Jet* Importing Pilots
You are all missing the point. Jetstar needs to crew their aircraft not enough applicants are trying to go there , most Aussie expats who apply will get a job nobody is missing out. I think the Jetstar boys are trying to get leverage off this for a pay rise . no chance . Like the place or go overseas and work . Many professional go overseas for more money, some will take less to stay home accept it everyone has options, a lot of Australians live on 1/2 of what an f/o makes so dont bother screaming in public.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are really in Alaska, I can forgive your ignorance. Just in case you are, the j* pilots have signed a 5 year deal have no legal mechanism to seek higher wages until 2013. Any illegal industrial action would result in massive fines for those involved.
So no, this in not about a wage increase.
So no, this in not about a wage increase.
Its all about keeping costs down, NOTHING to do with a pilots shortage.
If Cheapstar had good T and C they would have no problem getting Australian pilots.
And I wouldn't expect any help from the new government at all.
The Visa deal has been sold to them as a way of keeping LOW wages. I have no doubt the PR teams of both government and Cheapstar have already written the spin for it as shown by the remarks that one of the reasons for this is to help the regionals keep their pilots!?
And we all know how this government likes people who EARN over 100K....and their past in dealing with pilots.
It would be a great thing for AIPA and AFAP to work together on to stop this and unite.....now I really am dreaming.
If Cheapstar had good T and C they would have no problem getting Australian pilots.
And I wouldn't expect any help from the new government at all.
The Visa deal has been sold to them as a way of keeping LOW wages. I have no doubt the PR teams of both government and Cheapstar have already written the spin for it as shown by the remarks that one of the reasons for this is to help the regionals keep their pilots!?
And we all know how this government likes people who EARN over 100K....and their past in dealing with pilots.
It would be a great thing for AIPA and AFAP to work together on to stop this and unite.....now I really am dreaming.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And your starting point for dreaming that AIPA and the AFAP might unite is to bucket Jetstar pilots by referring to their employer as "Cheapstar"?. Where did you study diplomacy? You know how upset some folks get at the use of terms like "Sky Gods"......how about some inter-pilot group CRM techniques?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Over the past 6 months there has been a steady influx of DEC's hired under the pretense that they will be converted into training and checking or in jetstars case - failing and checking - types.
MW, the individual currently steering the SS jetstar towrds the rocks instigated this action to make up for the overall lack of suitable trainers that the company could draw on. Now, suprise, suprise this hasn't happened.
These DEC's (many returning from overseas) have merely become normal line drivers, comfortably occupying command positions in various bases whilst those within who were granted command slots some six months ago still wait any sign of commencement of training.
The visa issue is important and needs to be addressed, however so does the current situation of those who have been given command slots and those FO's who are elligible to bid for command slots being surpassed by these direct entry individuals.
Jetstar seniority is non existant, Ansett seniority unfortunetately isn't and this is not just another case of "not that old chestnut again".
We as a pilot group were sold out by the soon to be ousted JPA and even more so by the AFAP. Whilst we all understand the need to hire qualified individuals to ensure progression and success, where does screwing over your existing and loyal employee's come into it?
Unfortuneately many of the senior guys in the company still think they are in GA and as such thought the EBA was a good thing.
Unfortuneately as a group there is very little unity and the ensuing EBA debarcle revealed just how many self serving "screw you, im alright Jack" types there are within.
Unfortuneately as a group we have let things to come this and there is very little we can do about it.
This is not an attack against the DEC's, they had an opportunity to come back and why not?
No, this is a consequence of the spineless JPA's underhanded sell out of those who supported it, the general appathy current jetstar management has toward its pilot group and the outstanding lack of anything from that toothless tiger the AFAP who again just let it all roll on.
Time to grab a coffee, a deck chair and wait for the terse replies.......
MW, the individual currently steering the SS jetstar towrds the rocks instigated this action to make up for the overall lack of suitable trainers that the company could draw on. Now, suprise, suprise this hasn't happened.
These DEC's (many returning from overseas) have merely become normal line drivers, comfortably occupying command positions in various bases whilst those within who were granted command slots some six months ago still wait any sign of commencement of training.
The visa issue is important and needs to be addressed, however so does the current situation of those who have been given command slots and those FO's who are elligible to bid for command slots being surpassed by these direct entry individuals.
Jetstar seniority is non existant, Ansett seniority unfortunetately isn't and this is not just another case of "not that old chestnut again".
We as a pilot group were sold out by the soon to be ousted JPA and even more so by the AFAP. Whilst we all understand the need to hire qualified individuals to ensure progression and success, where does screwing over your existing and loyal employee's come into it?
Unfortuneately many of the senior guys in the company still think they are in GA and as such thought the EBA was a good thing.
Unfortuneately as a group there is very little unity and the ensuing EBA debarcle revealed just how many self serving "screw you, im alright Jack" types there are within.
Unfortuneately as a group we have let things to come this and there is very little we can do about it.
This is not an attack against the DEC's, they had an opportunity to come back and why not?
No, this is a consequence of the spineless JPA's underhanded sell out of those who supported it, the general appathy current jetstar management has toward its pilot group and the outstanding lack of anything from that toothless tiger the AFAP who again just let it all roll on.
Time to grab a coffee, a deck chair and wait for the terse replies.......
Better yet unite and represent all pilots including GA. Show some leadership and take control of the industry. Say no to 457's, MPL's, dodgy operators, below award wages, 200 hour FO's, inadequate ATC, falling real wages, poor quality instructors and the continuing decline in aviation standards.
Real leadership looks at the big picture not just whats in it for me!
See the medicos and the legal fraternity to see how they control the standards and the supply of labour. I see GP's are putting their hands up for 19% pay rise.
Real leadership looks at the big picture not just whats in it for me!
See the medicos and the legal fraternity to see how they control the standards and the supply of labour. I see GP's are putting their hands up for 19% pay rise.
Doctors, like pilots, have to outlay a very significant amount of money to gain their qualifications so there has to be adequate remuneration, otherwise, school graduates will not follow into the profession - a pay rise is obviously necessary for them.
The same applies for pilots - Jetstar management's continuing efforts to pay inadequate remuneration will continue the exodus of trained pilots overseas and fewer young people will outlay the money necessary to gain the qualifications. They are simply making the problem worse but they are yet to realise it.
TCAS - no terse replies from me - I think you summed it up well.
The same applies for pilots - Jetstar management's continuing efforts to pay inadequate remuneration will continue the exodus of trained pilots overseas and fewer young people will outlay the money necessary to gain the qualifications. They are simply making the problem worse but they are yet to realise it.
TCAS - no terse replies from me - I think you summed it up well.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what to do..
I think you guys have to begin to stand up for yourselves here. As has been proven, don't expect any help from your union, it aint coming. An airline needs pilots to operate, there are more of you than there are of them.
Idealistic I know, but what is the alternative? Bend over and take it?
Idealistic I know, but what is the alternative? Bend over and take it?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The visa issue is important and needs to be addressed, however so does the current situation of those who have been given command slots and those FO's who are elligible to bid for command slots being surpassed by these direct entry individuals.
To the apologists...
1. for 457 visas...
How can you seriously assert that promotions for eligible (ie suitably qualified) Jetstar pilots are NOT affected by the import of 75 foreign direct captains? Any pilot who's not yet a captain will have their promotional opportunity deferred by these 75 positions. Rapid expansion is no consolation to that unavoidable fact!
and
2. for foreign pilots coming to Oz just because aussies went 'over there' in the past...
How can this be the same thing? The aussies working in the US/UK/EU/mid-east have doubtless all had the appropriate accreditation (family tree/passport/spouse) to score those jobs. Similar beauracratic reciprocity has always applied in Oz; look how many ex-US/NZ/UK pilots are QF employees. In other cases certain countries had virtually zero pilots and needed pilots from everywhere to grow (eg EK). The difference now with 457 visas is that spin is influencing a government to allow the import of non-resident, non-national pilots under the guise of a shortage of suitable local talent; and this from a company which pays less, demands payment for endorsements, and has generally lowered the bar on conditions. I understand Jetstar management's predicament completely; but it is of their own making.
The QF group, from Jetstar domestic & international to mainline, has hundreds of very experienced F/Os with thousands of hours command-endorsed in commercial jets who've been plying the world's airways for over ten years. In most other world-class airlines (eg Cathay) they would ALL be captains with those levels of experience and would not be overlooked for promotion in the fashion of this 457 spin!
This in not about pilot shortages or lack of suitable Australian candidates. It is about a whole lot perception management to skew the labour costs once again.
How can you seriously assert that promotions for eligible (ie suitably qualified) Jetstar pilots are NOT affected by the import of 75 foreign direct captains? Any pilot who's not yet a captain will have their promotional opportunity deferred by these 75 positions. Rapid expansion is no consolation to that unavoidable fact!
and
2. for foreign pilots coming to Oz just because aussies went 'over there' in the past...
How can this be the same thing? The aussies working in the US/UK/EU/mid-east have doubtless all had the appropriate accreditation (family tree/passport/spouse) to score those jobs. Similar beauracratic reciprocity has always applied in Oz; look how many ex-US/NZ/UK pilots are QF employees. In other cases certain countries had virtually zero pilots and needed pilots from everywhere to grow (eg EK). The difference now with 457 visas is that spin is influencing a government to allow the import of non-resident, non-national pilots under the guise of a shortage of suitable local talent; and this from a company which pays less, demands payment for endorsements, and has generally lowered the bar on conditions. I understand Jetstar management's predicament completely; but it is of their own making.
The QF group, from Jetstar domestic & international to mainline, has hundreds of very experienced F/Os with thousands of hours command-endorsed in commercial jets who've been plying the world's airways for over ten years. In most other world-class airlines (eg Cathay) they would ALL be captains with those levels of experience and would not be overlooked for promotion in the fashion of this 457 spin!
This in not about pilot shortages or lack of suitable Australian candidates. It is about a whole lot perception management to skew the labour costs once again.
Last edited by Jetsbest; 28th May 2008 at 03:07. Reason: spelling
Nunc est bibendum
genex being precious.
And your starting point for dreaming that AIPA and the AFAP might unite is to bucket Jetstar pilots by referring to their employer as "Cheapstar"?.
Besides, do they or do they not market themselves as cheaper than the rest?
Seriously you need to not be so precious about it all. (And people reckon that I'M sensitive when it comes to my airline/association!)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here's the big picture and we're all in it
Seems that it really doesn't matter whether your driving, in the cabin or on the ground - no matter what logo is on the tail, at the moment the things that oppose and divide us are far outweighed by what we have in common.
With most/all airline growth strategies wholly dependant on short term gratification and justification (notably by grasping more foreskin than foresight,) the issues faced by anyone working in RPT are (almost) universal.
The really scary part now is that like no other time before, it's the regulatory/legislative environments (& even the regulators) that are seen as the precursor targets.
This philosophy is simple, and has been well demonstrated - change the regulatory environment to prescribe or favour the airline's desired cost reduction model and even the most cohesive, unionised workforces are marginalised before the work day begins.
AT
With most/all airline growth strategies wholly dependant on short term gratification and justification (notably by grasping more foreskin than foresight,) the issues faced by anyone working in RPT are (almost) universal.
The really scary part now is that like no other time before, it's the regulatory/legislative environments (& even the regulators) that are seen as the precursor targets.
This philosophy is simple, and has been well demonstrated - change the regulatory environment to prescribe or favour the airline's desired cost reduction model and even the most cohesive, unionised workforces are marginalised before the work day begins.
AT
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South of the border
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to this thread, JQ/QF are starting to reduce capacity and dump some airframes/routes.
Surely that would add weight to the argument that the 457 visa holders are not a neccesity?
Surely that would add weight to the argument that the 457 visa holders are not a neccesity?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Richmond Tasmania
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I notice that Lawrie Cox has gone to water again with the going getting tough!
He did the same thing back in 89' when the going got tough, went to water. And boy, did he ever! It was embarrassing to watch.
How he's had the nerve to continue in his position with the AFAP since 89' has always intrigued me.
Still, when you been emasculated as he was during the 89' dispute I guess there's nowhere to go other than to become a company stooge!
He's certainly doing that job well at the moment, he's let the pilots down before and he's doing it again!
He did the same thing back in 89' when the going got tough, went to water. And boy, did he ever! It was embarrassing to watch.
How he's had the nerve to continue in his position with the AFAP since 89' has always intrigued me.
Still, when you been emasculated as he was during the 89' dispute I guess there's nowhere to go other than to become a company stooge!
He's certainly doing that job well at the moment, he's let the pilots down before and he's doing it again!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SID-OOH-NEE
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Legal Action
I hear Gordon and Slater are set to serve AJ with a big wad of legal headaches.
Apparently a group of highly qualified Airbus drivers who were considered to be in "the wrong BBQ set" have taken exception to the imports, when they are more than qualified and willing to work for JQ.
Points to be raised through the court application;
Sounds like some "creative paperwork" will be surfacing...
Apparently a group of highly qualified Airbus drivers who were considered to be in "the wrong BBQ set" have taken exception to the imports, when they are more than qualified and willing to work for JQ.
Points to be raised through the court application;
- Why almost all ex Ansett management/ check pilots have not been through the interview process?
- How then are they qualified to reject equally and/ or better qualified Australian candidates?
- Why are ex-AN less qualified pilots "from the correct BBQ set" still being recruited as DEC without going through the interview process? [The latest placed directly into S/E QLD base waiting for his 787 checkie postion...and the JQ guys don't even offer a whimper.]
Sounds like some "creative paperwork" will be surfacing...
Last edited by UNOME; 29th May 2008 at 00:27. Reason: Jet laggggzzzzzz
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar plugs gaps with foreign pilots
5:00AM Wednesday May 28, 2008
Qantas has confirmed reports that its cut-price offshoot Jetstar is employing foreign pilots to supplement its Australian flight crew.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said Jetstar was recruiting pilots at a rate of 15 a month, with 200 employed in Australia since January 2007.
Most of these were domestically trained, while "some pilots from overseas" would be employed under temporary 457 work visas.
News Ltd put the figure at 75 foreign pilots, while adding that Jetstar had also recently hired 20 foreign cabin crew, and said it had Government approval to hire up to 60 more.
Dixon said Qantas had separately recruited 170 pilots this financial year.
- AAP
5:00AM Wednesday May 28, 2008
Qantas has confirmed reports that its cut-price offshoot Jetstar is employing foreign pilots to supplement its Australian flight crew.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said Jetstar was recruiting pilots at a rate of 15 a month, with 200 employed in Australia since January 2007.
Most of these were domestically trained, while "some pilots from overseas" would be employed under temporary 457 work visas.
News Ltd put the figure at 75 foreign pilots, while adding that Jetstar had also recently hired 20 foreign cabin crew, and said it had Government approval to hire up to 60 more.
Dixon said Qantas had separately recruited 170 pilots this financial year.
- AAP
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Burkina Faso, Disputed Zone
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....and in the afternoon we are now told about Qantas and Jetstar reducing capacity!!! Jetstar are reducing capacity by 2 aircraft!! Additionally a recruitment freeze has been in force and many pilots have stopped earning overtime for a number of months.
In my opinion it is simply cheaper to employ qualified pilots rather than train new captains and trainers.
A side note: One of lies peddled to sell the last EBA was that a new FO could expect a command 2 years after starting!! I don't think many pilots believed it or thought it relevant but none-the-less an apparent lie! It was all about trust!
In my opinion it is simply cheaper to employ qualified pilots rather than train new captains and trainers.
A side note: One of lies peddled to sell the last EBA was that a new FO could expect a command 2 years after starting!! I don't think many pilots believed it or thought it relevant but none-the-less an apparent lie! It was all about trust!