Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
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The B Scale that the FAAA has agreed to really doesn't surprise me. As if current cabin crew give a "rats" about what pay and conditions future joiners will be on.
It's all about "me, me ,me"! What's in it for me!
It's all about "me, me ,me"! What's in it for me!
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Can we please put some perspective on the moral high ground debate.
Long Haul crew currenty work along side crew from Auckland who work 240 hours a roster for about 25K, the Bangkok crew get about 10K plus meal allowances.
These have been the areas of growth for qantas. The new B scale will mean new recruits will gross about 55K pa. I would have thought that although not as much as current crew for historical reasons; a decent wage for a full time job in Australia.
These people will have opportunity for promotions and get decent Qantas conditions too. New CSM rate is 70K plus allowances, hardly something to sneeze at and better than jetstar csm (46K)
I think that the majority of crew who authorsied the union to negotiate a new entry rate , would appreciate the challenges of maintaining work inn australia as opposed to more jobs overseas.
These will be good quality Australian jobs, i would gladly let my kids apply for these jobs and am glad they are here in OZ
Long Haul crew currenty work along side crew from Auckland who work 240 hours a roster for about 25K, the Bangkok crew get about 10K plus meal allowances.
These have been the areas of growth for qantas. The new B scale will mean new recruits will gross about 55K pa. I would have thought that although not as much as current crew for historical reasons; a decent wage for a full time job in Australia.
These people will have opportunity for promotions and get decent Qantas conditions too. New CSM rate is 70K plus allowances, hardly something to sneeze at and better than jetstar csm (46K)
I think that the majority of crew who authorsied the union to negotiate a new entry rate , would appreciate the challenges of maintaining work inn australia as opposed to more jobs overseas.
These will be good quality Australian jobs, i would gladly let my kids apply for these jobs and am glad they are here in OZ
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Just a question
Pegasus
I'm just wondering will the casuals (MAM) be able to afford to take the new jobs at long haul ? I mean they (MAM) are very well paid and I'm sure I read on the other thread that the new salaries were the same as Jetstar which is about 32K, with a week more annual leave and 5 days more sick leave + overtime, i would think that the current C MAMs earn more than that now..
Seriously just a question not a criticism
Its ok, I've just read the other thread and the new posts gave me my answer, 55K for new LH recruits. I'm pretty sure its a pay cut for MAM C's but a full time job.......
I'm just wondering will the casuals (MAM) be able to afford to take the new jobs at long haul ? I mean they (MAM) are very well paid and I'm sure I read on the other thread that the new salaries were the same as Jetstar which is about 32K, with a week more annual leave and 5 days more sick leave + overtime, i would think that the current C MAMs earn more than that now..
Seriously just a question not a criticism
Its ok, I've just read the other thread and the new posts gave me my answer, 55K for new LH recruits. I'm pretty sure its a pay cut for MAM C's but a full time job.......
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well i think that if they want to stay working casual thats a choice for them. MAM is just a labour hire company, they dont get 6 weeks annual leave, they dont get 15 days sick leave, they dont get cash meal allowances or qantas staff travel benefits.
To earn the money that they get i understand many are only getting 5-6 days off a month and working 140 to 160 hours a month to make a good income. They are only guaranteed 80 hours a month which is not enough for many to live on i understand.
If they want a full time job with a future and promotion they will at least be able to do it in Australia now
To earn the money that they get i understand many are only getting 5-6 days off a month and working 140 to 160 hours a month to make a good income. They are only guaranteed 80 hours a month which is not enough for many to live on i understand.
If they want a full time job with a future and promotion they will at least be able to do it in Australia now
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If Long haul crew will be crewing 75% of the regional flying (and currently only crew 30%), then a huge amount of flying will be removed from the short haul division.
Short haul have in recent times, also been managing a surplus, with lots of crew currently on LWOP. With a forecast huge reduction in flying, it will be interesting to see the effect on MAM.
Will MAM casuals be the first to be offered these 'low paid' full time long haul positions? Also does Maurice Alexander have a roll in Qantas' new FA hire company? Or has he been cut out in the race to the bottom?
Short haul have in recent times, also been managing a surplus, with lots of crew currently on LWOP. With a forecast huge reduction in flying, it will be interesting to see the effect on MAM.
Will MAM casuals be the first to be offered these 'low paid' full time long haul positions? Also does Maurice Alexander have a roll in Qantas' new FA hire company? Or has he been cut out in the race to the bottom?
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i can only speculate but i would imagine that many mam flight attendants would like a full time job.
the new conditions are quite good for a young person
about 35K base salary
overtime
cash meal allowances
daily travellinng allowance
6 weeks annual leave
15 days sick leave
staff travel benefits
promotional opportunities
access to A380 and promotions
Min 18 days of a roster period
Significantly better that the overseas base conditions and a job in Australia ..its actually quite exciting to think that 2000 new australian full time jobs in the next couple of years.
Massive promotional opportunities and new aircraft with new destinations too
the new conditions are quite good for a young person
about 35K base salary
overtime
cash meal allowances
daily travellinng allowance
6 weeks annual leave
15 days sick leave
staff travel benefits
promotional opportunities
access to A380 and promotions
Min 18 days of a roster period
Significantly better that the overseas base conditions and a job in Australia ..its actually quite exciting to think that 2000 new australian full time jobs in the next couple of years.
Massive promotional opportunities and new aircraft with new destinations too
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But that's just it. These guys aren't employed in NZ, Thailand or the UK. These people will be Australian based Mainline Long Haul Cabin Crew. It doesn't matter if the conditions are "quite good for a young person." They are different conditions to the current Australian staff.
I can just imagine the uproar if the Company offered existing guys 30% more work for same/less pay.
It is a B scale for Australian Mainline Long Haul CC, and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew, and that's why it will get up by a massive majority come vote time!
It may come back to bite you guys in the bum though in the future.
It's all about me, me ,me !!!!!!
(And don't worry, as Keg said Tech Crew are no different. Past history shows that!)
I can just imagine the uproar if the Company offered existing guys 30% more work for same/less pay.
It is a B scale for Australian Mainline Long Haul CC, and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew, and that's why it will get up by a massive majority come vote time!
It may come back to bite you guys in the bum though in the future.
It's all about me, me ,me !!!!!!
(And don't worry, as Keg said Tech Crew are no different. Past history shows that!)
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Scotty Doo……This is the D & G section which if you look at the PPrune definition say’s…
“Dunnunda & Godzone
An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.”
Scotty I think you should be able to understand that pilots are not the only people that work in aviation….Next time you go to work look around …….
Funbags….The problem with trying to negotiate this EBA is that L/H were white anted by S/H.They offered to do our flying for far less.The S/H union even shares office space with the company that provides cheap casual crew.
Add to that the company setting up bases in AKL,BKK and LHR which with the exception of the LHR crew do the same flights with Australian based cabin Crew for far less money.So we already have two different crew operating on the same aircraft for different pay and conditions which in effect is an ‘A’ and a ‘B’ scale.
I noticed that the tech crew did not object or support Australian Cabin Crew when the company set up these off shore bases whose only purpose was to drive down the T & C’s of Australian based crew.The tech crew did not object when the company insisted that L/H cabin crew operate LAX/JFK/LAX when the tech crew did not.
The tech crew don’t even support each other.Whether that is the 400 crew with the 767 crew or airbus crew and I won’t even bother mentioning the J* crew relations with mainline.
I suspect then that your concern is not really for cabin crew of the future but for the ramifications to your award.
If the tech crew union had allowed the impulse pilots years ago to join then maybe you wouldn’t have the problem you face with J* pay and conditions threatening your own now which is in effect a ‘B’ scale.
However,if you are not happy with what the FAAA has negotiated then what would you have done considering S/H,MAM,the off shore bases etc.. taking your work for a lot less pay.If you could not talk the J* tech crew into rejecting their pay and conditions then how do you suggest cabin Crew could have done anything better.
Your right that the new 'B' scale is for crew in Australia and not for overseas bases but then again so is J* pay and conditions...which in a way you allowed...
“Dunnunda & Godzone
An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.”
Scotty I think you should be able to understand that pilots are not the only people that work in aviation….Next time you go to work look around …….
Funbags….The problem with trying to negotiate this EBA is that L/H were white anted by S/H.They offered to do our flying for far less.The S/H union even shares office space with the company that provides cheap casual crew.
Add to that the company setting up bases in AKL,BKK and LHR which with the exception of the LHR crew do the same flights with Australian based cabin Crew for far less money.So we already have two different crew operating on the same aircraft for different pay and conditions which in effect is an ‘A’ and a ‘B’ scale.
I noticed that the tech crew did not object or support Australian Cabin Crew when the company set up these off shore bases whose only purpose was to drive down the T & C’s of Australian based crew.The tech crew did not object when the company insisted that L/H cabin crew operate LAX/JFK/LAX when the tech crew did not.
The tech crew don’t even support each other.Whether that is the 400 crew with the 767 crew or airbus crew and I won’t even bother mentioning the J* crew relations with mainline.
I suspect then that your concern is not really for cabin crew of the future but for the ramifications to your award.
If the tech crew union had allowed the impulse pilots years ago to join then maybe you wouldn’t have the problem you face with J* pay and conditions threatening your own now which is in effect a ‘B’ scale.
However,if you are not happy with what the FAAA has negotiated then what would you have done considering S/H,MAM,the off shore bases etc.. taking your work for a lot less pay.If you could not talk the J* tech crew into rejecting their pay and conditions then how do you suggest cabin Crew could have done anything better.
Your right that the new 'B' scale is for crew in Australia and not for overseas bases but then again so is J* pay and conditions...which in a way you allowed...
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Oh the happy back slapping & cheers for the FAAA. What a joke. The "I'malrightJackSyndrome" is alive & well within longhaul CC.
What an atrocious sell-out for all future staff just so you guys can get 3%. Look at overall staffing numbers - GD is just paying you out as a dying breed. Whilst your numbers shrink, other numbers grow and with disharmony will come conflict from within.
And its no brilliant ground breaking piece of negotiation. Its identical to the SH TC EBA just voted up. All future SH Captains sold out on lower wages than all those before them.
But hey 3% is worth integrity. God knows AN CC were the highest paid in the industry - and they proudly took that to there grave. We will all say the same about LH CC in 10 years.
Go spend your 3% and buy a congratulatory drink for your "great FAAA". And as if the new B-scalers will waste there hard earned 5c on subs for the likes of the FAAA - particularly when its so plain to see what you all think of everyone else. GD must be smirking all the way to the another HUGE bonus.
What an atrocious sell-out for all future staff just so you guys can get 3%. Look at overall staffing numbers - GD is just paying you out as a dying breed. Whilst your numbers shrink, other numbers grow and with disharmony will come conflict from within.
And its no brilliant ground breaking piece of negotiation. Its identical to the SH TC EBA just voted up. All future SH Captains sold out on lower wages than all those before them.
But hey 3% is worth integrity. God knows AN CC were the highest paid in the industry - and they proudly took that to there grave. We will all say the same about LH CC in 10 years.
Go spend your 3% and buy a congratulatory drink for your "great FAAA". And as if the new B-scalers will waste there hard earned 5c on subs for the likes of the FAAA - particularly when its so plain to see what you all think of everyone else. GD must be smirking all the way to the another HUGE bonus.
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"I suspect then that your concern is not really for cabin crew of the future but for the ramifications to your award."
No, not at all - I can't see any ramifications here.
Regards your other comments, as I stated in the last line of my previous post, we have done the same thing - S/O Singapore basings for new hires on inferior pay/conditions springs to mind! (agreed to by us in the last EBA)
No, not at all - I can't see any ramifications here.
Regards your other comments, as I stated in the last line of my previous post, we have done the same thing - S/O Singapore basings for new hires on inferior pay/conditions springs to mind! (agreed to by us in the last EBA)
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Originally Posted by funbags
and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew
I believe EBA8's outcomes are simply a recognition of the environment we find ourselves in and offer existing crew unprecedented job security. It also offers current MAM, Jet* and other crew the opportunity to access Australian based jobs with superior conditions.
I congratulate the FAAA on a great outcome and will be voting 'YES'.
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Funbags said
and
So what your saying is that the cabin crew have not acted differently than the pilots.So why did you make your post in the first place?
There are a few more things that the company got apart from cheap new crew.
Pay Protection: which sounds as though the company has fixed the problem of crew pulling a sickie in the last few days of the roster.To be honest but that was working against genuine crew who didn’t pull sickies so no great loss with that one.
New Regional slipping formula??????? So it looks like the company gets partially rid of the 1-1-2 formula.This could mean longer regional trips, Maybe??
Voting in delays has changed?????? That could be a worry.
I saw somewhere else that the company has got the OK to increase the overseas bases by nearly 50% and this wasn’t in the faaa newsletter under changes.Is this true ?
Is there anything else that is not in the newsletter and I found it a bit strange that it was done so soon after the election.What was the hurry guy’s?
and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew
we have done the same thing - S/O Singapore basings for new hires on inferior pay/conditions springs to mind! (agreed to by us in the last EBA)
There are a few more things that the company got apart from cheap new crew.
Pay Protection: which sounds as though the company has fixed the problem of crew pulling a sickie in the last few days of the roster.To be honest but that was working against genuine crew who didn’t pull sickies so no great loss with that one.
New Regional slipping formula??????? So it looks like the company gets partially rid of the 1-1-2 formula.This could mean longer regional trips, Maybe??
Voting in delays has changed?????? That could be a worry.
I saw somewhere else that the company has got the OK to increase the overseas bases by nearly 50% and this wasn’t in the faaa newsletter under changes.Is this true ?
Is there anything else that is not in the newsletter and I found it a bit strange that it was done so soon after the election.What was the hurry guy’s?
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The FAAA made the right decision with this EBA. There is no catch or hidden agenda here. For Qantas, it's a long term cost saving strategy to ensure lower pay for future generations of LH FA's. It is going to take nearly 10 years before Qantas transfoms and their new fleet of "Super Planes" are delivered, so part of that is the time frame for this EBA8. Plus GD and management (all the way down to the lowest office fool with a clipboard and pen allocation) get a bonus payment. Even more for GD when he makes his triumphant exit down the track. But the bonus $$$ will keep flowing for him and his mate PG as their QF Crew hiring company provide crew for Qantas. GD will stick to Qantas like sh*t to a shovel, even when he is long gone as CEO.
Yes, the new B scale crew will slowly overtake the old crew in numbers and maybe the next EBA will not be as kind. The A scale crew will be "OK" while there are still Qantas 747 flying, presumably for the next 5 years and maybe beyond.
For me, yes, it is about me, a more dignified exit from Qantas after, so far, 28 years of loyal service. The opportunity to stay maybe a couple more years, perhaps as Part Time, is appreciated. I am sure VR will be offered on an ongoing basis to dwindle the numbers of "overpaid " even more. Moral high ground or GOD's are not a factor in EBA8.
Yes, the new B scale crew will slowly overtake the old crew in numbers and maybe the next EBA will not be as kind. The A scale crew will be "OK" while there are still Qantas 747 flying, presumably for the next 5 years and maybe beyond.
For me, yes, it is about me, a more dignified exit from Qantas after, so far, 28 years of loyal service. The opportunity to stay maybe a couple more years, perhaps as Part Time, is appreciated. I am sure VR will be offered on an ongoing basis to dwindle the numbers of "overpaid " even more. Moral high ground or GOD's are not a factor in EBA8.
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PS:
This EBA is the only way Qantas can crew the new A380 with a dedicated cheaper crew plus getting them to work on the older existing aircraft. With only 1 delivered next year and the rest over the next 8 to 10 years, a seperate 380 crew division would not be viable at this stage.
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all in all things seem good and the FAAA must have been shocked when the company delivered this proposal.
there must be a catch somewhere ?
the 75% regional flying could be a problem as that will mean only approximately 9 hour sectors and without the slipping formula and no long range, basically a reduction in take home pay. can someone clarify this!
Also the huge recruitment in the new QCCA will mean that FAAA number will shrink, that could pose a problem as in 4 years time QF will have a ready labour force to simply replace us FAAA members.
I must congratulate that FAAA, so far they appear to have a good job with the negotiations.
in regards to midnight 63 some advice for you QF have a long memory and you have to be accountable for your actions, your midnight adventures in 2004 will never be pardoned, plus the attitude of your colleagues in AKL have seriously damaged all the reputation from people on that base.
if i was on the recruitment panel and saw that your former employment was AKL base, it would end up in the shredder, the attitude and rot that exists there is endemic, why transfer it to the new recruits!
there must be a catch somewhere ?
the 75% regional flying could be a problem as that will mean only approximately 9 hour sectors and without the slipping formula and no long range, basically a reduction in take home pay. can someone clarify this!
Also the huge recruitment in the new QCCA will mean that FAAA number will shrink, that could pose a problem as in 4 years time QF will have a ready labour force to simply replace us FAAA members.
I must congratulate that FAAA, so far they appear to have a good job with the negotiations.
in regards to midnight 63 some advice for you QF have a long memory and you have to be accountable for your actions, your midnight adventures in 2004 will never be pardoned, plus the attitude of your colleagues in AKL have seriously damaged all the reputation from people on that base.
if i was on the recruitment panel and saw that your former employment was AKL base, it would end up in the shredder, the attitude and rot that exists there is endemic, why transfer it to the new recruits!
short flights long nights
Is this just the start??? Cabin Crew now...Pilots to follow??? Are the alarm bells ringing??
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SOPS,I'm not sure as your guys have a heck of a lot more bargaining power than we do.
As funbags said her union agreed to much the same thing for second officers in a singapore basing.You also had pilots agree to transfer to Jet Star for less money.
But this is without a doubt a clear,deliberate precedent.
The big question is did the faaa have any other choice?
As funbags said her union agreed to much the same thing for second officers in a singapore basing.You also had pilots agree to transfer to Jet Star for less money.
But this is without a doubt a clear,deliberate precedent.
The big question is did the faaa have any other choice?