Be Honest with Yourself HI'er
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Be Honest with Yourself HI'er
As suggested by Spad in a post on another thread recently, be honest with yourself; this referes particularly to HI'er on another closed thread.
He states that the resignations back in 89 were submitted because writs were issued. The resignations were all signed from about 2200 thru to 0200, an submitted about 1000, less than 12 hours not the 36 as you suggest..
Capt/FO relax737 says it s highly unlikely that ANY writs were issued between 0200 and 1000, and any reasonable person would agree. Process servers, the low lives that they are, do not have excess energy as one of their plusses.
Don't delude yourself my boy. As relax says, you were conned and the sooner you admit it to yourself, the better off you'll be. The more you attempt to convince yourslef that the AFAP did the job well, the more you will delude yourself.
But it seems that delusion is a way of life for many 89ers If you're happy to continue that, then I have no problem with it, but don't dontinue to try convincing the rest of us.
He states that the resignations back in 89 were submitted because writs were issued. The resignations were all signed from about 2200 thru to 0200, an submitted about 1000, less than 12 hours not the 36 as you suggest..
Capt/FO relax737 says it s highly unlikely that ANY writs were issued between 0200 and 1000, and any reasonable person would agree. Process servers, the low lives that they are, do not have excess energy as one of their plusses.
Don't delude yourself my boy. As relax says, you were conned and the sooner you admit it to yourself, the better off you'll be. The more you attempt to convince yourslef that the AFAP did the job well, the more you will delude yourself.
But it seems that delusion is a way of life for many 89ers If you're happy to continue that, then I have no problem with it, but don't dontinue to try convincing the rest of us.
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You wonder why the companies were pushed to the limit in that year. Ask him about his mate who is now in the upper eschelon at the aero club with 737's who made sure he did a real long walk around in ROK during the 9 to 5 campaign. By the time he strapped himself in the seat he decided he would not get back until 1650 making his sign off 1705. He thereby walked off the aircraft and stranded 90 people in ROK to bloat his already overinflated ego. I believe very little has changed with this snowy haired gent over the years. Ansett sure was lucky it rid itself of the likes of this when it did or it would have gone down years earlier than it did.
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I wasn’t going to, but, just one last time,
Let’s start with our friend Pass-A-Frozzo. Scorn, abuse, blame for total devastation of our fine country is levelled at the pilots for The Strike.
Pass-A-Frozzo is informed (politely, I might add) that when employees withdraw their labour it is a “strike”, and when an employer withdraws access to the workplace it is a “lockout”.
Sir Peter Abeles’ words are on the record so the technicality is resolved.
Frozzo half gets this but still continues the rant. At the same time he makes absolutely no mention of the economic sabotage of the Hawke/Crean/Kelty ACTU. Fuel strikes, train/bus/tram strikes, maritime strikes and the rest. The whole problem was the pilots. The ACTU boys, well they were just having a bit of fun in the sun.
Pass-A now catches on but it seems the poor people of Kalbarri suffered not because of months of aircraft not flying with the system shut down by the unholy Airline/Government/ACTU alliance. – No, it was six days of reduced operations. Pilots working the same hours as the executives awarded 30+%.
It’s a wonder, Frozzo, the islands didn’t sink! There is still a little confusion with Frozzo however, when one goes to work one is not on strike, when one is on strike one does not go to work.
I certainly don’t make light of the suffering of the innocent people hurt by all this. I met a couple at the time and will (once again) relate their view.
This middle age couple drove up from the Gold Coast to attend a Town Hall meeting in Brisbane. They owned a small Motel and were suffering greatly. It was obvious I was one of the pilots so they came over to talk. They were from an Eastern European country, escaped a totalitarian regime and came to Australia. They set up a small business and relished our freedoms and way of life. When all this broke out they were alarmed, to say the least. They saw here in that unholy alliance what they fled from years before. Their words to me, “we didn’t swim the river to have the same thing here, don’t ever give in, don’t let them beat you, we are only two and cannot fight - you can, if they beat you - they beat us”.
I would imagine that after just a short time with the ever eloquent Gaunty the people of Kalbarri would probably feel the same.
Pass-A-Frozzo I am pleased that you are happy with your pay and conditions. The unusual hour of the morning led me to think you were on a similar pattern to mine.
I guess I would also be happy if I had an employer who paid me to sit up all night surfing the Internet.
relax737 (and the model aircraft engine). What can I say that hasn’t been said before? Here we are splitting sixteen year old hairs. Maybe just a quick scenario,
Imagine I am home all those years ago, having far from a picnic. There is a knock at the door, I open it and am served a writ. My wife inquires who it was and I tell her that Murdoch and Abeles are going to take our house, car, what little furniture we have, the small fund for the kids school fees, everything, and we will end up in the street. “Well, darling, that’s fine but did you get the exact time?” I mean WTF. There is a big picture here. I honestly can’t tell you how many writs were served when and where. The point is they were served!
I am a little confused as to your interpretation of a letter of resignation. You don’t write one out then do the shopping with it. It is a fairly specific form of documentation. A lot has been said about taking responsibility. When I filled out my resignation I expected it to be submitted. Why else would I waste my time and energy? The Federation didn’t make me do it, the other pilots didn’t make me do it, the devil didn’t make me do – I did it!
What did you think they were going to do with them, relax, wallpaper the lift lobby of the Albert Street building? I resigned because I wished to resign.
It has been a while, sixteen years, for the pudding to provide the proof, but in that whole time Murdoch and Abeles have not harmed any member of my family or taken any of our possessions. I see it as a good decision.
relax737, as has been said many times before, we all made our own decisions. No one should ever forget the reasons behind those decisions and the lessons that have, and have not been learnt, but nevertheless we all made our own bunks and perhaps it is time we returned to them.
Richard, your well put together post illustrates just about everything that I have tried not to teach my children. It is your view, and you are entitled to it, but I believe that just because something is does not mean it has to be. If it is wrong then it is worth challenging. You may win, you may loose – that’s life, but you will never be the poorer for trying.
If everyone took the defeatist view, too bad, that’s just the way it is, learn to live with it, then there would still be a monarchy in France, a Berlin wall and thousands of people in the streets of Manilla would not have removed a dictator.
Good luck to you and enjoy your flying.
I think the Woomera have been very patient. I think the young pilots who were not involved have had enough of us. We have filled more pages on this subject than any other topic and for anyone wishing to learn can simply retrieve what’s been written.
I am far from being a “Boy” and only used the name, for what was meant to be a once only post, to illustrate the difference before and after that fateful day when the blinkers were ripped off and I saw what was really happening in our country.
It is probably a good time to not only retire from the debate but retire the name.
As EWL says “best to all”
Let’s start with our friend Pass-A-Frozzo. Scorn, abuse, blame for total devastation of our fine country is levelled at the pilots for The Strike.
Pass-A-Frozzo is informed (politely, I might add) that when employees withdraw their labour it is a “strike”, and when an employer withdraws access to the workplace it is a “lockout”.
Sir Peter Abeles’ words are on the record so the technicality is resolved.
Frozzo half gets this but still continues the rant. At the same time he makes absolutely no mention of the economic sabotage of the Hawke/Crean/Kelty ACTU. Fuel strikes, train/bus/tram strikes, maritime strikes and the rest. The whole problem was the pilots. The ACTU boys, well they were just having a bit of fun in the sun.
Pass-A now catches on but it seems the poor people of Kalbarri suffered not because of months of aircraft not flying with the system shut down by the unholy Airline/Government/ACTU alliance. – No, it was six days of reduced operations. Pilots working the same hours as the executives awarded 30+%.
It’s a wonder, Frozzo, the islands didn’t sink! There is still a little confusion with Frozzo however, when one goes to work one is not on strike, when one is on strike one does not go to work.
I certainly don’t make light of the suffering of the innocent people hurt by all this. I met a couple at the time and will (once again) relate their view.
This middle age couple drove up from the Gold Coast to attend a Town Hall meeting in Brisbane. They owned a small Motel and were suffering greatly. It was obvious I was one of the pilots so they came over to talk. They were from an Eastern European country, escaped a totalitarian regime and came to Australia. They set up a small business and relished our freedoms and way of life. When all this broke out they were alarmed, to say the least. They saw here in that unholy alliance what they fled from years before. Their words to me, “we didn’t swim the river to have the same thing here, don’t ever give in, don’t let them beat you, we are only two and cannot fight - you can, if they beat you - they beat us”.
I would imagine that after just a short time with the ever eloquent Gaunty the people of Kalbarri would probably feel the same.
Pass-A-Frozzo I am pleased that you are happy with your pay and conditions. The unusual hour of the morning led me to think you were on a similar pattern to mine.
I guess I would also be happy if I had an employer who paid me to sit up all night surfing the Internet.
relax737 (and the model aircraft engine). What can I say that hasn’t been said before? Here we are splitting sixteen year old hairs. Maybe just a quick scenario,
Imagine I am home all those years ago, having far from a picnic. There is a knock at the door, I open it and am served a writ. My wife inquires who it was and I tell her that Murdoch and Abeles are going to take our house, car, what little furniture we have, the small fund for the kids school fees, everything, and we will end up in the street. “Well, darling, that’s fine but did you get the exact time?” I mean WTF. There is a big picture here. I honestly can’t tell you how many writs were served when and where. The point is they were served!
I am a little confused as to your interpretation of a letter of resignation. You don’t write one out then do the shopping with it. It is a fairly specific form of documentation. A lot has been said about taking responsibility. When I filled out my resignation I expected it to be submitted. Why else would I waste my time and energy? The Federation didn’t make me do it, the other pilots didn’t make me do it, the devil didn’t make me do – I did it!
What did you think they were going to do with them, relax, wallpaper the lift lobby of the Albert Street building? I resigned because I wished to resign.
It has been a while, sixteen years, for the pudding to provide the proof, but in that whole time Murdoch and Abeles have not harmed any member of my family or taken any of our possessions. I see it as a good decision.
relax737, as has been said many times before, we all made our own decisions. No one should ever forget the reasons behind those decisions and the lessons that have, and have not been learnt, but nevertheless we all made our own bunks and perhaps it is time we returned to them.
Richard, your well put together post illustrates just about everything that I have tried not to teach my children. It is your view, and you are entitled to it, but I believe that just because something is does not mean it has to be. If it is wrong then it is worth challenging. You may win, you may loose – that’s life, but you will never be the poorer for trying.
If everyone took the defeatist view, too bad, that’s just the way it is, learn to live with it, then there would still be a monarchy in France, a Berlin wall and thousands of people in the streets of Manilla would not have removed a dictator.
Good luck to you and enjoy your flying.
I think the Woomera have been very patient. I think the young pilots who were not involved have had enough of us. We have filled more pages on this subject than any other topic and for anyone wishing to learn can simply retrieve what’s been written.
I am far from being a “Boy” and only used the name, for what was meant to be a once only post, to illustrate the difference before and after that fateful day when the blinkers were ripped off and I saw what was really happening in our country.
It is probably a good time to not only retire from the debate but retire the name.
As EWL says “best to all”
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Brisboy, I don't understand the model aeroplane engine quip, so can you please clear that up for me.
Secondly, I think you've missed a point made here many times, and that is that NO writs were served between when the reisgnations were signed and submitted, but you guys say time and again that they were submitted to save your houses.
We were told that they would only be used if necessary, and at that stage it wasn't necessary, or maybe they would have said so.
So, the only logical conclusion that I and others draw is that there were writs served between 0200 and 1000 that made the submissions of the resignations necessary, and that quite obviously didn't happen.
As for nobody making you do it, your case if anything like mine, you were given NO choice. Sign or else. When I expressed apprehension, I was told that it wouldn;t be used,but if I didn't sign then I would never fly in Australia again. So much for nobody making me do it.
I didn't exepct they would paper the lift well, and I didn't care what they did provided they didn't suibmit it as they undertook NOT TO DO unless they had to do so. Refer no writs issued between 0200 and 1000 above.
I imagine that being seved a writ for damages after the event is a little like being thrown into bankruptcy. If you hadn't divested yourself of assets that you wanted to hid at least six months prior to the bankruptcy, then they are still up for grabs. I'll get some legal advice on this, but I think your house would have been the same. Resigning wouldn't have protected it because you owned it when you committed the action for which the writ was issued.
Nor did they exercise the successful damages actions agains the AFAP, ($12M if I remember correctly)butthey did win, so your assets were fairly safe I would have thought.
.
I have no further comment on this. Trying to rationalize with you guys is like trying to rationalize with a three year old. You come up with the same old menaingless crap.
You were conned so admit it.
Secondly, I think you've missed a point made here many times, and that is that NO writs were served between when the reisgnations were signed and submitted, but you guys say time and again that they were submitted to save your houses.
We were told that they would only be used if necessary, and at that stage it wasn't necessary, or maybe they would have said so.
So, the only logical conclusion that I and others draw is that there were writs served between 0200 and 1000 that made the submissions of the resignations necessary, and that quite obviously didn't happen.
As for nobody making you do it, your case if anything like mine, you were given NO choice. Sign or else. When I expressed apprehension, I was told that it wouldn;t be used,but if I didn't sign then I would never fly in Australia again. So much for nobody making me do it.
I didn't exepct they would paper the lift well, and I didn't care what they did provided they didn't suibmit it as they undertook NOT TO DO unless they had to do so. Refer no writs issued between 0200 and 1000 above.
I imagine that being seved a writ for damages after the event is a little like being thrown into bankruptcy. If you hadn't divested yourself of assets that you wanted to hid at least six months prior to the bankruptcy, then they are still up for grabs. I'll get some legal advice on this, but I think your house would have been the same. Resigning wouldn't have protected it because you owned it when you committed the action for which the writ was issued.
Nor did they exercise the successful damages actions agains the AFAP, ($12M if I remember correctly)butthey did win, so your assets were fairly safe I would have thought.
.
I have no further comment on this. Trying to rationalize with you guys is like trying to rationalize with a three year old. You come up with the same old menaingless crap.
You were conned so admit it.
Last edited by relax737; 11th Oct 2005 at 08:38.
I've found my wooden stake, now if only I could remember where I put the mallet.
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Pass-A-Frozzo I am pleased that you are happy with your pay and conditions. The unusual hour of the morning led me to think you were on a similar pattern to mine.
To be technically correct I could of actually been sleeping and earning money. 
Gee, sounds like flying for a living 
Withdrawing labour is a strike. 89ers withdrew there hours outside of normal "office hours".
I encourage you to visit Finlay's , read the massive sign on the wall about the pilot's strike and then try convince them.
Imagine I am home all those years ago, having far from a picnic. There is a knock at the door, I open it and am served a writ. My wife inquires who it was and I tell her that Murdoch and Abeles are going to take our house, car, what little furniture we have, the small fund for the kids school fees, everything, and we will end up in the street. “Well, darling, that’s fine but did you get the exact time?” I mean WTF
One thing... if there were no costs caused by the pilots, why were you worried about being sued for costs??? Surely the writs wouldn't have been worth the paper they were written on. (wow, is that a pun??) Unless you had cost a lot of people a lot of money (to the value of your house and car etc.).
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89ers withdrew there hours outside of normal "office hours".
Why should we have considered ourselves anything OTHER than "ordinary" Australians?
That's what Abeles told us we were - that is what YOU have been telling us we are here on Prune for the past week or thereabouts P-A-F.
Now it seems that relax is having a (convenient) relapse - it wouldn't be anything to do with trying to re-write history perchance?
Sorry relapse, and the model aero engine, but pilots "arrived at the Federation's offices (in all States) from 6pm....at noon the next day, McCarthy arranged for piles of resignations to be delivered.....the airlines only had time to issue 36 joint writs and dismissal notices to pilots' homes." (Sky Pirates - Chapter 4)
As for nobody making you do it, your case if anything like mine, you were given NO choice. Sign or else.
Or else, what?
In fact, I didn't sign mine that evening I attended the meeting (I signed it the following afternoon) - there were no "sign or else" comments made nor implied.
In spite of the bravado you try to present here relax, it seems you're a bit of a girl's blouse in reality if you weren't man enough to express your true sentiments in front of your peers.
Nor did they exercise the successful damages actions agains the AFAP, ($12M if I remember correctly)butthey did win, so your assets were fairly safe I would have thought.
It is believed the reason they probably were not, was because the precedent it would have set for a company to act against ANY union (and its officials) involved in an industrial disputation would have wreaked national widespread strikes of "ordinary" Australians - not the least being the fine workers of Finlays Fish & Chip shop in Kalbarri, who are amongst the first to feel the effects of any industrial disputes.
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But they did go to work from 0900-1700 to work an 8 hour day - just like other "ordinary" Australians do.
By not doing so you cost people, who had nothing to do with your pay cheque, money. To believe someone working in a country Western Australian town with no interest in whether you had gotten another 30% [other than the massive rise in costs to their business that would have resulted had you been granted that rise] would be "standing with you" is fantasy. It's not like you were working in the mines and earning a few dollars an hour.
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Do you still have records on what a senior captain was earning before the 30% pay gouge was laid on the airline. Might be interesting to correct that for CPI increase and convert to real (2005) dollars.
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You chose to not work outside those hours as a "weapon" against your employer. You went on strike.
Don't cry in your batter over it.
What precisely is your point?
It's not like you were working in the mines and earning a few dollars an hour.
p.s. If you want to know income details research it yourself, you seem to have an abundance of time "at work" to spend on the Internet.
It's fortunate for your employer that you're not as necessary in your employment as a "senior Captain" on an aircraft is.
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What precisely is your point?
In actual fact, miners get paid a helluva lot more than pilots do - I should know, both my brothers-in-law are (miners).
p.s. If you want to know income details research it yourself, you seem to have an abundance of time "at work" to spend on the Internet.
One thing is that I provide my employer exactly what they demand, and I in return get a level of remuneration that I'm happy with. Not everyone in society is looking to "stick it to the man".
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My point is I find it incredible you can't even see the problem with asking for a pay rise, and using the expense of others as a tool to achieve that!
Every person has the right to try to improve his lot within all means legally available to him.
If YOU have a problem with that, take it to your local pollie.
My point was regarding pre-industrial revolution times when children worked in mines for pennies.
You need to relax and see a little humour
You're humouring me
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Into everyone's life a little rain must fall. If everyone became as upset as you appear to be every time there was a strike, or any form of industrial action, then we would ALL be intolerant of each other
Aviation didn't exist then - point irrelevant.
I'm relaxed.
You're humouring me
You're humouring me
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You appear to me to be the one claiming to be hard done by P-A-F.
I believe you will find that almost to a man, the 89'ers accept full responsibility for their actions (unlike the "sign or else" scbas), which were quite legitimate and within the law - quite moderate in fact.
On the other hand you seem to want to deny us the same rights to which ALL other "ordinary" Australians were similarly able to avail themselves - and frequently did.
But you refrain from any comment on the rain that deluged the workers at Finlays Fish & Chip shop, as a result of the airlines totally shutting down ALL operations, Hawke temporarily altering the Australian Constitution, Hawke using the Armed Services vehicles and crews to asist his mates - Abeles and Murdoch.
If people you cited earlier - doctors, or lawyers for example - decided to take some form of limited action, are you likewise going to tear into them because they happen to have studied several years more than you were prepared to in order to gain a more responsible better paying job than they could have by just loafing along? (And please don't give me the sob story of "My parents couldn't afford to let me stay at skool". I know plenty of people who have furthered themselves because they WANTED to.)
Point irrelevant again - there were no "labour relations" during that period.
What does seem relevant is YOU appear to believe that Australian workers should be treated the same as those children working in the mines.
I feel your "concerns" for the workers at Kalbarri are nothing more than crocodile tears. Instead you are more than likely a money-orientated entrepeneur whose business was affected by those "greedy pilots".
Someone who has made his money on the backs of others, and resents the "ordinary" Australian from trying to rise to anything above ordinary, if it affects YOUR income.
Getting labour on the cheap is your specialty - unions are your bane.
Close to the mark?
I believe you will find that almost to a man, the 89'ers accept full responsibility for their actions (unlike the "sign or else" scbas), which were quite legitimate and within the law - quite moderate in fact.
On the other hand you seem to want to deny us the same rights to which ALL other "ordinary" Australians were similarly able to avail themselves - and frequently did.
But you refrain from any comment on the rain that deluged the workers at Finlays Fish & Chip shop, as a result of the airlines totally shutting down ALL operations, Hawke temporarily altering the Australian Constitution, Hawke using the Armed Services vehicles and crews to asist his mates - Abeles and Murdoch.
If people you cited earlier - doctors, or lawyers for example - decided to take some form of limited action, are you likewise going to tear into them because they happen to have studied several years more than you were prepared to in order to gain a more responsible better paying job than they could have by just loafing along? (And please don't give me the sob story of "My parents couldn't afford to let me stay at skool". I know plenty of people who have furthered themselves because they WANTED to.)
when children worked in mines for pennies.....My point related to labour relations. That did exist then.
What does seem relevant is YOU appear to believe that Australian workers should be treated the same as those children working in the mines.
I feel your "concerns" for the workers at Kalbarri are nothing more than crocodile tears. Instead you are more than likely a money-orientated entrepeneur whose business was affected by those "greedy pilots".
Someone who has made his money on the backs of others, and resents the "ordinary" Australian from trying to rise to anything above ordinary, if it affects YOUR income.
Getting labour on the cheap is your specialty - unions are your bane.
Close to the mark?
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Get a Dictionary
Pass-A-Frozo
You really need to get a dictionary, mate!
If the pilots are working, but only working 9-5, then they are NOT going on strike. You can call it "overtime bans" or "work to rule" (there are a couple of other terms) but they cannot be on strike if they are actually working.
But that's all right. You're in the airforce (Flying Hercules if I'm not mistaken). Or if you're not there now, you must have either flown Herc's or Orions to want a name like Pass-a-Frozo. (A "Frozo" is Airforce slang for the frozen meals that they eat, for those that didn't know)
Is that important? Possibly not. Or does it explain your pretty rabid "anti union/anti Labour" stance that you and almost everyone else in the ADF share?
You really need to get a dictionary, mate!
If the pilots are working, but only working 9-5, then they are NOT going on strike. You can call it "overtime bans" or "work to rule" (there are a couple of other terms) but they cannot be on strike if they are actually working.
But that's all right. You're in the airforce (Flying Hercules if I'm not mistaken). Or if you're not there now, you must have either flown Herc's or Orions to want a name like Pass-a-Frozo. (A "Frozo" is Airforce slang for the frozen meals that they eat, for those that didn't know)
Is that important? Possibly not. Or does it explain your pretty rabid "anti union/anti Labour" stance that you and almost everyone else in the ADF share?
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What a coincidence KaptinKlink!! I received my writ at 0138, so we must live (or did) next door to eachother. Let's get together for a beer. Writs at 0137/8??? Yeah right!
Now we're going to be inundated with one upmanshippers. I got my writ at 0100.. I can beat you I got mine at 0059. $hit I'm a loser I got mine at 0500, and so on. But we'd better get in and tell the AFAP to serve those resignations we don't want to lose our houses.
I can clear up the model engine quip for you relax. Ys120fz is the barnd and model of a model aircraft engine. YS is the manufacturer and it's 1.2 cu inch or about 2 bhp, and not sure what the fz is for.
But I don't fly model aircraft, it's a number plate I had whilst living in Spain some years ago. I don't know how it relates to you though.
It's a day of coincidences, and that if nothing else deserves a coldie KaptinKlink. C me on down.
Now we're going to be inundated with one upmanshippers. I got my writ at 0100.. I can beat you I got mine at 0059. $hit I'm a loser I got mine at 0500, and so on. But we'd better get in and tell the AFAP to serve those resignations we don't want to lose our houses.
I can clear up the model engine quip for you relax. Ys120fz is the barnd and model of a model aircraft engine. YS is the manufacturer and it's 1.2 cu inch or about 2 bhp, and not sure what the fz is for.
But I don't fly model aircraft, it's a number plate I had whilst living in Spain some years ago. I don't know how it relates to you though.
It's a day of coincidences, and that if nothing else deserves a coldie KaptinKlink. C me on down.