HyperMerged: Q Engineering LAME EBA VIII/Industrial Strategies
Join Date: Dec 2007
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^ to cancel an EBA, I believe they have to show that we are not discussing in good faith, in front of the commission. Something that would be very difficult if everyone acts professionally and does what they are meant to do.
Stay strong and supported, keep in touch with your (EBA if possible) reps and work smart!
If anything it would be us that could take the company to task on the 'good faith' issue.
Stay strong and supported, keep in touch with your (EBA if possible) reps and work smart!
If anything it would be us that could take the company to task on the 'good faith' issue.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Panther and What
In reply to your posts the onus is on the ALAEA to prove that Termination of the EBA is not in the public interest, there is already a precedent that the AIRC "must" terminate the EBA at the request of either party.
In light of this, all i am doing is asking the logical question, do we have the potential to loose redundancy provision which for some could be anywhere between 50K to 200K (example more or less) for the sake of 2%, yes it sucks.
So some of us are betting 75K to win 4K, if i was a bookie i would be taking all bets.
This is not about hart or anything else, not about being spineless but having a clear understanding of where this could go, yes we have protected action , but that does not stop QF from terminating the EBA, that is fact.
You can all have a go at me, however as a collective highly skiiled workforce we have to make daily analytical decisions in the execution of our jobs, if we get those wrong or make mistakes the consequences can be irreversable.
Why am i being castigated for applying the same priciples to this situation?
In reply to your posts the onus is on the ALAEA to prove that Termination of the EBA is not in the public interest, there is already a precedent that the AIRC "must" terminate the EBA at the request of either party.
In light of this, all i am doing is asking the logical question, do we have the potential to loose redundancy provision which for some could be anywhere between 50K to 200K (example more or less) for the sake of 2%, yes it sucks.
So some of us are betting 75K to win 4K, if i was a bookie i would be taking all bets.
This is not about hart or anything else, not about being spineless but having a clear understanding of where this could go, yes we have protected action , but that does not stop QF from terminating the EBA, that is fact.
You can all have a go at me, however as a collective highly skiiled workforce we have to make daily analytical decisions in the execution of our jobs, if we get those wrong or make mistakes the consequences can be irreversable.
Why am i being castigated for applying the same priciples to this situation?
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The last few posts are spot on - well done there gents.
Remember, this is LEGAL action we are taking to further our EBA claim.
Qantas are worried where all this is going to go because Dicko's mates are not running the show in Canberra. Workchoices will be wound down in due time and Qantas want mileage from it.
This dispute is not just about money. Qantas is prepared to spend alot of money reigning in LAMEs. Think the Perth debacle.
How much easier would it be to give LAMEs a 5% aggregate (3% + sweetners) increase. Not much at all.
This should sum up what this airline really thinks of you.
Remember, this is LEGAL action we are taking to further our EBA claim.
Qantas are worried where all this is going to go because Dicko's mates are not running the show in Canberra. Workchoices will be wound down in due time and Qantas want mileage from it.
This dispute is not just about money. Qantas is prepared to spend alot of money reigning in LAMEs. Think the Perth debacle.
How much easier would it be to give LAMEs a 5% aggregate (3% + sweetners) increase. Not much at all.
This should sum up what this airline really thinks of you.
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Take example from the LAMEs in Perth and the Nurses
Its protected action! [SIZE="3"] The action is designed not to harm us but to expose Managements poor management. Some people here have had no spine for so long there is no spot to put it. Is it constantly expected for the new Qantas LAME's to prop up conditions for the old jelly backs that they don't want to defend for others and didn't earn for themselves but are happy to grab at the expense of others! Take a look at what happened with former Ansett employees and the industry with that mindset, would you like to be exposed and taken advantage of like that due to selfishness of others creating discriminatory pay systems. We finally have an Exec that that will not allow selfish pricks to screw the defenseless.The action is designed to not put you at risk, it is the 29th, its the Christmas period, we have not taken action yet for a reason, the company is trying to stir us to strike, we won't! Those who aren't please relax and stop airing your shyte on forums for all to see. Stop work meetings are not stikes! If anyone is stooddown for not doing these forms of industrial action lodged to and accepted by the AIRC its not the end of the world for us. But four hours not signing aircraft will cause them a heap of pain and show what we have been covering for them for so long!
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I do believe the reps should talk to the guys one on one, during the ballot everyone was gung ho, now they see the company will not cave in easly and this action might cost them something they are getting nervous
so take stock and try to sort it out on the 4th,because united we stand divided we beg
So some of us are betting 75K to win 4K, if i was a bookie i would be taking all bets.
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^^ Also remember that us old goats, you love to bag for all your problems, are betting $200K plus, not for the pay rise of 4K but for not loosing T&C's we have fought for in the past.
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Ruderless, respectfully you are missing the point,
The point is if no agreement is reached QF can terminate the EBA, in fact QF do not even have to meet with the ALAEA on the 4th to seek termination of the EBA.
The fact that we have been approved Protected action it is not the point the company can terminate the EBA at any time and then we have to individualy negotiate. I was not aware of this before but there is a clear precedent of this happening.
I dont not agree with this but it is fact and i want facts. Not sure how much clearer i can be.
Please read posts by ALPINE57,
The point is if no agreement is reached QF can terminate the EBA, in fact QF do not even have to meet with the ALAEA on the 4th to seek termination of the EBA.
The fact that we have been approved Protected action it is not the point the company can terminate the EBA at any time and then we have to individualy negotiate. I was not aware of this before but there is a clear precedent of this happening.
I dont not agree with this but it is fact and i want facts. Not sure how much clearer i can be.
Please read posts by ALPINE57,
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Protected Industrial Action
What is protected industrial action?
Protected industrial action means that during enterprise bargaining, union members may legally take action.
If you do take action, it is against the law for Qantas to threaten you, sack you, victimise you, treat you worse than people who didn’t take action, or sue either yourself or the Union office for any losses the company incurs.
Industrial action includes taking action like stopwork meetings, bans, limitations or restrictions on the performance of work (work to rule), go on strike.
Does this mean we can take industrial action at any time in the bargaining period?
No, for industrial action to be protected during a bargaining period the Union office on your behalf must take certain steps including giving Qantas at least 3 working days written notice of our intention to take action by stating what action we intend to take and when it will begin.
Are you protected from threatening behaviour or intimidation by management?
In law, yes you are protected. However, it is pretty common for managers to threaten all sorts of things when it comes to the crunch.
In other workplaces where unionists have taken action, managers have been known to use tactics like:
Tick off people’s names as they walk out the door to take action.
Spread rumours that there is a scab workforce waiting in the wings to do your work or that other workplaces are not taking action – that it is only you!
Spread rumours that anybody taking action will get the sack.
Threaten that work will be taken away – maybe contracted out if unionists take action or that people will be put on lesser conditions when they return to work.
Try and guilt trip people by telling them that the company will be irreversibly damaged if staff take action – or that industrial action is unfair on the customers.
Subtly suggest that their career prospects will be affected.
The company will try many tactics to stop you taking action - but in the end you can only be divided if you let them.
Protected industrial action means that during enterprise bargaining, union members may legally take action.
If you do take action, it is against the law for Qantas to threaten you, sack you, victimise you, treat you worse than people who didn’t take action, or sue either yourself or the Union office for any losses the company incurs.
Industrial action includes taking action like stopwork meetings, bans, limitations or restrictions on the performance of work (work to rule), go on strike.
Does this mean we can take industrial action at any time in the bargaining period?
No, for industrial action to be protected during a bargaining period the Union office on your behalf must take certain steps including giving Qantas at least 3 working days written notice of our intention to take action by stating what action we intend to take and when it will begin.
Are you protected from threatening behaviour or intimidation by management?
In law, yes you are protected. However, it is pretty common for managers to threaten all sorts of things when it comes to the crunch.
In other workplaces where unionists have taken action, managers have been known to use tactics like:
Tick off people’s names as they walk out the door to take action.
Spread rumours that there is a scab workforce waiting in the wings to do your work or that other workplaces are not taking action – that it is only you!
Spread rumours that anybody taking action will get the sack.
Threaten that work will be taken away – maybe contracted out if unionists take action or that people will be put on lesser conditions when they return to work.
Try and guilt trip people by telling them that the company will be irreversibly damaged if staff take action – or that industrial action is unfair on the customers.
Subtly suggest that their career prospects will be affected.
The company will try many tactics to stop you taking action - but in the end you can only be divided if you let them.
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Yes they do want a fight...I have been told this personally by one of the henchmen who is advising management.
"LAME's arent owed #@$%" is pretty much verbatim from said henchman.
Unfortunately back in BD's day he said "you cant put a cost figure on morale"..sure I agree as no one can count to infinity.
LAME's regardless of the end result you now know the contempt that this current QF managementhave for you all. This isnt meant to be inflammatory, just a fact. This is about ego's as much as money.
If this battle doesnt go so well then take heart, there is now a war between staff at QF and this current management. All staff should start hitting this lot where it hurts and thats in KPI's. Dot your I's and cross your T's and all will be well. The shareholder will ask for account when KPI's are not being met. Unfortunately this management has left you no other alterative than to bleed them white rather than work cooperatively with them.
To add also that said henchman has stated quite loudly to all that they will shoot first (stand down people, 4hours pay etc) and sort it out in court later. Thats some morality for you on display at QF.
So take heart LAME's, you are exposing the real intent of QF toward engineering and their employees in general. Personally I dont care for the dog eat dog attitude be it either by management or LAME v LAME. This current management bleed and crap like the rest of humanity so just what gives them the right to treat normal people like you all as dispensable commodities that need a good belting to be shown who is the boss?
If not for you then for your kids and their future and the future of the LAME. Be strong, you WILL win in the end.
"LAME's arent owed #@$%" is pretty much verbatim from said henchman.
Unfortunately back in BD's day he said "you cant put a cost figure on morale"..sure I agree as no one can count to infinity.
LAME's regardless of the end result you now know the contempt that this current QF managementhave for you all. This isnt meant to be inflammatory, just a fact. This is about ego's as much as money.
If this battle doesnt go so well then take heart, there is now a war between staff at QF and this current management. All staff should start hitting this lot where it hurts and thats in KPI's. Dot your I's and cross your T's and all will be well. The shareholder will ask for account when KPI's are not being met. Unfortunately this management has left you no other alterative than to bleed them white rather than work cooperatively with them.
To add also that said henchman has stated quite loudly to all that they will shoot first (stand down people, 4hours pay etc) and sort it out in court later. Thats some morality for you on display at QF.
So take heart LAME's, you are exposing the real intent of QF toward engineering and their employees in general. Personally I dont care for the dog eat dog attitude be it either by management or LAME v LAME. This current management bleed and crap like the rest of humanity so just what gives them the right to treat normal people like you all as dispensable commodities that need a good belting to be shown who is the boss?
If not for you then for your kids and their future and the future of the LAME. Be strong, you WILL win in the end.
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wingers
I have just come on today and saw your posts.
QF can move to terminate your EBA at any time, now that it has nominally expired. The AIRC MUST terminate the EBA upon QF application and after hearing the arguments, UNLESS there are public interest reasons not do so.
Of course the interests of LAME's are not the interests of the public. Termination is an effective pressure tactic that QF could use, and i'm sure it is 1 of their options they would be considering now.
The effect of a termination is that your conditions would fall back to any underlying Award that you might have. That underlying Award would have to be a "simplified" Award and therefore would not contain a lot of important matter currently contained in your expired EBA. The AWARD WOULD ALSO CONTAIN LESSER PAY RATES, FOR EXAMPLE, COMPARED TO YOUR EXPIRED EBA.
In relation to redundancy matters, if an EBA is terminated ,current redundancy arrangements live on for a further 1 year post termination . You would also need to check if your underlying Award contains your existing EBA redundancy provisions.
I note a primary conflict point is the wage rise. I may be proved wrong, however, you guys need to realise that QF will do what is necessary to ensure no wages breakout occurs and therefore it will defend any attempt to get a wage increase beyond 3% pa. I hope you don't risk all attempting to break that 3% barrier. That would be a tragedy for all of you.
Of course, i understand you have other very important matters that do need to be addressed and these should be addressed.
Your leadership is very decent, but they are relatively inexperienced. They need to be very wary not to take you all to a very bad spot.
QF is ruthless, i'm sure i don't need to tell you that.
On a final note, i see some in here are very confused as to what constitutes industrial action. The Act, defines industrial action very broadly. "Stop work" meetings are exactly the same as strikes if, people who are meant to work , turn up to a "stop work " meeting instead. Also, "work to rule" is industrial action.
I am assuming your union leadership understand these principles.
Good luck to you all.
QF can move to terminate your EBA at any time, now that it has nominally expired. The AIRC MUST terminate the EBA upon QF application and after hearing the arguments, UNLESS there are public interest reasons not do so.
Of course the interests of LAME's are not the interests of the public. Termination is an effective pressure tactic that QF could use, and i'm sure it is 1 of their options they would be considering now.
The effect of a termination is that your conditions would fall back to any underlying Award that you might have. That underlying Award would have to be a "simplified" Award and therefore would not contain a lot of important matter currently contained in your expired EBA. The AWARD WOULD ALSO CONTAIN LESSER PAY RATES, FOR EXAMPLE, COMPARED TO YOUR EXPIRED EBA.
In relation to redundancy matters, if an EBA is terminated ,current redundancy arrangements live on for a further 1 year post termination . You would also need to check if your underlying Award contains your existing EBA redundancy provisions.
I note a primary conflict point is the wage rise. I may be proved wrong, however, you guys need to realise that QF will do what is necessary to ensure no wages breakout occurs and therefore it will defend any attempt to get a wage increase beyond 3% pa. I hope you don't risk all attempting to break that 3% barrier. That would be a tragedy for all of you.
Of course, i understand you have other very important matters that do need to be addressed and these should be addressed.
Your leadership is very decent, but they are relatively inexperienced. They need to be very wary not to take you all to a very bad spot.
QF is ruthless, i'm sure i don't need to tell you that.
On a final note, i see some in here are very confused as to what constitutes industrial action. The Act, defines industrial action very broadly. "Stop work" meetings are exactly the same as strikes if, people who are meant to work , turn up to a "stop work " meeting instead. Also, "work to rule" is industrial action.
I am assuming your union leadership understand these principles.
Good luck to you all.
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Death by a thousand cuts is my perferred method
I see people falling over them selfs to get on the sydney critical overtime crew twice every 5 days off,these are the same people that say we must show the company we mean business.Could you imagine if nobody wanted to do the critical crew how management would feel, No action no bans just no interest. when people threaten me I do not give in I fight Back. the company will act the same way.withdraw the threats and treat the company the same way they treat you, laws of kama they dont give a toss about you you treat them the same way
why fight them in a conventional way they have deep pockets I have a morgage and kids to feed, If they break us its all over red rover
I see people falling over them selfs to get on the sydney critical overtime crew twice every 5 days off,these are the same people that say we must show the company we mean business.Could you imagine if nobody wanted to do the critical crew how management would feel, No action no bans just no interest. when people threaten me I do not give in I fight Back. the company will act the same way.withdraw the threats and treat the company the same way they treat you, laws of kama they dont give a toss about you you treat them the same way
why fight them in a conventional way they have deep pockets I have a morgage and kids to feed, If they break us its all over red rover
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ALPINE57 - Thanks
Alpine57 appreciate the clarity, i did not know work to rule was considered industrial action, do you have examples.
You have clarified a great deal, one question, if the EBA is terminated and reverts to award are you saying that i would have to keep working for the next year at lower wages in order to safeguard my Rendundancy.
Thanks again.
You have clarified a great deal, one question, if the EBA is terminated and reverts to award are you saying that i would have to keep working for the next year at lower wages in order to safeguard my Rendundancy.
Thanks again.
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Workplace Relations Act 1996
Alpine is right in some of what he says but maybe not in others.
You can view the workplace relations act on the internet for free.
It's a big document but use the index to just look at relevant stuff
ie;
PART 420= Meaning of industrial action.
PART 448= Employer not to dismiss employee.......
Obviously "work to rule" is NOT listed as industrial action. Infact you can be sacked if you do not work to rule all the time/ any time. We are paid to work to the rules.
You can view the workplace relations act on the internet for free.
It's a big document but use the index to just look at relevant stuff
ie;
PART 420= Meaning of industrial action.
PART 448= Employer not to dismiss employee.......
Obviously "work to rule" is NOT listed as industrial action. Infact you can be sacked if you do not work to rule all the time/ any time. We are paid to work to the rules.
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Wingers,
I suggest if you are really that ill informed on IR legislation then I suggest you use your internet skills to carry out what is known as 'competitive intelligence or are you indeed what is termed an "agent provecteur' (sorry about the spelling) yourself.
I suggest if you are really that ill informed on IR legislation then I suggest you use your internet skills to carry out what is known as 'competitive intelligence or are you indeed what is termed an "agent provecteur' (sorry about the spelling) yourself.
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alpine57
Also, "work to rule" is industrial action.
Also, "work to rule" is industrial action.
You are working IAW With the manufacturer's approved reference data or the red rats QPM.I must add that these are all approved by CASA so you are not doing anything wrong.You are just doing your job.
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QF can move to terminate your EBA at any time, now that it has nominally expired. The AIRC MUST terminate the EBA upon QF application and after hearing the arguments, UNLESS there are public interest reasons not do so.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
P.S. Looks like you LAME's have backed DC into a corner. Watch out for the claws coming out.
Last edited by Short_Circuit; 29th Dec 2007 at 02:03.
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Everybody relax, don't let idle threats scare you into breaking ranks.
We haven't and wont be doing anything against the law.
Our Association leaders will not let us fall into any traps. I am sure they are checking and double checking all their plans and keeping lots of aces up their sleeves.
Keep the faith strong and stick together. Don't post fear in your threads as this only gives them (QF management scum) more power to use against us.
All these threats that we are hearing filtering down from management tells me one important thing. These mugs are starting to sweat bigtime.
Hold fast and work hard. Keep doing your job the best you can using all the correct procedures and at the end of the day you can stand proud next to me and all others who want a fair go.
This is our Kokoda Trail men. keep treading hard.........
We haven't and wont be doing anything against the law.
Our Association leaders will not let us fall into any traps. I am sure they are checking and double checking all their plans and keeping lots of aces up their sleeves.
Keep the faith strong and stick together. Don't post fear in your threads as this only gives them (QF management scum) more power to use against us.
All these threats that we are hearing filtering down from management tells me one important thing. These mugs are starting to sweat bigtime.
Hold fast and work hard. Keep doing your job the best you can using all the correct procedures and at the end of the day you can stand proud next to me and all others who want a fair go.
This is our Kokoda Trail men. keep treading hard.........
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AUD 152 MILLION fighting fund
Can't wait for the next Profit Forecast announcement, may go something like this;
Due to the unprecedented arrogance of Senior QF Management, it is regrettable I must downgrade the 2007 - 2008 profit forecast to somewhere south of 1 Billion dollars.
Due to increasing negligence of our Senior Staff, we will pay from shareholders profits, $61,000,000 in fines to the US for illegal price fixing in our cargo operation,
$152,000,000 paid to temporary scab labour to save face of the Senior Staff during the LAME EBA negotiations, yet to be calculated “Hundreds of Millions of dollars”
due to atrophy of Management paid for Offshore Heavy Maintenance of the wide body fleet due to the ludicrous closure of the 2 Sydney Maintenance facilities.
Instead of negotiating in good faith, we have lied & cheated so as to demoralise the loyal work force in Engineering, Flight Ops & Cabin Crewing and save a few
dollars to line our own pockets in the event we are held accountable for our inadequate management skills. We are also proud to announce that as we move maintenance offshore, we are in a position to provide contingency for another 3 hull losses over and above the one we previously allowed for in the coming 10 years. Without the outsourcing of maintenance, we would not be able to fund this action. (cough)..
Blah blah blah
Due to the unprecedented arrogance of Senior QF Management, it is regrettable I must downgrade the 2007 - 2008 profit forecast to somewhere south of 1 Billion dollars.
Due to increasing negligence of our Senior Staff, we will pay from shareholders profits, $61,000,000 in fines to the US for illegal price fixing in our cargo operation,
$152,000,000 paid to temporary scab labour to save face of the Senior Staff during the LAME EBA negotiations, yet to be calculated “Hundreds of Millions of dollars”
due to atrophy of Management paid for Offshore Heavy Maintenance of the wide body fleet due to the ludicrous closure of the 2 Sydney Maintenance facilities.
Instead of negotiating in good faith, we have lied & cheated so as to demoralise the loyal work force in Engineering, Flight Ops & Cabin Crewing and save a few
dollars to line our own pockets in the event we are held accountable for our inadequate management skills. We are also proud to announce that as we move maintenance offshore, we are in a position to provide contingency for another 3 hull losses over and above the one we previously allowed for in the coming 10 years. Without the outsourcing of maintenance, we would not be able to fund this action. (cough)..
Blah blah blah
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wingers
wingers if your EBA is terminated, i'm saying that your redundancy formula , which i assume is the common entitlement that most QF unions have (3 wks for each year up to the first 5 yrs of service and then 4 weeks per yr for each year therafter), would only legally continue for 1 year following any termination of your existing EBA, unless it is also in your underlying Award.
However, i'm assuming you guys would reach a new EBA agreement, within a year, if QF moved to terminate your expired EBA.
QF could also intervene in the AIRC, to ask that your bargaining period be terminated on the grounds that any proposed industrial action might damage a "significant part of the Australian economy". If they succeeeded with that action you would not be able to undertake any legally protected industrial action.
The Act allows an employer many ways to deal with a union...none of which are fair to employees, but of course the Law was enacted not to be fair to employees after all.
I think you will shortly see what the QF strategy will be against you guys. I think if the situation turns nasty they will resort to the alternatives i have outlined:-
1) termination of the EBA
2) TERMINATION OF THE BARGAINING PERIOD
3) A LOCKOUT TO TEST YOUR RESOLVE
Again, good luck to you all...... other QF unions are obviously closely watching developments.
However, i'm assuming you guys would reach a new EBA agreement, within a year, if QF moved to terminate your expired EBA.
QF could also intervene in the AIRC, to ask that your bargaining period be terminated on the grounds that any proposed industrial action might damage a "significant part of the Australian economy". If they succeeeded with that action you would not be able to undertake any legally protected industrial action.
The Act allows an employer many ways to deal with a union...none of which are fair to employees, but of course the Law was enacted not to be fair to employees after all.
I think you will shortly see what the QF strategy will be against you guys. I think if the situation turns nasty they will resort to the alternatives i have outlined:-
1) termination of the EBA
2) TERMINATION OF THE BARGAINING PERIOD
3) A LOCKOUT TO TEST YOUR RESOLVE
Again, good luck to you all...... other QF unions are obviously closely watching developments.