Jetstar Cross Cockpit Qualifications
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Well according to FlyingCircus, it's
One of you must be wrong.
Trust a frog to come up with something as poorly thought-out as that. They probably had something feminine-sounding in their own lingo then converted it using MS Translator and never bothered trying it out to see how it sounds.
Anyway it's aviation-related, who cares what a frenchman calls it?
Just for you, Schnauzer, I will re-phrase the question:
Which pen-pushing, frog-eating, gun-dropping, garlic-breath, surrender-monkeying, desk-jockey coined that term??
cross crew qualification
Trust a frog to come up with something as poorly thought-out as that. They probably had something feminine-sounding in their own lingo then converted it using MS Translator and never bothered trying it out to see how it sounds.
Anyway it's aviation-related, who cares what a frenchman calls it?
Just for you, Schnauzer, I will re-phrase the question:
Which pen-pushing, frog-eating, gun-dropping, garlic-breath, surrender-monkeying, desk-jockey coined that term??
From http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...s/02145top.xml
Although the A380 is equipped with larger, interactive displays and provides the flight crew with additional information, such as vertical situational awareness, its cockpit basically retains an A330/ A340-like flight deck to facilitate Cross Crew Qualification (CCQ). Managers of Airbus Training, the manufacturer's flight crew training arm, are targeting a 9-11-day transition to the A380. They note that most launch customers envision CCQ operations. For example, Emirates, Singapore, Lufthansa German Airlines and Virgin Atlantic Airways plan A340/A380 CCQ. Similarly, Air France, Qatar Airways and Qantas plan A330/A380 CCQ.
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Schnauzer,
I don't need to justify them, sunshine. They're not in Qantas.
Believe it or not, Jetstar, being a "Qantas Group" company, does require its pilots to adhere to the cyclic training and checking requirements set forth and approved by its parent.
Therefore, although JQ pilots operate differently to your esteemed organisation, they still do it to the same standard.
Many Impulse pilots did not successfully progress through the QF recruitment process, Schnauzer (and you too, Conrad). That is a fact. But the very fact that they now operate "group" aircraft to exactly the same standards dictated by your employer (the same standards as you, shock-horror!) would, to my mind, serve as just as valid an indicator of ability as the results of any HR driven, "behavioural" interview or computer-based psych and skills test.
That, of course, and the fact that VQ/JQ pilots actually FLY the aircraft (most flew at least 500 sectors last year, some quite a bit more than that) might make most Impulse drivers a little more skilled than even an above-average QF Second Officer. And probably just as good as your real pilots, too! What do you think, sweetheart?
P.S - Judging by how the EBA7 negotiations are going, my @rse is a lot less likely to need saving than yours.
I don't need to justify them, sunshine. They're not in Qantas.
Believe it or not, Jetstar, being a "Qantas Group" company, does require its pilots to adhere to the cyclic training and checking requirements set forth and approved by its parent.
Therefore, although JQ pilots operate differently to your esteemed organisation, they still do it to the same standard.
Many Impulse pilots did not successfully progress through the QF recruitment process, Schnauzer (and you too, Conrad). That is a fact. But the very fact that they now operate "group" aircraft to exactly the same standards dictated by your employer (the same standards as you, shock-horror!) would, to my mind, serve as just as valid an indicator of ability as the results of any HR driven, "behavioural" interview or computer-based psych and skills test.
That, of course, and the fact that VQ/JQ pilots actually FLY the aircraft (most flew at least 500 sectors last year, some quite a bit more than that) might make most Impulse drivers a little more skilled than even an above-average QF Second Officer. And probably just as good as your real pilots, too! What do you think, sweetheart?
P.S - Judging by how the EBA7 negotiations are going, my @rse is a lot less likely to need saving than yours.
Last edited by flyingins; 11th Oct 2005 at 13:28.
Bottums Up
I wonder how many of the "Jet* pilots failed QF selection brigade" would happily walk from their job if their employer was brought out by BiggerBetterAirways, and the new employer decided that because they didn't formerly work for BiggerBetterAirways that they were second class citizens and therefore not to be employed?
It really saddens me how little empathy many pilots show towards professional colleagues.
edit for grammar
It really saddens me how little empathy many pilots show towards professional colleagues.
edit for grammar
Last edited by Capt Claret; 12th Oct 2005 at 07:10.
Claret,
Thays Australian aviation through and through and the primary reason we are unable to improve our collective lot together.
Oz2
Thays Australian aviation through and through and the primary reason we are unable to improve our collective lot together.
Oz2
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But the jetstar losers do not operate to the same standards now do they boys.
Thats what we are hearing from the mainline auditors who have done surveillance, and also from the mainline capt seconded into JQ to fix the shambolic state of its training and operational standards.
All those dark little secrets - All those near misses.
I understand that a number of incidents have been kept out of the media by the personal intervention of James Packer (he is on the board for something after all).
Oldmeadow must be pissing himself laughing.
Thats what we are hearing from the mainline auditors who have done surveillance, and also from the mainline capt seconded into JQ to fix the shambolic state of its training and operational standards.
All those dark little secrets - All those near misses.
I understand that a number of incidents have been kept out of the media by the personal intervention of James Packer (he is on the board for something after all).
Oldmeadow must be pissing himself laughing.
Bottums Up
Amazing how it's always other companies that have poor standards. 
I don't recall too much press about the QF737 that left an Australian capital city runway and needed engine repairs as well as a replacement wheel/brake assembly.
ps don't work for QF or Jet* or Virgin, so no axe to grind
I don't recall too much press about the QF737 that left an Australian capital city runway and needed engine repairs as well as a replacement wheel/brake assembly.
ps don't work for QF or Jet* or Virgin, so no axe to grind
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Refresh my memory, how did QF fair in its first LOSA audit ... was it last ?
"All those dark little secrets - All those near misses."
For at stabilised approach into cairns in a 747, is it normal to just slow to flap extension speed half way down the runway ? How does one hold at Canberra ? Had a level bust recently mr QF ? Plugged the wrong SID in the FMC recently mr QF ?
I think J* needs to start flying into more airports that have golf courses nearby on their overnights, or maybe stop using reverse thrust into Sydney to test the passenger evacuation system with a live demonstration.
Why leave the gate, when you can leave a door behind in the aerobridge, or better still push back a brand new aircraft with a tug in the engine.
QF spends about 5 times more time training their pilots, is there any linkage to suggest they are 5 times less error free than National Jet, Virgin, or Jetstar ?
Arr yes precious, do as you say, not do as you do.
ps don't work for QF or Jet*, National Jet or Virgin either, so no axe to grind
"All those dark little secrets - All those near misses."
For at stabilised approach into cairns in a 747, is it normal to just slow to flap extension speed half way down the runway ? How does one hold at Canberra ? Had a level bust recently mr QF ? Plugged the wrong SID in the FMC recently mr QF ?
I think J* needs to start flying into more airports that have golf courses nearby on their overnights, or maybe stop using reverse thrust into Sydney to test the passenger evacuation system with a live demonstration.
Why leave the gate, when you can leave a door behind in the aerobridge, or better still push back a brand new aircraft with a tug in the engine.
QF spends about 5 times more time training their pilots, is there any linkage to suggest they are 5 times less error free than National Jet, Virgin, or Jetstar ?
Arr yes precious, do as you say, not do as you do.
ps don't work for QF or Jet*, National Jet or Virgin either, so no axe to grind
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Calligula, you are kidding yourself!!
What dark little secrets? Come out with it!! Utter rubbish!! When it comes to "near misses" everybody is well aware of who leads the pack.
What do you think they’re going to say? "Say Geoff, those J Star boys & gals do it so much better than us, why cant we deploy them on more of our routes?" Glass houses Calligula, I think you need to clean up your own shambolic state of operational standards before shooting off at the mouth on issues of which you clearly have no authority.
My point exactly!! JP is doing a fantastic job of keeping all those mainline incidents out of the media!!
All those dark little secrets - All those near misses.
Thats what we are hearing from the mainline auditors who have done surveillance, and also from the mainline capt seconded into JQ to fix the shambolic state of its training and operational standards.
I understand that a number of incidents have been kept out of the media by the personal intervention of James Packer (he is on the board for something after all).
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And its w@nk#ers like yourself Calligula that make mainline the butt of jokes in the real world in bars across the globe. My guess is your a snotty little S/O who has a "I demand respect, cant you see these 2 bars" attitude who has to resort to "well I heard the other day" comments to make yourself feel important in your pathetic little existance
Its a real shame cause 90% of mainline blokes and sheila's are decent folks but its the 10% band that you fall into that we like to call the mainline clowns (roll the circus music)
Be careful son, one day I may be your captain and will make you carry my navbag everywhere I go
Its a real shame cause 90% of mainline blokes and sheila's are decent folks but its the 10% band that you fall into that we like to call the mainline clowns (roll the circus music)
Be careful son, one day I may be your captain and will make you carry my navbag everywhere I go
Nunc est bibendum
Miriam, you left out taking off without the IRS aligned! 
Keep us quiet rat? I don't know what the standard of J* is but I assume it's OK because CASA keep renewing the AOC and let them fly the A320 BUT there are a couple of areas worth touching on.
No it wasn't but two issues follow on. Firstly, Uni Texas were VERY suprised that for the 'benign flying environment' that everyone keeps telling us we Aussies have, we had double the number of threats that other LOSA airlines had. Then again, lies, damn lies and statistics. Further, pursuing the LOSA argument in comparison of mainline with J* may not quite prove the point that you want it to! 
Beyond that Miriam, get a grip. We can start pointing fingers all over the place. J*, DJ and most other operators in Australia have their fair share of incidents like lining up on highways, landing on closed runways, breaking altitudes, etc, etc. Just because a boorish idiot like calligula makes snide remarks does not mean that the rest of the forum should respond the same way. Only thing it does do is ensure that you look as much a goose as Calligula does. Fair dinkum, what a bunch of children we can be at times! So much for 'professional'!
Probably not the type of 'quiet' you expected ratpoison!
Keep us quiet rat? I don't know what the standard of J* is but I assume it's OK because CASA keep renewing the AOC and let them fly the A320 BUT there are a couple of areas worth touching on.
how did QF fair in its first LOSA audit ... was it last ?
Beyond that Miriam, get a grip. We can start pointing fingers all over the place. J*, DJ and most other operators in Australia have their fair share of incidents like lining up on highways, landing on closed runways, breaking altitudes, etc, etc. Just because a boorish idiot like calligula makes snide remarks does not mean that the rest of the forum should respond the same way. Only thing it does do is ensure that you look as much a goose as Calligula does. Fair dinkum, what a bunch of children we can be at times! So much for 'professional'!
Probably not the type of 'quiet' you expected ratpoison!
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Keg (son of Geoff),
I don’t work in oz, where I work we have about 100 incidents a month with a fleet size of 50-150 young wide bodies, the incidents are collated and distributed to all crew on a regular basis, but I am not stupid enough like Calligula to mouth off at others just because they work harder for less money.
Australia, and to be honest with you it is a benign flying environment, its not a 3rd world country, English is the primary language, and terrain, known/unknown traffic and weather is nothing compared to other places around.
Aviation safety is a passion of mine, I take a lot of interest in what happens in Australia.
I am very aware of the LOSA findings at QF as are many of others out there, and self induced threats, or staying in an environment where the corporate culture is such that nothing is done once an error occurs significantly increase the threat to safety.
I would have personally thought that J* would have a lower incident rate than the long haul fleet at QF does, they do more sectors than long haul, normalizing the data should produce more errors from long haul. If it doesn’t something its a statistical abnormality as people working in a familiar environment regularly are less error prone than those the infrequently work and work in unfamiliar environments.
The SOPs at QF are very slack, they play importance on old historical procedures (like calling altimeters every 10000 ft in a glass cockpit) or doing procedures which are not in accordance with manufacturers procedures because that what they did on the XXX aircraft.
There are a lot of good people in QF, however it is a big organization with the cadets that were promoted over the years to take up management positions don’t really know there is another way of doing things.
One of the best safety improvements for QF was the demise of AN, not that they knew everything either, but sure gave the safety department an extraordinary improvement in skills and experience.
Anyway I hope the J* boys get their 330's and 350's, I don’t need to get a grip, I have been outside Australia, I know what reality is like, I work for a living.
I don’t work in oz, where I work we have about 100 incidents a month with a fleet size of 50-150 young wide bodies, the incidents are collated and distributed to all crew on a regular basis, but I am not stupid enough like Calligula to mouth off at others just because they work harder for less money.
Australia, and to be honest with you it is a benign flying environment, its not a 3rd world country, English is the primary language, and terrain, known/unknown traffic and weather is nothing compared to other places around.
Aviation safety is a passion of mine, I take a lot of interest in what happens in Australia.
I am very aware of the LOSA findings at QF as are many of others out there, and self induced threats, or staying in an environment where the corporate culture is such that nothing is done once an error occurs significantly increase the threat to safety.
I would have personally thought that J* would have a lower incident rate than the long haul fleet at QF does, they do more sectors than long haul, normalizing the data should produce more errors from long haul. If it doesn’t something its a statistical abnormality as people working in a familiar environment regularly are less error prone than those the infrequently work and work in unfamiliar environments.
The SOPs at QF are very slack, they play importance on old historical procedures (like calling altimeters every 10000 ft in a glass cockpit) or doing procedures which are not in accordance with manufacturers procedures because that what they did on the XXX aircraft.
There are a lot of good people in QF, however it is a big organization with the cadets that were promoted over the years to take up management positions don’t really know there is another way of doing things.
One of the best safety improvements for QF was the demise of AN, not that they knew everything either, but sure gave the safety department an extraordinary improvement in skills and experience.
Anyway I hope the J* boys get their 330's and 350's, I don’t need to get a grip, I have been outside Australia, I know what reality is like, I work for a living.
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You don't have a clue about reality, Miriam. You simply blow your own trumpet and tell us all that you know better than "those cadets".
What utter tripe. But you won't be told, will you? Just a few examples of where you are WRONG.
Our procedures are Boeing or Airbus almost without exception.
QF Shorthaul do plenty of sectors. Gee, almost as much as J*.
You give the J* boys their 330's and 350's and what the hell, 380's, and my friend you have just come along a destroyed pilot pay and conditions in this country for the future.
All because you are bitter at QF for whatever reason. Spare me.
What utter tripe. But you won't be told, will you? Just a few examples of where you are WRONG.
Our procedures are Boeing or Airbus almost without exception.
QF Shorthaul do plenty of sectors. Gee, almost as much as J*.
You give the J* boys their 330's and 350's and what the hell, 380's, and my friend you have just come along a destroyed pilot pay and conditions in this country for the future.
All because you are bitter at QF for whatever reason. Spare me.
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schnauzer,
Please remind me where I mentioned QF domestic ? or where I said I know better ?
QF procedures may mimic the manufacture, the SOPs were very slack, that’s what was picked up on the LOSA audit.
Correct me if I am wrong, it was not Impulse or J* that prevented them from having full APIA membership. Now APIA panic that domestic flying and possibly international going to J*.
I am hearing the a lot of the guys in the lower ranks are pretty pi$$ed at the senior captains they that recommended this course of action, and where they are getting nice little kick along in their wages.
What I am hearing F/Os & S/O's are blaming the senior captains and APIA representatives for destroyed pilot pay and conditions within QF. What I am also hearing is if the reforms keep continuing, promotions for F/O's and S/O's are going to grind to a halt.
If this isn’t the case, the QF guys I sit down an have a beer with must be working for a different company.
I’m not bitter at QF, I have no axe to grind, just looking at the situation from an outsiders point of view.
Please remind me where I mentioned QF domestic ? or where I said I know better ?
QF procedures may mimic the manufacture, the SOPs were very slack, that’s what was picked up on the LOSA audit.
Correct me if I am wrong, it was not Impulse or J* that prevented them from having full APIA membership. Now APIA panic that domestic flying and possibly international going to J*.
I am hearing the a lot of the guys in the lower ranks are pretty pi$$ed at the senior captains they that recommended this course of action, and where they are getting nice little kick along in their wages.
What I am hearing F/Os & S/O's are blaming the senior captains and APIA representatives for destroyed pilot pay and conditions within QF. What I am also hearing is if the reforms keep continuing, promotions for F/O's and S/O's are going to grind to a halt.
If this isn’t the case, the QF guys I sit down an have a beer with must be working for a different company.
I’m not bitter at QF, I have no axe to grind, just looking at the situation from an outsiders point of view.
Miriam
One of the things that came out of the soul searching done after the LOSA report was that because QF's SOP's and policy manuals are very detailed it resulted in many more "threats" being observed in comparison with airlines whose procedures and manuals aren't as clearly defined. This was a very significant reason for the result
QF procedures may mimic the manufacture, the SOPs were very slack, that’s what was picked up on the LOSA audit
