reason the EBA got up was they allowed the AWA's guys to vote....utterly disgraceful..
Your AFAP has sat back and done nothing for too long and i'm afraid you have made your bed.
Believe me Lawrie and your fellow AFAP cronies, nobody I fly with has any confidence in your organization and i'd hazard a guess and say your "UNION" may only last a while longer unless you get off your asses and do what you are paid for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please do not insult our intelligence, and yes I can read.
You know as well as I do that the only reason the EBA got up was they allowed the AWA's guys to vote....utterly disgraceful..
Your AFAP has sat back and done nothing for too long and i'm afraid you have made your bed.
Believe me Lawrie and your fellow AFAP cronies, nobody I fly with has any confidence in your organization and i'd hazard a guess and say your "UNION" may only last a while longer unless you get off your asses and do what you are paid for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
at least you lot can rest in the knowledge that the yarpies are trying to escape a country that is one of the most dangerous in the world, the poms want a place to retire where it doesnt rain and need a passport or at least permanent residency for that. they are using jetstar as a stepping stone, nothing more, can you blame them ?
both of these nationalities could easily immigrate to australia under the skilled visa program as almost all aviation professions are listed under the skills shortage, but why fork out for it yourself when jetstar, read: qantas, are willing to do it for you.
dont blame the players, blame the game jetstar run
both of these nationalities could easily immigrate to australia under the skilled visa program as almost all aviation professions are listed under the skills shortage, but why fork out for it yourself when jetstar, read: qantas, are willing to do it for you.
dont blame the players, blame the game jetstar run
Pin Head,
The experience to crew aircraft at Jetstar, both Left and Right seat, comes from within the Qantas Group (JQ, Mainline, Qantaslink). As an example, a Qantas 767 F/O with 10 years + experience in both domestic and international long haul ops, could easily slide into the LHS of a A330. S/Os could then take up F/O positions at either airline and then the "light twin" pilot you talk of can do his apprenticeship as an S/O. No better place to learn the ins and outs of airline ops, and get some exposure to operating Internationally at the same time.
However, JQ/QF management will do everything it can to prevent this from happening as it will inevitably cause upward pressure on Jetstar wages to bring them in line with those at Mainline. Only when wages are on par (i.e. a JQ A330 pilot earns the same as a QF A330 pilot, etc) can any sort of GOAL work.
By the way, and I stand to be corrected, any Aussie pilot working in Europe or the UK would require residency or an EU passport. They aren't there because the airlines concerned needed cheap labour.
TL
can you see the management at Jet* putting a pilot from a light twin (with truthfully, the wrong type of experience in the way of worldwide op's) into the right hand seat of a new 787 when it arrives? there is no shortage of people looking for the first step on the ladder but when it comes to the crunch you need people with experinece up there. heard of a crew in the uk with a 2000hr Captain and a 200hr FO, in hours that is sweet FA. PS by the way, I did it the hard way as well self funded, instructor, light twin, airliner route.
However, JQ/QF management will do everything it can to prevent this from happening as it will inevitably cause upward pressure on Jetstar wages to bring them in line with those at Mainline. Only when wages are on par (i.e. a JQ A330 pilot earns the same as a QF A330 pilot, etc) can any sort of GOAL work.
By the way, and I stand to be corrected, any Aussie pilot working in Europe or the UK would require residency or an EU passport. They aren't there because the airlines concerned needed cheap labour.
TL
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can't see what the problem is. loads of aussies in europe taking jobs of the locals there.
MAX