Air Nelson ALPA pilots to strike
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The above post reads like a schoolyard bully, you're a few chapters behind with the "how to win friends and influence people ". Here's hoping the ALPA representatives in this case have a bit more diplomacy skills than yourself.
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Hey Q3000121
How deep is your head berried in the sand? Or is it up your- you know what. If you have been here a year and I assume you know how to read-don’t you!!! At an age of 41 I hope so. I am sure you know exactly what has been going on through some very very good correspondence from OUR ALPA reps. To say you are in the dark is an indictment on your self not our hard working negotiators.
As for working your tail off to get here LOL. Hell you must be the first person to have to do that. Everybody else just cruised into it –NOT. You need to break out of the mentality that you are prepared to do the job for nothing. You probably did plenty of that in your GA days.
To answer your question where has it got us? FACILITATION. Oh isn’t that happening today& tomorrow? Yes it is. Now that is a hugely positive step forward, if you are genuine in your posts wouldn’t you wait to see the outcome of that before raising your concerns???? I hope you apply far better logic to problem solving when flying. If not I am truly concerned for you and any body that flies with you.
How deep is your head berried in the sand? Or is it up your- you know what. If you have been here a year and I assume you know how to read-don’t you!!! At an age of 41 I hope so. I am sure you know exactly what has been going on through some very very good correspondence from OUR ALPA reps. To say you are in the dark is an indictment on your self not our hard working negotiators.
As for working your tail off to get here LOL. Hell you must be the first person to have to do that. Everybody else just cruised into it –NOT. You need to break out of the mentality that you are prepared to do the job for nothing. You probably did plenty of that in your GA days.
To answer your question where has it got us? FACILITATION. Oh isn’t that happening today& tomorrow? Yes it is. Now that is a hugely positive step forward, if you are genuine in your posts wouldn’t you wait to see the outcome of that before raising your concerns???? I hope you apply far better logic to problem solving when flying. If not I am truly concerned for you and any body that flies with you.
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Hmmm, Q300, just remember if it was not for alpa you would be earning about half of your current salary ( just ask any former origin F/O what it was like to have individual contracts ). Alpa is not perfect but thanks to the efforts of many, you can enjoy a half decent way of life at Air Nelson.
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Keep up the fight guys.
I heard something the other day about an Air NSN pilot who resigned from ALPA a couple of weeks ago in the middle of all of this. Is that person incredibly brave, incredibly stupid or incredibly weak? All three, I think.
Is the management making back-hand offers to people they perceive to be "on the fence" in the hope they'll resign from the union?
Like I said, keep up the fight guys and stick together. A couple of cliches spring to mind - short term pain, long term gain etc. Great job so far. Can't be long now. Stay strong. Kia kaha bro.
Bombay
I heard something the other day about an Air NSN pilot who resigned from ALPA a couple of weeks ago in the middle of all of this. Is that person incredibly brave, incredibly stupid or incredibly weak? All three, I think.
Is the management making back-hand offers to people they perceive to be "on the fence" in the hope they'll resign from the union?
Like I said, keep up the fight guys and stick together. A couple of cliches spring to mind - short term pain, long term gain etc. Great job so far. Can't be long now. Stay strong. Kia kaha bro.
Bombay
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Pool Boy,
if it was not for alpa you would be earning about half of your current salary ( just ask any former origin F/O what it was like to have individual contracts ).
Agreed. Individual contracts were some (most) of the reason why the Origin FOs got paid ****e and the Captains were paid reasonably (I say that hesitantly) for the size of the aeroplane. No collective approach/strength.
Of course, it was obviously a tactic to encourage pilots to hang around and since Origin was basically an entry-level regional carrier, it worked for the most part.
As far as NZ airlines are concerned, individual contracts are for fools. Anyone who thinks they can do better than a CEA is sadly mistaken.
Of course, ALPA does a lot of good work other than just CEA negotiations! These union/non-union arguements tend to forget that fact. That measly percentage of our pay does a lot more than just pay for negotiating strength.
Bombay
if it was not for alpa you would be earning about half of your current salary ( just ask any former origin F/O what it was like to have individual contracts ).
Agreed. Individual contracts were some (most) of the reason why the Origin FOs got paid ****e and the Captains were paid reasonably (I say that hesitantly) for the size of the aeroplane. No collective approach/strength.
Of course, it was obviously a tactic to encourage pilots to hang around and since Origin was basically an entry-level regional carrier, it worked for the most part.
As far as NZ airlines are concerned, individual contracts are for fools. Anyone who thinks they can do better than a CEA is sadly mistaken.
Of course, ALPA does a lot of good work other than just CEA negotiations! These union/non-union arguements tend to forget that fact. That measly percentage of our pay does a lot more than just pay for negotiating strength.
Bombay
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ALPA does a lot of good work?
Bombay
Could you fill us all in on all the good work ALPA does. Other than contract negs, the school yard bully rubbish in the previous posts and of course helping those old timers at the top feather their nests - what exactly do they do? MT
Could you fill us all in on all the good work ALPA does. Other than contract negs, the school yard bully rubbish in the previous posts and of course helping those old timers at the top feather their nests - what exactly do they do? MT
the school yard bully rubbish in the previous posts and of course helping those old timers at the top feather their nests
Care to expand?
I would have thought that contract negotiations on it's own was probably important enough.
Some of the other valuable services they provide are a bit like insurance. You hope you never need it but are very grateful to be able avail yourself of the help and support if you ever need it.
Then there's the MBF and the salary continuance schemes that they arrange, sure you pay to belong to these but you get something at a price you probably couldn't get elsewhere.
There needs to some organisation which can provide advocacy for pilots, something that we cannot do as individuals. ALPA may not be perfect and you may not agree with all the things they say or do, but there isn't anyone else there to provide a collective view point for pilots.
So I really wonder what the point of your post was.
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Aren't the majority of Feds (until recently) all old buggers on the B747 creaming it! Selling rostering rules which the company doesn't comply with anyway!!!! So they still get the ALPA rostering rules, which are more fatigue friendly.
ALPA provide a lot of support to the GA scene, are a check/balance to the regulators.
I for one was not convinced, coming from a farming background regarding unions, but it does the best it can dealing with a very agressive employer (for the majority).
With the current CAA method of operating a safety (blame/prosecution) culture it would seem we need the legal support of ALPA more than ever. When they say they don't operate a 'no blame culture', that flies in the face of most other major Aviation authorites in the world.
Hope the facilitated bargaining is helping to inch the negotiations forward. Keep up the huge efforts it will be worth it.
ALPA provide a lot of support to the GA scene, are a check/balance to the regulators.
I for one was not convinced, coming from a farming background regarding unions, but it does the best it can dealing with a very agressive employer (for the majority).
With the current CAA method of operating a safety (blame/prosecution) culture it would seem we need the legal support of ALPA more than ever. When they say they don't operate a 'no blame culture', that flies in the face of most other major Aviation authorites in the world.
Hope the facilitated bargaining is helping to inch the negotiations forward. Keep up the huge efforts it will be worth it.
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Hey MT
In Air Nelson the majority of Feds are on the top salary scales with the exception of the new FOs who were bullied into joining the feds during the strike action by a CEO who refused to show new hires ALPA contracts and then told them that if ALPA got their way they all would be made redundant.
ALPA and its parent association IALPA are very much involved in working for a safer flying environmant for all pilots. I never heard the Feds trying to promote a return to control towers at some of our provincial airfeilds such as Taupo. I am sure that even the Feds would agree that safety would be enhanced at Taupo with a controller. Unfortunately they are not prepared to front up with some of their hard bludged salaries to fight for it.
In Air Nelson the majority of Feds are on the top salary scales with the exception of the new FOs who were bullied into joining the feds during the strike action by a CEO who refused to show new hires ALPA contracts and then told them that if ALPA got their way they all would be made redundant.
ALPA and its parent association IALPA are very much involved in working for a safer flying environmant for all pilots. I never heard the Feds trying to promote a return to control towers at some of our provincial airfeilds such as Taupo. I am sure that even the Feds would agree that safety would be enhanced at Taupo with a controller. Unfortunately they are not prepared to front up with some of their hard bludged salaries to fight for it.
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With the Feds (and their low low subs) you get exactly what you pay for. ...effectively nothing. The only case I know of when a pilot asked the Feds for assistance, that pilot got none. They were told by the Feds "we agree with the company, tough luck, see you later".
Said pilot subsequently joined ALPA and despite the grievance being pre-existing, received a substantial amount of peer-support, although they were not eligible for ALPA legal assistance.
ALPA have a long history of assisting pilots in "trouble". There are some who may even be in prison now, but for the help of ALPA. That's why I pay my ALPA subs without complaint. I know that if I need help, I will get it.
I doubt members of the Federation can be quite so sure.
Said pilot subsequently joined ALPA and despite the grievance being pre-existing, received a substantial amount of peer-support, although they were not eligible for ALPA legal assistance.
ALPA have a long history of assisting pilots in "trouble". There are some who may even be in prison now, but for the help of ALPA. That's why I pay my ALPA subs without complaint. I know that if I need help, I will get it.
I doubt members of the Federation can be quite so sure.
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Fed = Scab...
A SCAB as Always Inverted so inteligently uses the term (?) is someone who crosses a picket line -YES? So when have the Feds crossed the picket line? You see you ALPA guys aint ever gone so far as to form a picket line which frankly is what needs to be done to gain some attention. (Strikes to date have had no impact) Is there an issue of courage here? Dont want Mum to see me on the TV or is it that I dont really believe that strongly in the cause but are going along with it any way so my mates who frankly couldnt care less about me dont get upset with me and call me names. And if they did call me names I would have to run off to my Mum but she isnt talking to me as I was on a picket line and she didnt raise me to be a coal miner etc etc etc. And before the likes of Always Inverted (which translates to around the wrong way or just plain wired wrong) burst into low IQ rebuttle I am not a Fed or Management or a passenger or a GA pilot or any of those easy targets the likes of AI like to take to task on this forum. How about an educated response to my question - just for a change? When have the Feds crossed the picket line and what right do you guys have to call the Feds SCABS? MT
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My Turn,
The original Feds broke away from ALPA and signed up to a contract during Air NZ negotiations 1990/1991.
The new toy (747 400) was dangled infront of them and they went and sharted on their mates. The seniority system went out the window for the 744, for a period of time. Those who signed up jumped the que. They were the sc@bs. Those who join the fed now are subscribing to those philosophies.
One 74 capt i spoke to recently who did not cross to the Fed side reckons it cost him about NZ$400,000. I bet plenty of you are thinking, "what a dummy, why not just go for it"?
Well, there is that little thing called ethics. Belief in a system that works and a system that is fair, namely the seniority system. It is an aristocracy not a meritocracy and airline managements hate it as much as they like it. But it works and is fair.
More importantly, why poop on your colleagues? Just to fly a bigger plane? For a few more bucks? Hell! Your turn will come soon enough. And shortly after it does you will be as bored as you were in the cruise on that last thing you were driving. If you want more money go climb a corporate ladder.
In the mean time, the union, which is the collective of all its members, not just those who are doing all the graft and looking out for your interests, has some muscle. Muscle to tell the company, no we dont want to fly 40 hours in 7 days, no we wont stay in the hotel next to the motorway when we get in to town at 3 am and woken a few hours later... etc, etc.
I guess its all about standards and trying to keep them as high as possible for the betterment of us all, pilots, our families, and even the company for which you work.
Hope to have enlightened
The original Feds broke away from ALPA and signed up to a contract during Air NZ negotiations 1990/1991.
The new toy (747 400) was dangled infront of them and they went and sharted on their mates. The seniority system went out the window for the 744, for a period of time. Those who signed up jumped the que. They were the sc@bs. Those who join the fed now are subscribing to those philosophies.
One 74 capt i spoke to recently who did not cross to the Fed side reckons it cost him about NZ$400,000. I bet plenty of you are thinking, "what a dummy, why not just go for it"?
Well, there is that little thing called ethics. Belief in a system that works and a system that is fair, namely the seniority system. It is an aristocracy not a meritocracy and airline managements hate it as much as they like it. But it works and is fair.
More importantly, why poop on your colleagues? Just to fly a bigger plane? For a few more bucks? Hell! Your turn will come soon enough. And shortly after it does you will be as bored as you were in the cruise on that last thing you were driving. If you want more money go climb a corporate ladder.
In the mean time, the union, which is the collective of all its members, not just those who are doing all the graft and looking out for your interests, has some muscle. Muscle to tell the company, no we dont want to fly 40 hours in 7 days, no we wont stay in the hotel next to the motorway when we get in to town at 3 am and woken a few hours later... etc, etc.
I guess its all about standards and trying to keep them as high as possible for the betterment of us all, pilots, our families, and even the company for which you work.
Hope to have enlightened
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My Turn,
There's more to this business than just contract negotiations. Similarly, there are dozens more reasons that people chose to join ALPA than just negotiation strength.
For example, IFALPA and the regional factions (NZALPA for example) do a phenomenal amount of work in safety, providing a strong voice and expertise on a variety of matters. Left to the regulators and bean counters, the industry would be less safe than it is. More corners would be cut.
I'm not suggesting ALPA do it all but they certainly play a big part. Like any organisation of people, not everyone agrees with everything and neither should they. It's perfectly reasonable to challenge an ALPA position if you disagree with it but not in a manner that weakens the strength of the union.
Remember: ALPA is not some mythical group of people in AKL. The members ARE the union.
There's more to this business than just contract negotiations. Similarly, there are dozens more reasons that people chose to join ALPA than just negotiation strength.
For example, IFALPA and the regional factions (NZALPA for example) do a phenomenal amount of work in safety, providing a strong voice and expertise on a variety of matters. Left to the regulators and bean counters, the industry would be less safe than it is. More corners would be cut.
I'm not suggesting ALPA do it all but they certainly play a big part. Like any organisation of people, not everyone agrees with everything and neither should they. It's perfectly reasonable to challenge an ALPA position if you disagree with it but not in a manner that weakens the strength of the union.
Remember: ALPA is not some mythical group of people in AKL. The members ARE the union.
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Goodspeed and Bombay, well said.
Always inverted, while it grates me to point this out myturn is correct. While the term scab seems to get used quite frequently to describe federation pilots, unless they crossed a picket line (and I would veiw the situation in 1990 as a sort of invisable picket line by the way) thet are technically not scabs as such.
Myturn, I do however have a term that I use for those of you that display the sort of attitude you seem to be displaying here.
Parasite.
Always inverted, while it grates me to point this out myturn is correct. While the term scab seems to get used quite frequently to describe federation pilots, unless they crossed a picket line (and I would veiw the situation in 1990 as a sort of invisable picket line by the way) thet are technically not scabs as such.
Myturn, I do however have a term that I use for those of you that display the sort of attitude you seem to be displaying here.
Parasite.
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Ah myturn... Need I say more. Specificly no picket line, but taking lower conditions for less money till the real union gets theirs sorted then jumps in and gets the same for no cost. Underselling your workmates for less, read the 747...
As for your comment about being wired backwards, you are soooo far from the truth.
The fed pilots would probably take whatever the company offered, which would be less and less each time the contract came up if the alpa union were not there to try and retain the apropriate pay that reflects what we do.
So if you are not a fed, mngmnt, ga or a pax, then what are you and what do you know about the aviation industry, if you are an alpa member you should have your membership revoked for being 2 faced, ah you must be in parliment.
As for the low IQ'd response, I really cant be arsed wasting my breath.
I do quite like the term that Split Flap uses, parasite... Sounds like I have a higher IQ if I use words like parasite rather than scab eh myturn.
By the way, what is it your turn for ?
But it's all smoke and mirrors isnt it...
As for your comment about being wired backwards, you are soooo far from the truth.
The fed pilots would probably take whatever the company offered, which would be less and less each time the contract came up if the alpa union were not there to try and retain the apropriate pay that reflects what we do.
So if you are not a fed, mngmnt, ga or a pax, then what are you and what do you know about the aviation industry, if you are an alpa member you should have your membership revoked for being 2 faced, ah you must be in parliment.
As for the low IQ'd response, I really cant be arsed wasting my breath.
I do quite like the term that Split Flap uses, parasite... Sounds like I have a higher IQ if I use words like parasite rather than scab eh myturn.
By the way, what is it your turn for ?
But it's all smoke and mirrors isnt it...