Jet* Importing Pilots
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Fight the Government
Remember our government is a legal entity.
2 points-
1- 457 visas are only to be issued if there are not qualified Australians to take the positions. We don’t decide what qualifies a person to command a transport category jet in our own opinion; the government has done that for us. It is defined as the holder of an ICAO ATPL. This is the regulatory requirement and therefore the definition. (Therefore the government has acted illegally because there are sufficient Australian ATPL holder around)
2- Don’t bother with the unions; take a class action against the signatory ministers of the visa’s. You have the opposition ministers and ombudsman to help. This is a matter for the high court. Don’t just email your local member, go and see them. Organise a meeting. I am meeting with my local member and I don’t fly for j*, but I do think it is a disgrace due to misinformation from the company to the government. However the government should have made greater enquiry before issuing the 457’s.
http://www.comb.gov.au/
2 points-
1- 457 visas are only to be issued if there are not qualified Australians to take the positions. We don’t decide what qualifies a person to command a transport category jet in our own opinion; the government has done that for us. It is defined as the holder of an ICAO ATPL. This is the regulatory requirement and therefore the definition. (Therefore the government has acted illegally because there are sufficient Australian ATPL holder around)
2- Don’t bother with the unions; take a class action against the signatory ministers of the visa’s. You have the opposition ministers and ombudsman to help. This is a matter for the high court. Don’t just email your local member, go and see them. Organise a meeting. I am meeting with my local member and I don’t fly for j*, but I do think it is a disgrace due to misinformation from the company to the government. However the government should have made greater enquiry before issuing the 457’s.
http://www.comb.gov.au/
Join Date: May 2005
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The Federal minister for Industrial Relations and work place, and the Federal Minister for Immigration both stated that the Jet* application for 457 visas were not supported. So it is a simple question. Has the Federal Government issued any 457 visas to South African pilots for the purpose of working for Jet*? Now I know Julia Gillard loves getting on T.V. Perhaps the media or AIPA can ask some direct questions.
Secondly, Fact. Around 15 South Africans started at Jet* around 1 month ago. Under what provisions? There is plenty of information and examples that this IS HAPPENING. If the union was serious about protecting pilots best interests, than they would do something about it!
Secondly, Fact. Around 15 South Africans started at Jet* around 1 month ago. Under what provisions? There is plenty of information and examples that this IS HAPPENING. If the union was serious about protecting pilots best interests, than they would do something about it!
Hi all. Firstly I want to stress that I got nothing to do with all of this, just reading on this boring afternoon.
Just my two cents. I used to work for a setup flying F28’s in sunny South Africa around 2003. And gues what - some Australian Pilots came and worked for us. And the funny thing is there where lots of guys around (even within the company) that could have done the job.
But - the Australians where prepared to except worse working conditions. For example living conditions and duty times.
Funny they did not moan about expats and locals and so on. Simply they needed a job and excepted what came with it.
Just want to point that out. I don’t really worry to much about things like that , as I strongly believe everybody makes there own bed and sleeps in it.
Anyway - good luck and enjoy the flying !!!!
Just my two cents. I used to work for a setup flying F28’s in sunny South Africa around 2003. And gues what - some Australian Pilots came and worked for us. And the funny thing is there where lots of guys around (even within the company) that could have done the job.
But - the Australians where prepared to except worse working conditions. For example living conditions and duty times.
Funny they did not moan about expats and locals and so on. Simply they needed a job and excepted what came with it.
Just want to point that out. I don’t really worry to much about things like that , as I strongly believe everybody makes there own bed and sleeps in it.
Anyway - good luck and enjoy the flying !!!!
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Unions in this country, especially pilots unions, are only interested in on thing.
COVERAGE! They dont care about their members. They dont listen to their members. Thats why the AFAP and AIPA fight in court, spending our membership fees for coverage, instead of getting together and fighting these issues such as the 457 Visa issue, and creating EBAs that are indicitive of the current situation, PILOT SHORTAGE.
They have stopped listening to their members and will suffer the consequences. Such as new unions forming and stripping the their pilot membership, ie VIPA. Pay and conditions have been eroded by not only the individuals choice of employment, but also lack of Union leadership and a clear stand on issues. Unions are gun shy from 89, they lack passion, they lack soul, and they are outdated in their thinking. They blame the pilots for outcomes when it suits them, and take the credit when it suits them.
They could not give a rats about us, just look at our pay and conditions now compared to years gone by. Yes we as pilots are partly to blame, yet the Unions have to take some responsibility too. At the end of the day, we pay your salary too Mr Union Man. Have you taken a pay cut lately Mr Union Man? Have you had someone come and take your promotion lately on a 457 Visa lately Mr Union Man? Do you have to operate 90 hours of flying in 28 days Mr Union Man? Dont forget Mr Union Man, we pay your food bill!
COVERAGE! They dont care about their members. They dont listen to their members. Thats why the AFAP and AIPA fight in court, spending our membership fees for coverage, instead of getting together and fighting these issues such as the 457 Visa issue, and creating EBAs that are indicitive of the current situation, PILOT SHORTAGE.
They have stopped listening to their members and will suffer the consequences. Such as new unions forming and stripping the their pilot membership, ie VIPA. Pay and conditions have been eroded by not only the individuals choice of employment, but also lack of Union leadership and a clear stand on issues. Unions are gun shy from 89, they lack passion, they lack soul, and they are outdated in their thinking. They blame the pilots for outcomes when it suits them, and take the credit when it suits them.
They could not give a rats about us, just look at our pay and conditions now compared to years gone by. Yes we as pilots are partly to blame, yet the Unions have to take some responsibility too. At the end of the day, we pay your salary too Mr Union Man. Have you taken a pay cut lately Mr Union Man? Have you had someone come and take your promotion lately on a 457 Visa lately Mr Union Man? Do you have to operate 90 hours of flying in 28 days Mr Union Man? Dont forget Mr Union Man, we pay your food bill!
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Please do not take my silence as accepting some of the rubbish posted here. I have said on many occassions i attempt to give facts rather than get into a 'slagging match'.
A note to the Mods remmber the commitment to respond to the issues not demean or slander?
Obie
Having read it again you could not be further from the truth but I suspect I am wasting my breath. I would watch out come September when Drug testing starts because you are to close to the poppie farm in Northern Tas.
Dirty Deeds
Yet again attack the union as cox or other staff/ You forget the leadership are operating pilots and they determine the direction. My conditions of employemnt are dealt with by elected pilots and yes my hours regularly exceed CAO 48 protections that you have. Do I say no to a member in trouble over the weekend or at midnight or early on Sunday morning when a Company has directed something, Short answer is no.
It is amazing even the most vocal of critics seem to find our number when they are in trouble.
The one thing I will agree is that we are wasting money and resources fighting each other but that as you would know is ego driven by those who want to control pilot bodies rather than sitting down and working out a plan for a united body. As i understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots who want to be spokesman or employed as industrial officers rather than fly aircraft but does it really help pilots again the short answer is no.
Just remember whilst we fight each other we leave the companies alone. Which is what most want.
I hope you dont mind me saying that i do have other things to do than sit down at computer and respond postings of non members on a regular basis but occassionally it is a good distraction. Perhaps a few more of you should spend time on development of policy in a union or working on a technical committee or acting as a pilot friend in an accident/incident and find out what its is really all about being a member of a pilot union.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
A note to the Mods remmber the commitment to respond to the issues not demean or slander?
Obie
Having read it again you could not be further from the truth but I suspect I am wasting my breath. I would watch out come September when Drug testing starts because you are to close to the poppie farm in Northern Tas.
Dirty Deeds
Yet again attack the union as cox or other staff/ You forget the leadership are operating pilots and they determine the direction. My conditions of employemnt are dealt with by elected pilots and yes my hours regularly exceed CAO 48 protections that you have. Do I say no to a member in trouble over the weekend or at midnight or early on Sunday morning when a Company has directed something, Short answer is no.
It is amazing even the most vocal of critics seem to find our number when they are in trouble.
The one thing I will agree is that we are wasting money and resources fighting each other but that as you would know is ego driven by those who want to control pilot bodies rather than sitting down and working out a plan for a united body. As i understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots who want to be spokesman or employed as industrial officers rather than fly aircraft but does it really help pilots again the short answer is no.
Just remember whilst we fight each other we leave the companies alone. Which is what most want.
I hope you dont mind me saying that i do have other things to do than sit down at computer and respond postings of non members on a regular basis but occassionally it is a good distraction. Perhaps a few more of you should spend time on development of policy in a union or working on a technical committee or acting as a pilot friend in an accident/incident and find out what its is really all about being a member of a pilot union.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
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From the AFAP
To all Members
This is an urgent message to find out if you are an Airbus Captain who has applied to Jetstar or you know of a pilot who is an Airbus Captain, are an Australian citizen and has applied to Jetstar.
You maybe aware that the Company has Federal Government approval for up to 75 non Australian citizens to join Jetstar as Direct Entry Captains.
The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008.
Our position on this that we would prefer Australians filling the jobs but in the event there are none available we will continue to work with the Company to minimise the numbers of non Australian citizens needed that provide the experience base for the existing and future First officers to get their experience hours up on type to take future commands at Jetstar.
Many if not all of these will be drawn from the Regional's and General Aviation and our commitment as an organisation is to ensure that they have the maximum career opportunity available in Australia as part of the Company's rapid expansion.
If you know of any one in the above category please contact them and provide us the information that we can get to the Company and Government quickly.
If any member has question on this topic please contact me through the Melbourne office (03) 99285737 or email [email protected].
Regards,
AFAP Communications
This is an urgent message to find out if you are an Airbus Captain who has applied to Jetstar or you know of a pilot who is an Airbus Captain, are an Australian citizen and has applied to Jetstar.
You maybe aware that the Company has Federal Government approval for up to 75 non Australian citizens to join Jetstar as Direct Entry Captains.
The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008.
Our position on this that we would prefer Australians filling the jobs but in the event there are none available we will continue to work with the Company to minimise the numbers of non Australian citizens needed that provide the experience base for the existing and future First officers to get their experience hours up on type to take future commands at Jetstar.
Many if not all of these will be drawn from the Regional's and General Aviation and our commitment as an organisation is to ensure that they have the maximum career opportunity available in Australia as part of the Company's rapid expansion.
If you know of any one in the above category please contact them and provide us the information that we can get to the Company and Government quickly.
If any member has question on this topic please contact me through the Melbourne office (03) 99285737 or email [email protected].
Regards,
AFAP Communications
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Are they still there?
Just a quick question to Mr. Volare 737, are those aussies you alledged to have undermined your accomadation and conditions still in SA? I doubt it, they have filled a gap and not used up those employment slots that earned you your monikor.
I don't think people would have that much of a problem if it was to fill a 12 month gap. We here in the red land know better though, any Afrikaaners that get the gig want to stay, as they should in gods country and given current and future problems in their own country. The perception is they will keep taking those slots, not allowing for Australians to progress. This also may be seen as the thin edge of the wedge, given there is already a supply of qualified Australian applicants, whose job will be next? That's why you see the venom and people trying to point out that others had to leave to get work and we think they should be allowed back to work here first. On fair and equitable market rates too.
I don't think people would have that much of a problem if it was to fill a 12 month gap. We here in the red land know better though, any Afrikaaners that get the gig want to stay, as they should in gods country and given current and future problems in their own country. The perception is they will keep taking those slots, not allowing for Australians to progress. This also may be seen as the thin edge of the wedge, given there is already a supply of qualified Australian applicants, whose job will be next? That's why you see the venom and people trying to point out that others had to leave to get work and we think they should be allowed back to work here first. On fair and equitable market rates too.
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Cox has said..." as I understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots..."
Says it all really, doesn't it, coming from a supposed pilot rep?
Says it all really, doesn't it, coming from a supposed pilot rep?
The Australian aviation scene is full of p***weak" "w**kers" who are not prepared to either stand up for themselves, or to back those that will.
If more pilots who believed in the future of piloting in Australia, were willing to back up, and become involved in the AFAP, (or the AIPA) for that matter, to forge a better future for Australian pilots, instead of slagging off at those who do actually put in the effort, then we would have a chance of improving our lot.
But until that happens, we are doomed to the pathetic and unjustified denigration of good charactar, displayed by this ignorant poster.
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QUOTE :While Mr Somerville did not directly say that the strategy would compromise passenger safety, he said he would "bet that the pilots brought in from the UK are not from British Airways, put it that way". I don't know what the pilots from overseas are like
What a stupid comment!!!!! Is he saying that unless you work for BA you are not a safe and compentent pilot. Absoulte disgrace
Again, suitability of people - do jet star really want a 1000hr bush pilot in front of their flying plastic aircraft when it finally arrives
What a stupid comment!!!!! Is he saying that unless you work for BA you are not a safe and compentent pilot. Absoulte disgrace
Again, suitability of people - do jet star really want a 1000hr bush pilot in front of their flying plastic aircraft when it finally arrives
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Aussie and Kiwi Pilots have done exceptionally well and contributed much to UK Aviation, why would the same not happen in Aus with well chosen, highly competent aviation professionals from a broad?
It this a case of Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi? no one else is good enough?
It this a case of Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi? no one else is good enough?
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What Peter Somerville is alluding to is the fact that few if any of the pilots applying from outside Australia would have their standards/employment records easily verified.
If these Jetstar positions were filled by QF mainline pilots under the MOU, then Jetstar would know exactly what they were getting.
Qantas went through the DEC route many years ago and that was the problem they faced then. Some of the DEC's in fact never got a command because their standards were far below how they had represented themselves.
If these Jetstar positions were filled by QF mainline pilots under the MOU, then Jetstar would know exactly what they were getting.
Qantas went through the DEC route many years ago and that was the problem they faced then. Some of the DEC's in fact never got a command because their standards were far below how they had represented themselves.
I find that hard to believe, If you want to find out about a DEC's credentials you can pick up a phone and find out, in no time at all. I hear KAL have been caught out by not running proper background checks and therefore ended up in that situation, but they're desperate.
Nunc est bibendum
ussie and Kiwi Pilots have done exceptionally well and contributed much to UK Aviation...
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If Jetstar wishes to employ a mainline pilot, they would have full access to their employment history including Simulator scores and application testing. Tryng finding that sort of information on some bodgy pom, who really should have a job in today's climate, bungs in an application on spec.
"The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008."
Isn't this precisely the point some are trying to make here; that there are probably very few or no Australian pilots overseas that are 320/330/340 rated and prepared to come and work for the present remuneration. The Federation, confirming this, is only furthering the cause for 457 visas.
On the other hand there are probably scores of potential applicants that would command a 320 for AUD220K. This is why I and many others have left for better paid jobs.
With the cost of oil where it is now the percentage of operating costs attributed to pilots wages has fallen dramatically. Paying real world salaries would only add a few dollars to each ticket and ease for the forseeable future the supposed pilot shortage. That shortage, if it is real, starts at the flying schools and GA level. If your average school leaver sees a real prosect of a career in aviation, because of competetive salaries, versus one in IT, advertising, law, medicine etc then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I suspect however that the labour government would go to extrordinary lengths to see that pilots didn't get significant pay rises as it would go against their manifesto. Thus the 457s could be a done deal.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008."
Isn't this precisely the point some are trying to make here; that there are probably very few or no Australian pilots overseas that are 320/330/340 rated and prepared to come and work for the present remuneration. The Federation, confirming this, is only furthering the cause for 457 visas.
On the other hand there are probably scores of potential applicants that would command a 320 for AUD220K. This is why I and many others have left for better paid jobs.
With the cost of oil where it is now the percentage of operating costs attributed to pilots wages has fallen dramatically. Paying real world salaries would only add a few dollars to each ticket and ease for the forseeable future the supposed pilot shortage. That shortage, if it is real, starts at the flying schools and GA level. If your average school leaver sees a real prosect of a career in aviation, because of competetive salaries, versus one in IT, advertising, law, medicine etc then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I suspect however that the labour government would go to extrordinary lengths to see that pilots didn't get significant pay rises as it would go against their manifesto. Thus the 457s could be a done deal.
Last edited by Maisk Rotum; 30th May 2008 at 07:36.